why chev motors ? - Page 3

302 XC · 18-12-2010, 04:55 PM

Back on topic
Why Chevs in hotrods ???
Price and availability
Especially in the 50s,60s,70s,80s
What was a holden 308 replacement in an old kingswood or something ???
327,350 ect
With todays advancement in engines and the emission laws,well we have a larger spectrum to look at
The over head valve SBC started in 1955
So buy the 70s there was billions around

irish2 · 18-12-2010, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

In the context of the thread topic id have to disagree, the SBC is, IMO probably the most "successful" and popular small block ever produced and really was only rivaled by the 4V Cleveland for the few years it was manufactured..

If you are talking production numbers than yes the SBC is the clear winner. On the racetrack however is a different story. 289 powered mustangs and falcons wiping the floor with 308 and 327 powered GM products. 302 boss mustang easily winning most races over 350 chevs. Even the 351 windsor had a power advantage over the 350 monaros of the day. The 351 clevo was such a shock to the GM system (in Australia at least) which resulted in a complete rethink of their nominated race car.

EF · 18-12-2010, 06:27 PM

This is becoming a good talking point on this matter . Now I noe that yes SBC are cheaper but I have ford blood and if it is a ford shape it's a ford motor I dont care the power outpoint from out of the box

cheers guys very happy with the conversation

302 XC · 18-12-2010, 08:01 PM

irish,
Without goin too off topic
I think youll find the 308 holden motor has won more races than any other motor in australia
Comparing chev (GM)Vs Ford on a ford forum
Can of worms anyone

pottery beige · 18-12-2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 302 XC

irish,
Without goin too off topic
I think youll find the 308 holden motor has won more races than any other motor in australia
Comparing chev (GM)Vs Ford on a ford forum
Can of worms anyone

308 shut the gate....

irish2 · 19-12-2010, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 302 XC

irish,
Without goin too off topic
I think youll find the 308 holden motor has won more races than any other motor in australia
Comparing chev (GM)Vs Ford on a ford forum
Can of worms anyone

Are we talking ATCC? 308 is a chev motor. 304 is the holden motor. And I don't mean the motors after group C ended.

4Vman · 19-12-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

Are we talking ATCC? 308 is a chev motor. 304 is the holden motor. And I don't mean the motors after group C ended.

308 was a Holden motor.......

irish2 · 19-12-2010, 12:07 PM

302XC. Domonation is Geoghegan winning 68 from 72 starts in a 289 against 308's and 327's. Group C is the only category worth talking about from ATCC because it is where the engines were closest to stock.

irish2 · 19-12-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

308 was a Holden motor.......

Well are you going to offer up a reason why a 308 is so much better than the ford besides pricing? It is a only wives tale that chev motors are the best. I can't recall the number of times I've head "If you want it to revv, buy a chev" but the people repeating the bull can't give me one reason why it would out revv any motor.

**ebxr8240** · 19-12-2010, 12:16 PM

304 and 308 are basically the same engine.. It was to keep under weight penalty for engines over 5.0...In the racing class at the time..

This has nothing to do with WHY G.M engines are used as transplants or in race cars...

In most cases they are the bigger engine.. Due to them being made by the millions second hand they are CHEAP !!!...

They are like ex Jap parts.. The same reason an SR20 would be fitted into Escort etc...

4Vman · 19-12-2010, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

Well are you going to offer up a reason why a 308 is so much better than the ford besides pricing? It is a only wives tale that chev motors are the best. I can't recall the number of times I've head "If you want it to revv, buy a chev" but the people repeating the bull can't give me one reason why it would out revv any motor.

Im completely lost with what you're trying to say. A 308 is a holden motor not a chev, it was hugely successful in the Torana's in the 70's and Commodores through out the 80's.
But as per the original question id rather a 350 chev in a hotrod though... Cheaper to get decent HP from, small, relatively light and compact.
308's require work to make them last over 6000 rpm.. 350 Chev's are probably the most bullet proof of all the factory small blocks including the cleveland.
I can remember in the 80's when we all had hot 351 clevo's in or falcons to be careful picking fights with 350 chev powered Torana's and Monaros' because they're potent.

pottery beige · 19-12-2010, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im completely lost with what you're trying to say. A 308 is a holden motor not a chev, it was hugely successful in the Torana's in the 70's and Commodores through out the 80's.
But as per the original question id rather a 350 chev in a hotrod though... Cheaper to get decent HP from, small, relatively light and compact.
308's require work to make them last over 6000 rpm.. 350 Chev's are probably the most bullet proof of all the factory small blocks including the cleveland.
I can remember in the 80's when we all had hot 351 clevo's in or falcons to be careful picking fights with 350 chev powered Torana's and Monaros' because they're potent.

yep.... regardless of what rocker covers it wears... any 'built' motor is nasty.....

irish2 · 19-12-2010, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im completely lost with what you're trying to say. A 308 is a holden motor not a chev, it was hugely successful in the Torana's in the 70's and Commodores through out the 80's.
But as per the original question id rather a 350 chev in a hotrod though... Cheaper to get decent HP from, small, relatively light and compact.
308's require work to make them last over 6000 rpm.. 350 Chev's are probably the most bullet proof of all the factory small blocks including the cleveland.
I can remember in the 80's when we all had hot 351 clevo's in or falcons to be careful picking fights with 350 chev powered Torana's and Monaros' because they're potent.

Through the 80's group A allowed massive changes from the stock motors and holden pumped huge money at racing. The torana was their only answer to the Clevo at the time. They still had a 350 monaro that barely saw any track time due to the potent nature of the clevo. Holden removed themselves from the power war.

Back in the 80's when you had your 351 clevos there was no aftermarket for them due to the fact America only used the motor in small numbers for 4 years. The 350 had a huge following in America just like the 5.0.

Dollar for dollar any engine builder will get you the same HP from a clevo as a 350 chev. The priciples of producing an efficient air pump don't change due to the badge.

302 XC · 19-12-2010, 12:51 PM

"They still had a 350 monaro that barely saw any track time due to the potent nature of the clevo"
WTF

They replaced the 350 first gen monaro with the 6 cylinder torrie
From the 6 cylinder torrie they went the LH/LX torrie (308 powered)
These were well fast (power to wieght will do that)

Then the 308 powered VB/VC/VH commondores
VK went 304 due to overseas racing (under 5 litre class)

Yes Geoghegan had race win domination (look what he was racing against)

Most wins in australian racing history 308

V8 Man · 19-12-2010, 01:06 PM

Saw a nice 32 Roadster at a show a few years back with a sticker on the back
"Built Ford tough, with Chevy stuff", made me smile.

irish2 · 19-12-2010, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 302 XC

"They still had a 350 monaro that barely saw any track time due to the potent nature of the clevo"
WTF

They replaced the 350 first gen monaro with the 6 cylinder torrie
From the 6 cylinder torrie they went the LH/LX torrie (308 powered)
These were well fast (power to wieght will do that)

Then the 308 powered VB/VC/VH commondores
VK went 304 due to overseas racing (under 5 litre class)

Yes Geoghegan had race win domination (look what he was racing against)

Most wins in australian racing history 308

At the time they ran the 6 cylinder torrie they still were selling 350 powered monaros. The stratergy wasn't to be fast from GMH. It was to win with less pitstops.

Geoghan was racing against names like Beechy, Bartlet, Bob Jane, John Harvey, John French, and Allan Moffat. Competing against cars like the 327 monaro and 327 camaro.

Most wins in Australian racing history? What through Group A and V8SC days? I hardly call that a production motor. Thats like racing a 600hp 2 litre sierra and claiming it was close to production specs. At no time other than V8SC has the 308 dominated anything. We all know how fair V8SC is.

4Vman · 19-12-2010, 01:07 PM

Im still baffled as to what the racing history has to do with why people chose 350 chevs for hotrods..

irish2 · 19-12-2010, 01:11 PM

VH 308 5.0L – 117 kW at 4000 RPM. Most XA and XB 6's would have given it a run at the lights.

irish2 · 19-12-2010, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im still baffled as to what the racing history has to do with why people chose 350 chevs for hotrods..

Not much. People including yourself started to base the trend on the 308 - 350 being the better motor. Now racing results revolve around a great many things. It is however a simple way to see how the motors performed when slightly modified in the day. Especially when comparing them under group C rules.

I personally believe the Chev motor in hotrods is just a trend followed by sheep. They base their decision to use the chev motor on nothing that is tangible.

pottery beige · 19-12-2010, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

VH 308 5.0L – 117 kW at 4000 RPM. Most XA and XB 6's would have given it a run at the lights.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........ BS...............

irish2 · 19-12-2010, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottery beige

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........ BS...............

250 2v

Power: 170bhp (127kw) at 4200rpm
Torque: 250lb-ft (339Nm) at 2200rpm
Kerb weight 1369kg

VH commodore

Kerb weight 1326kg

pottery beige · 19-12-2010, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

250 2v

Power: 170bhp (127kw) at 4200rpm
Torque: 250lb-ft (339Nm) at 2200rpm
Kerb weight 1369kg

VH commodore

Kerb weight 1326kg

ffs.... Brocky Commo...... SNAP......
your missing the whole point about RODS........
they do WHAT they WANT how THEY WANT.... no fan boi BS.......
Black Betty was a DODGE.....
bam ba lam....
Powered by a BIG BLOCK CHEV......
bam ba lam...........

4Vman · 19-12-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

Not much. People including yourself started to base the trend on the 308 - 350 being the better motor. Now racing results revolve around a great many things. It is however a simple way to see how the motors performed when slightly modified in the day. Especially when comparing them under group C rules.

I personally believe the Chev motor in hotrods is just a trend followed by sheep. They base their decision to use the chev motor on nothing that is tangible.

Ive never said the 308 is a better motor for a hotrod, ive allways maintained people chose 350 chevs for hotrods simply because they were cheap to hot up, ultra reliable, compact and plentiful.
It doesnt matter now anyway, you have to use a euro 4 compliant motor in a new hotrod and id guess about 80% of existing hotrods are chev powered..

WMD351 · 19-12-2010, 02:22 PM

If you want to put a Windsor in a rod you'll have to go and source short this and stubby that for the front of the motor to make it fit. If you want a Clevo, firewall has to go back/radiator moves forward, lots of work.

Then there was parts availability, they used to say you could buy GM parts at any corner shop. Others said this was the reason there there were so many corner shops in the day.

Hp and revs are about breathing and ford never did get it right. They went from not breathing enough straight through to beathing waaay to much.
Put a double hump chev head next to Windsor or Clevo heads and compare. If you can't see the difference, then I can't explain it.

I thought a large part of the Supercar deck height was that Holden needed the space up top for better induction design room.

galaxy xr8 · 19-12-2010, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

It doesnt matter now anyway, you have to use a euro 4 compliant motor in a new hotrod and id guess about 80% of existing hotrods are chev powered..

I never knew that, I wonder if that will make the prices of exsiting Rod's rise as I would imagine it would cost more to go down the path of a Euro 4 compliant Rod and all the accerories that go with it (EPA), it would make it a head ache, I would think.

302 XC · 19-12-2010, 02:52 PM

I think the OPs question has been answered at least a few times
Price and availability

I think the 308 bashing is wrong,they are and were a very dominant motor

A VH 308 4 barrell against an XA,XB six
The VH 308 will absolutely smash it

Power and torque on paper is very minimal in the big picture especially regarding bog stock cars

Nikked · 19-12-2010, 04:06 PM

what has a 250 2v got to do with a SBC in a '32 ford?

**SSD-85** · 19-12-2010, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

It doesnt matter now anyway, you have to use a euro 4 compliant motor in a new hotrod

Not here in QLD Norm.

To answer the OPs question, in agreeance with nearly everyone here;

- Price (of everything)
- Availabilty

But its good to see someone do something original (pun intended) and actually put a Flattie in one.

EF · 19-12-2010, 05:19 PM

Me and my dad are looking at building a 32 next year and we are Gunnar fo old school flatty just cause i love old school stuff I have nothing against chev motors but I love my ford motors even if u gotta through more money at them

**SSD-85** · 19-12-2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gt.4.me

Me and my dad are looking at building a 32 next year and we are Gunnar fo old school flatty just cause i love old school stuff I have nothing against chev motors but I love my ford motors even if u gotta through more money at them

Good stuff mate, you should throw it up in the Projects area. Always wanted to see a Flathead project take shape.