Minispool for street use, Safe??? - Page 3

SupahStah · 14-07-2006, 10:02 PM

Well the safty factor: mini spools are mainly for streight roads, not very practical for cornering. Especially in the wet; they are quick to loose grip (as your wheels are constantly fighting each other at the best of times - add a little accelleration and you could potentialy have a handful)...

I'd not go for one; unless for a dedicated drag machine. Not worth the worries, defects, and tyre wear :P

Long live LSD (there is a reason why they are more expensive, perhaps cuz its more practical? :P )

kyro_02 · 14-07-2006, 10:15 PM

LSD cones & **** wear out...
Spool, doesn't have the cones and crap ... so nothing wears out there .. tyres wear a little more... and bushes... all the usual stuff that would wear in a normal car, just takes less time.... it's not as worse as people make it out to be anyway, i have been in spooled cars and if you drive 'em right you don't have a problem...

oh and no you don't need to do a donut to turn around ... although you could but, you can turn around just with a little more use of the steering wheel

it's not the end of the world, though you should enjoy what you want to enjoy whilst you can :P

SupahStah · 14-07-2006, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyro_02

LSD cones & **** wear out...
Spool, doesn't have the cones and crap ... so nothing wears out there .. tyres wear a little more... and bushes... all the usual stuff that would wear in a normal car, just takes less time.... it's not as worse as people make it out to be anyway, i have been in spooled cars and if you drive 'em right you don't have a problem...

oh and no you don't need to do a donut to turn around ... although you could but, you can turn around just with a little more use of the steering wheel

it's not the end of the world, though you should enjoy what you want to enjoy whilst you can :P

I guess it is all prefference; on one hand you have an LSD, that does wear a little if u flog it... and will cost you $400 once it is fully shot to reco it. But LSDs will take years of floging. Just ask my old ZK fairlane... I dont see the gain in a spool over a tight LSD for street vehilcles... mybad :P

Eu-GenixX · 15-07-2006, 12:22 AM

i'd like more info on this lokka.. seems to be pretty good... sounds like lsd is better over minispool...

kyro_02 · 15-07-2006, 08:45 AM

Detroit locker vs LSD

Detroit locker vs spool

Detroit locker unlocks when going around a corner (providing you get off the gas with a little leeway, eg; don't expect it to unluck when you take the gas off straight away, but give it time to fully unlock)... it's on their website: http://detroitlocker.com/ProductsPage.htm

you could always invest in an air locker instead, but with a price tag :P

Quote:

I guess it is all prefference; on one hand you have an LSD, that does wear a little if u flog it... and will cost you $400 once it is fully shot to reco it

just ask josh 'bout his lsd lasting a weeks worth of burnouts :P

Eu-GenixX · 15-07-2006, 11:17 AM

detroit locker is different to the lokka i was talking about isn't it?

kyro_02 · 15-07-2006, 11:32 AM

http://www.4wdsystems.com.au/html/lokka.htm

1. LOKKA has only 4 main parts - a pair of Driver and a Coupler (side) gears for each axle, there are some springs and pins, some have spacers.

2. LOKKA is normally in a fully locked state and only allows differential action by uncoupling the unit when the ground driven force acting on a wheel (either during turning or when negotiating obstacles) forces that wheel to turn faster than the other driven wheel.
ie a turning vehicle's wheels actually travel two different paths with the inside wheel turning in one circle while the outside wheel travels in a larger circle, and therefore faster.

3. LOKKA makes use of two distinctly different sets of opposing forces that exist due to its design - one to dynamically couple the gears when engine torque is applied and the other to uncouple the gears when one wheel overruns.

3a. The locking (coupling) force is applied by the action of the pinion cross shaft acting on a uniquely designed and shaped Driver - the more torque that is applied the harder the unit locks.

3b. The unlocking (uncoupling) action occurs due to the ramping effect between the low profile ramped teeth which force the Driver away from the Coupler (side gear) eg when an outside wheel turns faster than than an inside wheel when cornering. Power continues to be applied to the inside axle. As the turn is completed and the wheels again rotate at the same speed, the outside coupler re-engages.

4. It should be understood that only when there is an external force being applied to a wheel to make it turn faster than the rest of the drive train will LOKKA allow one wheel to differentiate. Slippery surfaces where one wheel would normally break traction in an open diff cause LOKKA to stay locked - even with one or both wheels in the air LOKKA will remain locked.

The key to the LOKKA's smooth performance is a function of the extremely low profile "driver and coupler" gear sets acting together with the advanced mechanical principal which causes the dynamic engagement and disengagement of the axles. In addition LOKKA's design allows it to relock almost instantaneously meaning that the locking and relocking happen quickly and without harsh noisy action.

LOKKA's operation and effectiveness in comparison to other differentials is summarised below.

Open Differentials and Limited Slip Differentials (LSD's) are designed to distribute enqine torque proportionately to the wheels, allowing the wheels to travel at different rotational speeds when cornering on hard road surfaces or travelling over very uneven ground.

basically does similar to the detroit locker when it is also designed to release when cornering but apply power it will lock... it just doesn't have cones and crap to wear out; whereas lsd does.

Rollin · 15-07-2006, 01:26 PM

I have a Lokka in my car and I am extrememly happy with it. you can fit them to an open diff, so there is a plentiful supply at the wreckers should you blow one apart.

when cornering normally its quite and doesn't attract attention, but if you accelerate, depending on how much you gas it, is either skips the inside wheel or starts to go sideways...its awesome because you know if you dont gas it, it will act like an open center and be nice, if you acclerate a little it wil start to skip, and if you nail it, it will step out...its impossible to single wheel, meaning its very very predictable.

I wore out a freshly rebuilt LSD in 3 track days, even though I changed the oil straight after each day....total waste of a $h!tload of money on the LSD.

LOKKA RULES!

BOOSTDEF I will take you for a drive on wednesday at willowbank and you will love it

buy one and we will put it in in my garage man...

kyro_02 · 15-07-2006, 01:28 PM

lockers an spools rule Fo' sure !

Walkinshaw · 15-07-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollin

I have a Lokka in my car and I am extrememly happy with it. you can fit them to an open diff, so there is a plentiful supply at the wreckers should you blow one apart.

when cornering normally its quite and doesn't attract attention, but if you accelerate, depending on how much you gas it, is either skips the inside wheel or starts to go sideways...its awesome because you know if you dont gas it, it will act like an open center and be nice, if you acclerate a little it wil start to skip, and if you nail it, it will step out...its impossible to single wheel, meaning its very very predictable.

I wore out a freshly rebuilt LSD in 3 track days, even though I changed the oil straight after each day....total waste of a $h!tload of money on the LSD.

LOKKA RULES!

BOOSTDEF I will take you for a drive on wednesday at willowbank and you will love it

buy one and we will put it in in my garage man...

Did you start with a 2 or 4pinion open centre diff??

Eu-GenixX · 15-07-2006, 03:07 PM

nice..

where did you get the lokka? and how much did you pay for it?

Rollin · 15-07-2006, 06:01 PM

4 pinion - i believe the one for the borg warner diffs fit any BW diff, and the spline or pinion count doesn't matter. However, a 2 pinion diff would most likely just shear the pinion and you would go nowhere.

so long as the number of teeth on the side gears is the same as the lokka it will fit IMHO.

i will try get some pics of mine as i was putting it together after i finish this post.

I didnt buy the lokka by itself, I bought a 3.7:1 28 spline EA diff and pulled it apart, sold all the bits of the diff and put the lokka in an ED 3.27 open diff, but i think walkinshaw has some prices.

Rollin · 15-07-2006, 06:41 PM

Here is a quick pic I found, with some additions to make it easier to see what im on about:

[img]hxxp://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/208000-208999/208143_172_full.jpg[/img]

As you can see, the 3 pins go through the holes in the center of the two halves of the lokka, so when you accelerate or decelerate the pins force the halves apart which makes the teeth lock into the side gears on the axles, providing 100% drive to both of them.

when you turn a corner NOT under power the side gear 'ramps' of the gears push the halves of the lokka away and then turn independently of the lokka.

works well - all the good bits of a spooled diff but without the small matter of being illegal or making parking and low speed turns a PITA

dansedgli · 15-07-2006, 06:44 PM

What does one of those cost rollin?

Ive got access to a free rear axle out of a commodore, it appears to be way cheaper than a 9 inch conversion.

Walkinshaw · 15-07-2006, 06:53 PM

wow that looks diffrent to the lokka for the 4wd's. In those you keep the spider gears and the axles slide into Lokka specific cam gears. This system looks very easy. a 2pin design would be very weak i believe.

Cost = $598 last time i priced it.

Suppose I'd better find out if i have a 2 or a 4pin setup (im guessing 2pin)

STOKEB · 15-07-2006, 07:59 PM

i have only ever snaped 2 axels first it was the right one but that was after like 3 years worth of driving on them and the left one broke in the wet..

kyro_02 · 15-07-2006, 09:27 PM

they just standard axels yeah? 28 spline ?? thats pretty good 3 years

Rollin · 16-07-2006, 12:29 AM

Walkinshaw what car do you have? unless its an X-series I highly doubt you would have a 2 pinion center...

Walkinshaw · 16-07-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollin

Walkinshaw what car do you have? unless its an X-series I highly doubt you would have a 2 pinion center...

1997 EL Fairmont 3.23:1 Open (i asumed that it would be 2pin 28spline open hemi)

Rollin · 16-07-2006, 04:26 PM

im pretty sure all falcons from EA onwards were 4 pinion mate - your car will definately have a 4 pinion. I don't know how a lokka would go with an auto but i reckon it would work pretty well, probably even better than a manual, drivability-wise.

Gammaboy · 16-07-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollin

im pretty sure all falcons from EA onwards were 4 pinion mate - your car will definately have a 4 pinion. I don't know how a lokka would go with an auto but i reckon it would work pretty well, probably even better than a manual, drivability-wise.

They run much more smoothly with an auto. I've got a Richmond Gear "Powertrax" in my 9" and with a bit of driveline shunt through the toploader its a real pig around carparks, but I suspect something is not quite right with it so I'm going to pull it apart and check it out.

STOKEB · 16-07-2006, 07:58 PM

Yeah standard 28 spin axels in my car.. the left one lasted longer then the right one

Eu-GenixX · 16-07-2006, 08:40 PM

Rollin

how long have you had the lokka in your car? and what is the driveability like?

i'm not too keen on the idea of a spool.. and finding an lsd and rebuilding it will be expensive... does the lokka feel similar to an lsd?

kyro_02 · 16-07-2006, 09:18 PM

single spinners, during a burnout or drift will ( in my case) switch from one side to the other and fling you around ... so when the spool gets fitted hope next time at winton i won't have any spinning out issues :P

blv · 16-07-2006, 09:49 PM

just to clarify how strong standard axles can be, my brother has a mitsubishi sigma with 353rwhp. he is running a commodore B/W (same as e series housing) with a romac billet full spool, 3.9:1 gear from an R31 skyline and shortened 28 spline HQ 1 tonner axles. After over a dozen high 11 sec passes under his belt with 5000rpm+ launches with Mickey Thompson ET Streets 26x9.5x15, he hasn't snapped an alxe yet. We have stripped the splines out of 2 mini spools and snapped 4 VN 28 spline axles though, but the HQ 1 tonner axles are thicker from teh spline to the bearing carrier.

FOr street duties, run tyres on the front that are grippier (eg, wider, better compound etc) and you wont really notice a spool too much. If it does start to understeer, a quick stab on the gas usually brings the *** out and makes the front bite in.

Next piont is V8 supercars run Full spools. so they cant be too bad for handling, you just need to not feed the gas on too hard out of corners.

FYI, my corolla has a CA18det in it pushing just on 200rwhp and im using an XB leaf sprung housing, 4.11:1 pintara gears, rebuilt EL XR6 LSD centre, and even it slips when doing a doughnut on cambered surface with 2 ppl in the car. Straight line though it peels 2 all the time. oh plus the sigma i mentioned earlier, burnt out 2 Lsd's within a fortnight, so they dont cop too much HP.

kyro_02 · 16-07-2006, 10:06 PM

if you're un lucky, there was a car today at winton who took of normal to get on track and the whole *** end was bouncing cause of an axel breakage lol, couldn't go over like 40kmh

Hotwire · 16-07-2006, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollin

im pretty sure all falcons from EA onwards were 4 pinion mate - your car will definately have a 4 pinion. I don't know how a lokka would go with an auto but i reckon it would work pretty well, probably even better than a manual, drivability-wise.

Dan's (Walkinshaw) monty has been converted to manual ;)

SupahStah · 16-07-2006, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyro_02

Detroit locker vs LSD

Detroit locker vs spool

Detroit locker unlocks when going around a corner (providing you get off the gas with a little leeway, eg; don't expect it to unluck when you take the gas off straight away, but give it time to fully unlock)... it's on their website: http://detroitlocker.com/ProductsPage.htm

you could always invest in an air locker instead, but with a price tag :P

just ask josh 'bout his lsd lasting a weeks worth of burnouts :P

Week worth of standstills? I am talking about flogging, and the people who rebuilt it - obviosly didnt realise it was to have the clutch droped 20 times a day... And when a LSD gets rebuilt, and its not given any time to run in - it will destroy streight away... if he gave it 2 weeks to wear in - it'd neva have gone single spinner (again) - hence why they said "This is the last time, next time u can get F*ked... :P

Rollin · 17-07-2006, 01:19 AM

Eu-GenixX - its been in there for about 13 or 14 thousand kilometers, no dramas yet.

As Gammaboy stated, you get a bit of driveline shunt at low speeds, like when parking etc, but thats a trade-off I'm more than willing to deal with for a diff that I know will kick 2 wheels whenever I want, every single time, no matter what the road conditions or vehicle loading conditions are.

You could have slicks on, with one wheel on ice and the other on a VHT prepard surface, pop the clutch at 5000rpm and (provided the axle doesn't snap like a toothpick) it will spin both wheels.

As I have previously stated, I got my LSD rebuilt by mall wood automotive (who did a great job) a few weeks prior to a couple of track days. Even though I changed the oil straight after each track day the center was still cactus after probably 4 hours on the track (just over an hour per track day). It was a total waste of money - nothing to di with Mall Wood of course, its just that these LSDs are designed to aid traction pretty much only when launching...one you start doing burnouts and drifting they just die very very fast :(

TUFED6 · 17-07-2006, 07:51 AM

Everyone has a different idea of what is streetable, I don't find the spool to be too bad though. It can suck parking, thats about the only thing I would really complain about though.

If you find it starting to push at low speeds you just have to give the throttle a stab to get it to tuck in again.

I hadn't heard of the Lokka's when I was getting my diff built, would probably go that direction next time though.

- John