Twilight for the traditional ICE automobile

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

And that's your opinion too!

I think car enthusiasts are more than just what noise a car makes. Its about the handling, the drivability, balance and steering feedback.

And the example you have there is loud and fast. And costs more than my Tesla! And now, sadly, can't be had with a V8 either. Don't care for the V6 note.

Sure, a Lambo sounds great as well but heck, I'm a car enthusiast with a realistic budget.

I think they dropped the V6 - they wouldn't drop that v8 in a hurry.

personally id like ripping around a tight track in an old AE86 agree its about the handling, the drivability, balance and steering feedback.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

I think they dropped the V6 - they wouldn't drop that v8 in a hurry.

personally id like ripping around a tight track in an old AE86 agree its about the handling, the drivability, balance and steering feedback.

Yes, you are right that the V8 is still available. The search I did had no V8's in the country for the new model.

Have a look at these prices!

I didn't mind the AE86. But it needed way more power for my liking.

[kypez]

Bevsta007, Got to ask, have you driven a Tesla yet? Take a Model 3 Performance for a drive and then give me your thoughts. You might be surprised.

[Crazy Dazz]

As someone once said "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

As a kid we were told that by 2000 we'd all be driving electric cars. If anything it looks further away than ever.
Currently the only true enemy of ICE is politicians and idiots.
Twats who've somehow managed to accrue more money than sense, will buy hybrids to assuage their White Liberal guilt. And keyboard warriors will keep telling us how wonderful the Tisla is.
But the ICE will outlive them all.

It's like Coal. The Hippies hate it (and ironically with Good reason) yet we keep digging new mines and building new coal-fired power stations.

I also suspect, that as more Hybrids and EVs are sold, and their bull**** is exposed, their massive drawbacks will become public knowledge. And this may actually dampen future sales.

I'm actually curious as to how much improvement is possible in Battery technology. Is it ever actually going to rival the ICE?

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Its actually the economics/practicality perspective I'm looking at.
One of the largest supplies of oil used to come from Venezuela but due to Sanctions it not getting exported now.

from the worldometers site previously posted they have 1374 years of oil in reserve.

it costs nothing to fill your car up there but people cant afford their groceries, google what a big mac costs there..

I can assure you if another source runs out they will lift these sanctions

its always about the $$$

whilst the rich cities are buying EVs the poor ones are still filled with 2 strokes and old busses.

In exactly the same way when cars were first produced the poor couldn't afford them and continued to ride horses.
The demise and replacement of the ICE is inevitable and is happening now. I don't know what the tipping point is for the sceptics but industry, banks, car makers and governments are making the change already.
Grab onto random and tenuous reasons to deny that change is already happening or move with the times.
It's a bit like the Mabo native title deniers and haters who said we'd all lose our houses or backyards.
I'll say it again: people are terrified of change and become irrational with their fears and claims about it

[PG2]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

...


I also suspect, that as more Hybrids and EVs are sold, and their bull**** is exposed, their massive drawbacks will become public knowledge. And this may actually dampen future sales.

I'm actually curious as to how much improvement is possible in Battery technology. Is it ever actually going to rival the ICE?

Only quoted for reference.

Of course EVs will have their drawbacks, as with any change their will always be positives and negatives. Also, what someone will see as a positive someone else will see as a negative and vice versa.

Imagine in 50, 100, 200 years time, someone (probably your one of your great grand children) will be sitting at the pub with a couple of their mates and someone will say, "Hey, I was just googling how people used to get around before electric cars. They used to drive these things where you had to stop at a specified location that was oily and smelly and pump explosive liquid into your car. Imagine having to make a special trip somewhere every week just to refuel your car? Hahahaha..."

I suppose what I am getting at is, yes, people will need to change their habits to overcome these drawbacks but once those habits are changed people won't even think twice about them.

[Citroënbender]

Pubs in a hundred years?

More like the world government will just tweak the neurostimulation of our implanted devices so we feel better. :o Everything will be artificial; nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by xxx000

In exactly the same way when cars were first produced the poor couldn't afford them and continued to ride horses.
The demise and replacement of the ICE is inevitable and is happening now. I don't know what the tipping point is for the sceptics but industry, banks, car makers and governments are making the change already.
Grab onto random and tenuous reasons to deny that change is already happening or move with the times.
It's a bit like the Mabo native title deniers and haters who said we'd all lose our houses or backyards.
I'll say it again: people are terrified of change and become irrational with their fears and claims about it

never made any denial claims, go back and read my posts more carefully

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

Bevsta007, Got to ask, have you driven a Tesla yet? Take a Model 3 Performance for a drive and then give me your thoughts. You might be surprised.

ill let you know

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

never made any denial claims, go back and read my posts more carefully

a portion of my post was referring to your comments but the remainder was about other posts generally

[Crazy Dazz]

EVs are actually terrible, and I actually wonder if this will ever change?

One of the major pushes for EVs comes from the need for ZEVs in many major cities. NOx is the Achilles heel of the ICE, so unless that can be cured, there is going to be increasing demand for ZEVs. I can easily see many major cities banning passenger ICEs, with delivery trucks restricted to night times only.

The question is whether Batteries can rise to the occasion?
In the world of Physics, there's obviously not much new, certainly not as applies to batteries. Technology will improve manufacturing, management, and therefore efficiency and longevity, but I would love to know how much upside is left?

Lithium is a very expensive metal to mine. It's relatively rare, the grades are poor, and some of the ores are exceptionally hard.

What the hippies don't understand is that when you pay for a car, ignoring overheads and profit, mostly what you are paying for is labour and energy. And more and more the labour component is shrinking. Ultimately, when you trace it all back through, the cost comes down to energy.
So we need to,be very careful. If an EV is hugely financially unviable, there's a good chance it may also be ultimately energy inefficient.

[b0son]

I'm curious why more work isnt being done on synthetic fuels. It isnt feasible to replace the world's car fleet with BEV's, and the environmental cost to even attempt it would be horrific. But renewable fuels OTOH, no *new* CO2 going into the air, and getting more life out of an ageing car population.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

I'm curious why more work isnt being done on synthetic fuels. It isnt feasible to replace the world's car fleet with BEV's, and the environmental cost to even attempt it would be horrific. But renewable fuels OTOH, no *new* CO2 going into the air, and getting more life out of an ageing car population.

Cause CO2 is only a small part of the problem. Combustion has so many other gases (CO, NOx, etc) and particulates that are expelled that are a big problem as well.

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[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by b0son

I'm curious why more work isnt being done on synthetic fuels. It isnt feasible to replace the world's car fleet with BEV's, and the environmental cost to even attempt it would be horrific. But renewable fuels OTOH, no *new* CO2 going into the air, and getting more life out of an ageing car population.

Or a push towards E85 - it's a great interim step.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Or a push towards E85 - it's a great interim step.

Oil's Too cheap at the present Time for Ethanol or shale Oil ect to be a viable option...

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

Cause CO2 is only a small part of the problem. Combustion has so many other gases (CO, NOx, etc) and particulates that are expelled that are a big problem as well.

As big as the pollution associated with making BEVs?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

As big as the pollution associated with making BEVs?

It's like making solar panels. Yes, upfront energy is high but after that, it's great especially over its lifetime.

For the reduction in smog, particulate matter, health benefits, and other pollutants in cities, the studies seem to show that it's worth the move to EV and Hydrogen for heavy transport (think batteries will add too much weight wrt trucks).

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[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by kypez

It's like making solar panels. Yes, upfront energy is high but after that, it's great especially over its lifetime.

????? There's a scientific paper on the net that I can't refind at the moment but its conclusion was the carbon footprint to make a solar panel basically outweighed what it could possibly save in its lifetime.

For the reduction in smog, particulate matter, health benefits, and other pollutants in cities, the studies seem to show that it's worth the move to EV and Hydrogen for heavy transport (think batteries will add too much weight wrt trucks).

And the FOREVER pollution from the beloved wind turbines that supposedly can be used to recharge these EV's ?????

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2020...p-in-landfill/
.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

????? There's a scientific paper on the net that I can't refind at the moment but its conclusion was the carbon footprint to make a solar panel basically outweighed what it could possibly save in its lifetime.



And the FOREVER pollution from the beloved wind turbines that supposedly can be used to recharge these EV's ?????



https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2020...p-in-landfill/

.

That paper must be an old one as this changed earlier last decade. The cross over point past.

As for the wind turbines... Waste you can see vs waste you can't see.

Besides, even running a car purely on coal still emits less than petrol/diesel.

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[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by kypez

................As for the wind turbines... Waste you can see vs waste you can't see. .........

How interesting.

You go on an on about the benefits of EV's and their future role in eliminating ICE and associated waste and pollution yet waste from wind turbines, which you have previously espoused as being able to meet the future recharging needs of EV's is just flippant waste you can see!!!

The mind boggles.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by kypez

That paper must be an old one as this changed earlier last decade. The cross over point past.

As for the wind turbines... Waste you can see vs waste you can't see.

Besides, even running a car purely on coal still emits less than petrol/diesel.

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Wind Turbines are being recycled into cement, pellets and fibre walls for construction industries.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/ge-...veolia/591869/
https://blog.ucsusa.org/james-gignac...ades-recycling

Other companies working on fully recyclable blades for future use.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

How interesting.



You go on an on about the benefits of EV's and their future role in eliminating ICE and associated waste and pollution yet waste from wind turbines, which you have previously espoused as being able to meet the future recharging needs of EV's is just flippant waste you can see!!!



The mind boggles.

Think you have me mixed up with someone else...

Originally Posted by Wretched

Wind Turbines are being recycled into cement, pellets and fibre walls for construction industries.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/ge-...veolia/591869/
https://blog.ucsusa.org/james-gignac...ades-recycling

Other companies working on fully recyclable blades for future use.

Fake news! Didn't you read the link that ozrunner shared! Thats the only source of truth on the internet!

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by kypez

Think you have me mixed up with someone else...

Nope your words and you know it. Wind turbines and solar will provide the power for recharging EV's in place of diesel generators as per previous discussions re future recharging of EV's in Oz.

Fake news! Didn't you read the link that ozrunner shared! Thats the only source of truth on the internet!

I'm aware of those and can give you some other similar links if you wish. But I guess you forgot to also read the last few para's, ie I'll help you out with a sample

"In the end, the goal of increasing innovation towards additional use applications for retired turbine blades requires having enough market demand to incentivize the creation of facilities that can recycle the blades."

"..... it is currently less expensive to dispose of wind turbine blades in the closest landfill rather than the oftentimes long-distance transport required for recycling in the limited number of facilities that can process them efficiently."

"........announced a bold commitment to produce zero waste wind turbines by 2040. The company plans to achieve this by increasing recyclability over the next 20 years.........

Nobody's going to dig up the many thousands that have already been buried and will continue to be in all countries and at some stage probably also in Oz.

But hey it's only "waste you can see" until its buried that is.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

It's like making solar panels. Yes, upfront energy is high but after that, it's great especially over its lifetime.

If electricity generation is renewable. The improvement is not nearly as good if that electricity has to come from coal/etc.

The drop in Li ion battery prices is slowing. They're likely to be only 30% cheaper in today's terms over the next decade. That's not quite enough to bring BEVs to the mass market. We really need to approach like for like pricing, ICE vs BEV, for people below the median income to seriously consider making the switch.

And for tangible environmental impact, we need BEVs to be affordable at all market segments, not just mid-upper price brackets. Also, with an average car age of 10-12 years around the world, and with the number of buyers who DONT buy new cars often or ever, we need a solution. BEV wont address that for many years.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not at all against BEVs. I just dont think its an either/or proposition whether the environment is concerned.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

If electricity generation is renewable. The improvement is not nearly as good if that electricity has to come from coal/etc.

The drop in Li ion battery prices is slowing. They're likely to be only 30% cheaper in today's terms over the next decade. That's not quite enough to bring BEVs to the mass market. We really need to approach like for like pricing, ICE vs BEV, for people below the median income to seriously consider making the switch.

And for tangible environmental impact, we need BEVs to be affordable at all market segments, not just mid-upper price brackets. Also, with an average car age of 10-12 years around the world, and with the number of buyers who DONT buy new cars often or ever, we need a solution. BEV wont address that for many years.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not at all against BEVs. I just dont think its an either/or proposition whether the environment is concerned.

Yes. I don't think the current tech of batteries will get us to that transition point but we have to start somewhere. No different to when cars appeared and were expensive. To say the combustion engine is still the same concept after the countless iterations is doing it a great disservice. But its iterations were slightly slower.

Similarly, if we look at the iterations for EV's, they are much faster. The tech is constantly changing, the efficiencies are improving and pricing will adjust accordingly. Just in the 3 years of my ownership, I've seen how much has changed in that small window! Its crazy!

If we told people in the 70's that a 2 litre engine would put out more power than the V8's of the time in a few years, they simply wouldn't have the imagination to think it was possible. Heck, people of the 90's wouldn't have though it possible except for specialist bespoke applications.

Mother nature is going to take a hit. Just trying to make is the lesser of evils for now.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Nope your words and you know it.

you go on an on about the benefits of EV's and their future role in eliminating ICE

Again, you have me confused. I never said I wanted to eliminate ICE. I've got a Mustang Mach 1 on order. Please link me to where I said I want to see ICE eliminated. If you don't anything else you have to offer is moot.

[sr71]

I’ve got a Falcon (boat) that I have considered doing an Electric motor transplant. It’s a Thunderbird Falcon with a stern drive and 5.7L
Mercruiser. Tank and engine weigh about 300kg. Battery(70kWHr) and 260hp electric motor weigh 600kg. Boat carries 10, but I don’t have that many friends. Take away 4 x 75kg(300kg) people, gives me an electric boat capable of carrying 6 people.
Many emails to German company supplying Motor and battery pack, but wouldn’t give me a price. So I’m guessing $30-40k. It will probably cost me $1000 each time I go out on the water, over 3-4 years.
After a couple hours of skiing, I’ll need to connect it up to a 30kVA generator, to recharge.
Ahhh, the serenity... Until the salt water gets into the battery pack.. Then BOOM.
Silent boating and no fumes as you get into boat after a ski, would be good though.
My concern is that the batteries will be old tech in 5 years. The same weight with next generation batteries could get me more than 2 hours. Plus not as explosive when mixed with water.

[Crazy Dazz]

Firstly, don't ever expect the nouveau-hippies to be rational or logical. Therein lies the route to insanity.
They want us all to have solar panels and battery powered cars, but hate with a passion the mining industry that produces then.

They start foaming at the mouth if you so much as light a campfire on a beach, but want the government to build tidal power that requires the destruction of coastal habitat.

Prattling on about Carbon Emmisions is their religion, yet CO2 is the last thing you need to worry about.

They chain themselves to bulldozers to stop the construction of Smelters in Australia, so instead we burn oils to ship the ore to India and China, where it can be smelted without any environmental controls.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by kypez

Again, you have me confused. I never said I wanted to eliminate ICE. I've got a Mustang Mach 1 on order. Please link me to where I said I want to see ICE eliminated. If you don't anything else you have to offer is moot.

Ok we're backtracking to a former comment so apparently your “fake news” comment is now also just a moot point.

I could say the same. Show me where I said you actually want to see ICE eliminated. I did not say anything of the sort.

I said " You go on an on about the benefits of EV's and their future role in eliminating ICE". That is not saying you wanted ICE eliminated.

We can all recall you and your mate kmav23's constant former huge post barrage's basically doing Tesla's advertising for them to the extent they were virtually going to rule the car market.

It was interesting to note that you have now joined other members and dropped him like a hot spud. Also your basic views are now more congenial towards members.

But FYI past comments have espoused the view that ICE is on borrowed time, eg;

ICE will be around for trucking and rural but for city transport, it's becoming less and less relevant. Especially if the rest of the world embraces EVs, Australia will be forced to change or change to LHD to get legacy ICE.

I think the ICE is on borrowed time. I think the push to go electric is too strong especially with some of the timelines the European countries are outlining. As the price of EV's come down, most of the population will move to them for being cheap, easy to run and no servicing....They don't care for performance. Just something to get them from A to B

[kypez]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Ok we're backtracking to a former comment so apparently your “fake news” comment is now also just a moot point.

I could say the same. Show me where I said you actually want to see ICE eliminated. I did not say anything of the sort.

I said " You go on an on about the benefits of EV's and their future role in eliminating ICE". That is not saying you wanted ICE eliminated.

We can all recall you and your mate kmav23's constant former huge post barrage's basically doing Tesla's advertising for them to the extent they were virtually going to rule the car market.

It was interesting to note that you have now joined other members and dropped him like a hot spud. Also your basic views are now more congenial towards members.

But FYI past comments have espoused the view that ICE is on borrowed time, eg;

ICE will be around for trucking and rural but for city transport, it's becoming less and less relevant. Especially if the rest of the world embraces EVs, Australia will be forced to change or change to LHD to get legacy ICE.

I think the ICE is on borrowed time. I think the push to go electric is too strong especially with some of the timelines the European countries are outlining. As the price of EV's come down, most of the population will move to them for being cheap, easy to run and no servicing....They don't care for performance. Just something to get them from A to B

Like I said, you have me confused with someone else. My posts were never like that. I actually own the cars and was sharing my first hand experience with the product, something that others haven't done but still are more than happy to have an opinion on the subject.

And the last two, yeah, ICE is on borrowed time. I'm not in denial. I love my combustion engines and manual gearboxes but they are disappearing. And most people just don't care about cars, its just something to get from A to B. So if they can get a car that can do that for a lot less, why wouldn't they?

I think ICE should be relegated to weekend/enthusiast functions. EV for everything else. I wont argue for the sake of it when the maths really does add up in favour to moving to EV's. That's just being stubborn. I've put my money where my mouth is and have first hand experience, not some armchair commentator.