Why are Toyotas so reliable (and boring).

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Not for Twelve Months, Though..!!

Whats 15M long and smells like ****?

The bus I'll be taking

I'm not fat enough for the mobility scooter (yet).

Might come back from the dead with a Toyota Camry or something.






The 3.5L V6 one.............

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

1JZGTE/2JZGTE though mind you a lot of the legwork there was done by Yamaha on the engine design.

yep and people have no idea or the thought the links with Honda/Showa as well re the Jap car industry.
Look at Jap bikes regards to reliability/build generally compared to Euro/American.
Its all links and similar market trends.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Watch this . . . . . . . . Commodore dies after a few minutes, AU keeps going until it is dark


https://youtu.be/hR6sKfaBlGM

I've seen that video a few times but will gladly watch it again. I've had enough E series - AU Falcons to know just how stout the sohc I6 is. The design updates they did for the AU engine further made it into one of the most dependable engines ever made. I had a v6 VS Commodore for a year or so - a year of pure single peg mang mang. I got the VS for free so don't judge me.

The Buick V6 in VR Commodores is a much worse engine than the later Ecotech. I'm sure an Ecotech would have lasted a lot longer than the Buick in the video linked - the AU engine still would've outlasted it with ease though.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

I've seen that video a few times but will gladly watch it again. I've had enough E series - AU Falcons to know just how stout the sohc I6 is. The design updates they did for the AU engine further made it into one of the most dependable engines ever made. I had a v6 VS Commodore for a year or so - a year of pure single peg mang mang. I got the VS for free so don't judge me.

The Buick V6 in VR Commodores is a much worse engine than the later Ecotech. I'm sure an Ecotech would have lasted a lot longer than the Buick in the video linked - the AU engine still would've outlasted it with ease though.

I offended a someone on another forum regarding that horrible Buick V6. I told it how it is, these were rough, uncouth, poorly refined, noisy buckets of nasty GM cost cutting iron rubbish. Seems he thought otherwise, which is pure fantasy. Oh, sure they made good torque and were reliable, but I would rather Toyota's idea of reliable, at least they bake in some refinement into the mix.

[Franco Cozzo]

I think the absolute worst offender of the 3.8L V6 Fiasco is the L67 - the supercharged variant.

What a boat anchor, outpowered and out torqued by an NA Barra.

Stout engine paired with one of those hand driers in the cinema crappers.

We should have got the 3.8L/4.3L Buick V6 turbo variations fitted to Buick Grand National or GMC Syclone.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I think the absolute worst offender of the 3.8L V6 Fiasco is the L67 - the supercharged variant.

What a boat anchor, outpowered and out torqued by an NA Barra.

To be fair the L67 was at the end of its life by the time Barra was released, against the Intech 4.0l motors it actually stood up in power and torque, to match it you had to tick the VCT/5M box on AU order forms.
The LS1 was Holdens focus by then anyway.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Just as your mention of the Maserati, you love it but after a while your sick of fixing it, takes a week to repair, its not the bucks its the inconvenience.

But that's my point.
To own a Maserati, I would either be a trained Maserati Mechanic who loved fixing them, OR
I would have enough money to get things fixed properly, by experts, and to not be bothered with managing the process, and not worry that it was gone for weeks or even months.
I highlight the Maserati, precisely because of the juxtaposition between desirability and reliability, but you can interpolate to other brands.

Whilst Toyota has been incredibly successful, i think this makes their failures stand out even more, especially their indecipherable failures to understand their own market.

I also think they have done their own brand Lexus, a huge disservice, with their persistent marketing of twat-mobiles.
On the one hand, they have tried to create their own, stand alone, Luxury brand. Replete with exclusive dealerships and (some admittedly brilliant) bespoke models.
But on the other, they don't seem to want to break the link, and in the past have insisted on trotting our tarted-up Toyotas that offer no advantage over their cheaper siblings.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

To be fair the L67 was at the end of its life by the time Barra was released, against the Intech 4.0l motors it actually stood up in power and torque, to match it you had to tick the VCT/5M box on AU order forms.
The LS1 was Holdens focus by then anyway.

Even then the only difference with a VCT SOHC is it has a rudimentary solenoid to advance/retard the camshaft, its still naturally aspirated, and the L67 has the benefit of a positive displacement supercharger hairdryer

Even if it had the SOHC 4L beat in power and torque, it wasn't by much, and when they had two engines in the GM family that they could have probably used that predate the AU Falcon by a decade to 15 years depending on what variation you picked.

A turbo 209KW/475NM 4.3L V6 in 1991, or the same turbo Buick 3.8L V6 with 205KW/450NM in 1987.

Imagine if the VN launched in the 1980s with the turbo Buick 3.8L V6? Had sequential fuel injection back then too.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...l-gnx-history/

https://www.drivingline.com/articles...cle-car-motor/

Holden had already dabbled with turbo technology with Nissan RB30ET prior to the VN.

Feels like a massive lost opportunity, or maybe given Ford Australia had dumped the V8 in the 1980s and suffered a hit, they didn't want to show up their own boat anchor 'new and improved' 304.

Kinda reminds me of the Boss 260 v Barra Turbo debacle, is the Boss 260 a boat anchor or is the Barra Turbo just amazing?

Street Machine Supermang series really shows up how crap that factory supercharger is, I think its an Eaton M90, absolute hairdryer, if they used something like the Eaton M112 or M122 from the same supercharger family which have more displacement, would probably be a different story.

I think the L67 was originally intended for transverse mounting FWD applications, that engine sans supercharger and with turbo would have been MINT I tell ya.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Street Machine Supermang series really shows up how crap that factory supercharger is, I think its an Eaton M90, absolute hairdryer, if they used something like the Eaton M112 or M122 from the same supercharger family which have more displacement, would probably be a different story.

Talking about Eaton M122, I had one from a GT500 Mustang sitting in my garage, that I traded to my tuner in exchange to have my bare new old stock VT heads worked and fitted out with valve springs and stainless steel valves.

It ended up on an AU SOHC 4L and with the factory pulley it punched out 24 PSI



There it is, changed to the Gilmer drive pulley

[Paull]

Technically, or academically speaking, the Japanese way of management leading into the 1980's was that of Z Theory management. As a part of this was that of management of tolerances. In short, most, if not all of the US automobile manufacturers would both manage via acceptable tolerances or, look at the risk v. potential outcome and then carry out a cost/benefit review. In short, failure was allowed/factored in. However, for the Z Theory of management was working to a zero tolerance, that is, do not allow for failures.

I am thinking that this is what saw Toyota rise to the top in reliability stakes and as mentioned above, and I would agree with, the 80 Series LC was pretty much the best that we have seen of Toyota. They are not as good as what they used to be e.g. Hilux/Prado 4 cylinder DPF issues. Am thinking that although they were extremely reliable, in the past, perhaps not so much now due to cost. However, people typically know Toyota as not only a reliable product but also one that always has good resale (generally speaking). Toyota owners will also typically know of/hear of, utterly crap after sales service/support usually provided by Holden/Ford and a whole slew of others.

With the above in mind, and as most people are not "car people", they want reliability with good resale, hence Toyota's getting the nod.

[Trevor 57]

Post WWII Japanese 'quality systems set up in Japan were set up by an American by the name of W. Edwards Deming

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Even then the only difference with a VCT SOHC is it has a rudimentary solenoid to advance/retard the camshaft, its still naturally aspirated, and the L67 has the benefit of a positive displacement supercharger hairdryer

Even if it had the SOHC 4L beat in power and torque, it wasn't by much, and when they had two engines in the GM family that they could have probably used that predate the AU Falcon by a decade to 15 years depending on what variation you picked.

A turbo 209KW/475NM 4.3L V6 in 1991, or the same turbo Buick 3.8L V6 with 205KW/450NM in 1987.

Imagine if the VN launched in the 1980s with the turbo Buick 3.8L V6? Had sequential fuel injection back then too.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...l-gnx-history/

https://www.drivingline.com/articles...cle-car-motor/

Holden had already dabbled with turbo technology with Nissan RB30ET prior to the VN.

Feels like a massive lost opportunity, or maybe given Ford Australia had dumped the V8 in the 1980s and suffered a hit, they didn't want to show up their own boat anchor 'new and improved' 304.

Kinda reminds me of the Boss 260 v Barra Turbo debacle, is the Boss 260 a boat anchor or is the Barra Turbo just amazing?

Street Machine Supermang series really shows up how crap that factory supercharger is, I think its an Eaton M90, absolute hairdryer, if they used something like the Eaton M112 or M122 from the same supercharger family which have more displacement, would probably be a different story.

I think the L67 was originally intended for transverse mounting FWD applications, that engine sans supercharger and with turbo would have been MINT I tell ya.

You’re correct about your suspicion, the L67 was an easier, more compactly dressed engine.
The earlier Buick GNX Turbo was a monster of a car, the power was grossly under stated at 276 hp, when the atmo versions were making around 240 hp (180 kw), estimations at the time were around 247 kw and 0-60 mph in 4.7 seconds.. I think Wheels confirmed that when they did the VL commodore to USA challenge…to say it was more like the BA XR6T tune would be more appropriate..and yeah, the GNX was jaw droppingly fast against the 5.0 VL…

[roddy1960]

Toyotas may very well be reliable...not questioning that . I have no interest with them though . I have traveled in a few over the years , I drove my neighbours Toyota Seca a few times for him when he was getting sick before he passed away . It was immaculately maintained , late 1990's model and was a five speed manual with the 1.8 litre engine if remember right . Before he went into a respite home in 2009 I'd take him shopping in it by his request pretty often . He sold it after he gave in his licence . It was actually nice to drive , good performance , economical had a nice level of trim but I could never get myself to buy one .

If I was ever to buy a Japanese or Korean car the only one I'd realistically consider would be something from Honda for some reason . Nissan , Subaru, Mitsubishi , Mazda , Hyundai , Kia etc. I have literally zero interest in . Despite them all being well built , no doubt reliable not least Toyota , tons of tech, they just don't float the boat for me .

I still and always will love these old barges though ..I might be an idiot but every time I drive one of my pair of the birds it puts a smile on my face and remain happy idiot perhaps . Even with our current 95 price at $2.31 and 98 at $2.36 as of last night . Cheers all from the village idiot who still loves Falcons ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwZYw35JkJY ..


Cheers all .

[jpd80]

Toyota is now an established brand with multi generation repeat audience, much the way Holden was in the ‘70s and ‘80s where many buyers didn’t question the notion of Holden reliability that grew on the back of sales and service in the 50s and 60s.

The irony was that Holden and to a lesser degree Ford had the market to themselves, mostly because of trade tariffs holding back imports. Once the door was wedged open, buyers got a look at what real quality looked like.. what killed the locals wasn’t Commodore or Falcon/Territory, it was all the other products they tried to sell against quality committed Toyota.

Currently, Toyota’s quality is no better or worse than brands in the top ten, it’s just that they don’t have to prove that every day.. Holden is no more as a local brand and that is all their own doing, not Toyota or any other brand, anything that “Holden” may be selling today is purely niche products to buyers willing to pay a fortune for what they want…god bless them.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

much the way Holden was in the ‘70s and ‘80s where many buyers didn’t question the notion of Holden reliability that grew on the back of sales and service in the 50s and 60s.

I certainly didn't question their reliablity in the 70s and 80s because they were just that, a great reliable car.
Personally, it only changed for me when they introduced that little car by comparison, the Commodore.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Currently, Toyota’s quality is no better or worse than brands in the top ten, it’s just that they don’t have to prove that every day.

This is 100% correct, but very few of the buying public know this.

Dr Terry

[Warrenk]

I think Toyota or their followers don't say to much about failures, but every now and then someone says something which can expose the truth about some models. I was reading a thread on a caravan forum about an owner of a 200 series Landcruiser which had covered less than 150,000 klm. The motor started to play up on a trip last year. The motor kept going into limp mode(these were similar issue other Landcruiser owners were having which he read on LCOOL forum). He eventually found a company that had a good reputation. They diagnosed a faulty turbo charger and other was not too far away from failing, also some of the injectors were outside of specs. Two new turbos and 8 injectors replaced. All well until Christmas. A failed motor which had been dusted due to the air intake system. They say it is a known problem in these vehicles. Waiting for a new motor for the vehicle along with(his words) "a bucketload of people ". So Toyota reliabilty maybe a perception other than reality. If you one of the owners what more can you other than "Oh what a feeling".

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Warrenk

I think Toyota or their followers don't say to much about failures, but every now and then someone says something which can expose the truth about some models. I was reading a thread on a caravan forum about an owner of a 200 series Landcruiser which had covered less than 150,000 klm. The motor started to play up on a trip last year. The motor kept going into limp mode(these were similar issue other Landcruiser owners were having which he read on LCOOL forum). He eventually found a company that had a good reputation. They diagnosed a faulty turbo charger and other was not too far away from failing, also some of the injectors were outside of specs. Two new turbos and 8 injectors replaced. All well until Christmas. A failed motor which had been dusted due to the air intake system. They say it is a known problem in these vehicles. Waiting for a new motor for the vehicle along with(his words) "a bucketload of people ". So Toyota reliabilty maybe a perception other than reality. If you one of the owners what more can you other than "Oh what a feeling".

That 4.5L V8 TD is an absolute turd, its probably more related to the ancillaries rather than the engine itself, seems to have an appetite for injectors, and injectors for common rail diesel engines aren't cheap.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Toyota is now an established brand with multi generation repeat audience, much the way Holden was in the ‘70s and ‘80s

It's not really the same. Toyota had to create their own "loyalty", and they did this by creating this whole legend around "Reliability"
People don't buy Toyotas because they grew up with them, they buy them because they believe the reliability hype.
And why not?
I definitely buy my appliances based on reliability (It's why to date I've had a home full of Bosch, although they have gone downhill recently with their cheaper stuff.) For someone who views a car as just another appliance then, Toyota makes sense, and they make cars accordingly.

Originally Posted by jpd80

The irony was that Holden and to a lesser degree Ford had the market to themselves, mostly because of trade tariffs holding back imports.

But that's not how the tariffs worked.
One of the things Toyota has been very good at globally, is adapting to the local laws.
The tariffs protected manufacturers with Australian Production. Back in the day this included every man and his dog. Toyota developed and maintained a big local presence, used that to their advantage, and were in fact far more adept at exploiting the Australian Government than Ford or Holden.
Remember the Avalon (aka "The Giant Turd")? That abomination was basically paid for by the Victorian Government.
Gillard paid Toyota Squillions to "Develop an Australian Hybrid" so they started flogging locally assembled versions of the Camry Hybrid.
Ford actually turned down, and gave back money, earmarked for the Focus production, because it didn't fit their global modelling.

The Fundamental Difference, is that Japan lost the war.
This convinced the (smart) Japanese that they needed to do things differently, whilst reinforcing American Arrogance.
Toyota figured out that in order to dominate the world, they had to be adaptable and do what worked best in every market.
Ford & GM are still preoccupied with the USA Market. (Just look at GM. They have completely abandoned not just the RHD market, but Europe as well.) And like Rubes everywhere they are fixated on the Chinese Market, not realising that unless they fundamentally change their approach, they'll eventually get outmanoeuvred there too.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

That 4.5L V8 TD is an absolute turd, its probably more related to the ancillaries rather than the engine itself,

Have a think about where LC's are supposedly designed to operate.
Then have a look at where they have put the Alternator

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Have a think about where LC's are supposedly designed to operate.
Then have a look at where they have put the Alternator

Indeed, I have had the misfortune of replacing an alternator and A/C compressor on a 200 series before - RIP Franco

Alternators love getting submerged in muddy water

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Have a think about where LC's are supposedly designed to operate.
Then have a look at where they have put the Alternator

See more of em driving around town sparkling clean than where they are designed to be. So id imagine that the alternator wouldnt be an issue for many

Id still own one no worries. But it'd be used as intended, not fit a big exhaust on it and think its fast cause its loud, seen a few trying to 'race' other cars

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by DJM83

See more of em driving around town sparkling clean than where they are designed to be. So id imagine that the alternator wouldnt be an issue for many

Id still own one no worries. But it'd be used as intended, not fit a big exhaust on it and think its fast cause its loud, seen a few trying to 'race' other cars

I saw this at Highpoint Shopping Centre yesterday,



Does this belong to anyone here? VIC Police going to have a field day with that

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I saw this at Highpoint Shopping Centre yesterday,

image

Does this belong to anyone here? VIC Police going to have a field day with that

Planning a trip to the Cape perhaps. Otway that is.

On subject....reliable Camry next door.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

It's not really the same. Toyota had to create their own "loyalty", and they did this by creating this whole legend around "Reliability"
People don't buy Toyotas because they grew up with them, they buy them because they believe the reliability hype.
And why not?
I definitely buy my appliances based on reliability (It's why to date I've had a home full of Bosch, although they have gone downhill recently with their cheaper stuff.) For someone who views a car as just another appliance then, Toyota makes sense, and they make cars accordingly.

Oh for Pete’s sake can’t you see that growing up in a family with Toyotas and their reliability seen first hand rubs off on those kids and their kids. That’s exactly what happened and it is similar to how Ford and Holden were seen as reliable in the 60s and equally why so many turned their backs on Holden and Ford when offered a choice.

But that's not how the tariffs worked.
One of the things Toyota has been very good at globally, is adapting to the local laws.
The tariffs protected manufacturers with Australian Production. Back in the day this included every man and his dog. Toyota developed and maintained a big local presence, used that to their advantage, and were in fact far more adept at exploiting the Australian Government than Ford or Holden.
Remember the Avalon (aka "The Giant Turd")? That abomination was basically paid for by the Victorian Government.
Gillard paid Toyota Squillions to "Develop an Australian Hybrid" so they started flogging locally assembled versions of the Camry Hybrid.
Ford actually turned down, and gave back money, earmarked for the Focus production, because it didn't fit their global modelling.

In 1972, Toyota and Nissan applied for local manufacturing licences, that helped the situation but als Whitlam government first proposed reducing the 57% tariff on imported vehicles, so then all the Escorts, Cortinas and Geminis being produced then had competition that progressively had better pricing, stifling the business plan of locally manufactures smaller vehicles, the first to dies off…

Once the imports achieved their goal of consigning local manufacturing to history, we see prices slowly increasing up to the point that compact cars and SUVS have prices approaching or even exceeding the starting prices of Falcons and Commodores….not that many remember that a few short years after the demise of local manufacturing…

The Fundamental Difference, is that Japan lost the war.
This convinced the (smart) Japanese that they needed to do things differently, whilst reinforcing American Arrogance.
Toyota figured out that in order to dominate the world, they had to be adaptable and do what worked best in every market.
Ford & GM are still preoccupied with the USA Market. (Just look at GM. They have completely abandoned not just the RHD market, but Europe as well.) And like Rubes everywhere they are fixated on the Chinese Market, not realising that unless they fundamentally change their approach, they'll eventually get outmanoeuvred there too.

Already happening but worse, the Koreans are falling for the same stupid trap. interestingly, increased prices of new vehicles in the US by tightening supplies has been good for all manufacturers, engineering that situation to remain with continuing tight inventory levels now seems to be the objective of Ford and GM much to the chagrin of buyers who fear that those once common $5k end of model incentives are now gone forever…

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Oh for Pete’s sake can’t you see that growing up in a family with Toyotas and their reliability seen first hand rubs off on those kids and their kids. That’s exactly what happened and why so many turned their backs on Holden and Ford.


In 1972, Toyota and Nissan applied for local manufacturing licences, that helped the situation but als Whitlam government first proposed reducing the 57% tariff on imported vehicles, so then all the Escorts, Cortinas and Geminis being produced he had competition that suddenly had better pricing.

Once the imports achieved their goal of consigning local manufacturing to history, we see prices slowly increasing up to the point that compact cars and SUVS have prices approaching or even exceeding the starting prices of Falcons and Commodores….not that many remember that a few short years after the demise of local manufacturing…


Already happening but worse, the Koreans are falling for the same stupid trap. interestingly, increased prices of new vehicles in the US by tightening supplies has been good for all manufacturers, engineering that situation to remain with continuing tight inventory levels now seems to be the objective of Ford and GM much to the chagrin of buyers who fear that this $5k end of model incentives are now gone forever…

I remember through the 70s, 80s and possibly 90s the Japanese stuff had the added bells and whistles.
Stuff which was usually optional for Aussie cars but we all agreed at the time how much quality was still missing from the overall finish at the time.
The local stuff all had decent rounded interior door panels, upholstered all the way up to the window belts while we considered the cheap imported stuff still had painted upper door finishes and thin by comparison doors.
Just my opinion but just one of those things the average Aussie buyer (well everyone I knew) couldn't be swayed by.
I think even some Euro stuff was NOT finished the same way.
Maybe the thicker doors gave us a false sense of safety.

No one wanted to drive around with their arm resting on a painted thin window surround rather than plush thick brown vinyl.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I saw this at Highpoint Shopping Centre yesterday,

image

Does this belong to anyone here? VIC Police going to have a field day with that

It's funny isn't it, for generations people were slamming their Falcon's and Commodores into the weeds, these days it's the complete opposite. The amount of young guys I see piloting a jacked up Y61 Patrol's with exhausts and homemade snorkels seems to grow buy the day.

The troubling this is that these things would be a handful for even the most experienced drivers. I spotted a guy with a loaded roof rack and jacked up suspension nearly roll over the other day, it sure looked like it scared the crap out of him.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

No one wanted to drive around with their arm resting on a painted thin window surround rather than plush thick brown vinyl.

Those were the days when drivers used to like hanging their wing out the window….
Hardly a deal breaker for many who look past those kind of shortcomings…..
I think the bigger issue was that people looked at Falcon and Commodore but wanted something
that cost less or was as you hinted at better appointed for a similar price but also used less fuel..
By the 1990s, it was becoming obvious that justifying the next generation of Falcon/Commodore
began getting harder but we’re still Okayed because they were “rainmakers” for the rest of the
showroom as Holden would tragically discover at the end….

[smoo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

By the 1990s, it was becoming obvious that justifying the next generation of Falcon/Commodore
began getting harder but we’re still Okayed because they were “rainmakers” for the rest of the
showroom as Holden would tragically discover at the end….

Yet Holden/GM still dumped $1 billion into the VE, so maybe it wasn't that obvious.
When the VT and AU were launched, did anyone predict the demise of the large sedan (or sedans in general) would come, or at least be realised within ten years?
Did anyone foresee the rise of the dual cab ute, SUV/crossover and a hugely diverse market offering buyers significantly more choice than the 1990s...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by smoo

Yet Holden/GM still dumped $1 billion into the VE, so maybe it wasn't that obvious.
When the VT and AU were launched, did anyone predict the demise of the large sedan (or sedans in general) would come, or at least be realised within ten years?
Did anyone foresee the rise of the dual cab ute, SUV/crossover and a hugely diverse market offering buyers significantly more choice than the 1990s...

No but obviously signs that large car sales were already dying because of more choices.

VE was a special case because Zeta was the second start on a global RWD platform
that was supposed to have covered more (US) vehicles than it eventually did.
A fair portion of that billion dollar funding was new machinery to build the VE.