Australia’s First F-35 on the Go

[XR Martin]

And just thinking about it, I think they may have even been JS2s, not T34s.

EDIT:

In April of 1945, SS-Hauptscharführer Karl Körner (platoon commander from the 2nd Company) was supporting an infantry counterattack in the Bollersdorf area (east of Berlin), when he encountered two Soviet JS-II heavy tanks at a distance of 200m. He quickly destroyed the first one and second one trying to reverse in order to take a firing position drove into an anti-tank ditch and was abandomed by the crew. On the road from Bollersdorf to Strausberg, Körner observed additional 11 JS-II tanks and around 120 to 150 enemy tanks in the process of being refuelled and re-armed on the egde of the village. He then fired and destroyed all 11 JS-II tanks on the road and attacked the rest of the tanks and their suprised crews. Number of fuel and ammunition trucks exploded causing even more panic among the Russian tankers, while Körner fired all 39 rounds he had left and knocked out 39 enemy tanks before he withdrew. Following this action, sSSPzAbt 503 and other units were falling back to defend Berlin. On his way to Berlin, Karl Körner destroyed over 100 Soviet tanks and 26 anti-tank guns in total, achievement for which on April 29th, he was awarded the Knights Cross in the bunker of Reichs Chancellery. After the ceremony, Körner returned to his unit on the frontline at Charlottenburg district of Berlin. On May 2nd, last King Tiger from sSSPzAbt 503 was destroyed during an attempt to break out of the city on the Spandau Bridge.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

The Tiger I & II tanks were formidable, I'd put my money on a Tiger over a Sherman & even a T-34 anyday.

I remember hearing a Sherman crew man tell the story of the time they got fed some wrong location info, and ended up running into a couple of Tigers. The whole unit got blown to hell as they watched their shells bounce off the Tigers.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

The Tiger I & II tanks were formidable, I'd put my money on a Tiger over a Sherman & even a T-34 anyday.

Yeah the Sherman was always going to be the biggest loser against a Tiger. By the time the US Army planners stopped their infighting about tanks, got their collective **** together and allowed tanks like the M-26 Pershing to be deployed, the war was basically over.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Biggest drawback of the Tiger/II was its reliability and range, otherwise no other tank could come close.

Actually quite the opposite, especially in terms of range and accuracy, the Tigers opticals where superior and it was even more deadly at range than any tank of the time, it's why you had so many German tank aces with so many kills like Kurt Knispel & Michael Wittmann the more famous ones.
The Tigers did have reliability issues but the T-34 was even worse.
In almost every major battle there were more T-34 casualties than Tigers, even when the Tigers were outnumbered, but of course you need to take into account anti tank guns and air raids.

The big factor of the Russian campaign losses for the Germans was supply and the huge front (I remember when I first read about how massive the front extended it blew me away) and the worst winter that Russia had seen in a long time, the same thing happened to Napoleon when he invaded.
It's hard to really rate the Soviet Army, especially when you look at how they treated their own soldiers and the losses they suffered, I think arguably the German army of WW2 is one of the most impressive of all time.

[Neale]

Although I love the look & idea of these aircraft, I cant see the reason that we are spending huge dollars on this type of aircraft in the name of defence of the country.

But we continue to hire firebombing aircraft that get used every year in "defence" of the country against the annual threat of bushfires.

I would have thought that at least the purchase of a couple of skycranes or fitting out a couple of old C130's with some tanks for fighting fires instead of sending them off to the scrappers would be money better spent.

[BHDOGS]

Soviets treated there soilders badly the german command treated there's bad to no retreats fight to the death child soldiers hardly boy scouts

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Biggest drawback of the Tiger/II was its reliability and range, otherwise no other tank could come close.

Sounds like an F-35 on the ground.

[Madaya]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

Soviets treated there soilders badly the german command treated there's bad to no retreats fight to the death child soldiers hardly boy scouts

Once knew an old gent, Oave was his name. He was a 12 year old, sitting in school in Denmark, 1944. A German officer and his cohorts swept into the classroom and announced "you have all volunteered to join the German Army".
The drawn Luger made volunteering quick and simple.
Basic daily training was this...
The local abattoir would dump the offal on a field of mud, spanned by barbed wire. The soldiers would crawl, weapon in hand through this 'stuff', weapon in hand with live machine gun fire skimming the wire.
Quite a few 'cadets' failed this training when they lifted their head.
After two weeks of intensive training, he was parachuted into Leningrad.
He had a scar on his hand, a present from a Russian bayonet.
Sometimes, a simple chat in the local pub, blows the mind of a 24 year old man (me). At 12 years old, I was still playing with Dinky toys and building 'cubbies' in the bush.
When you are starving, people taste good.
Didn't mean to go off topic, but I see there has been a few deviations here, which probably isn't too bad, seeing as we are talking about war machines.

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

I remember reading a story about a Tiger II coming over a ridge one time and finding a dozen T34s staring back at it.
After about 10 mins all the T34s were destroyed with the Tiger just needing some paint touched up.

Biggest drawback of the Tiger/II was its reliability and range, otherwise no other tank could come close.

That was Michael Whitman . The T34 was a revolutionary tank and in so many ways better than the Tiger , Angled armour , diesel engine ( remember german tanks of this era were still petrol powered , cheaper and easier to produce . The battle of Kursk proved its mettle .

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I remember hearing a Sherman crew man tell the story of the time they got fed some wrong location info, and ended up running into a couple of Tigers. The whole unit got blown to hell as they watched their shells bounce off the Tigers.

The Germans used to refer to Shermans s Tommy Cookers .

[Madaya]

Not to sure about the Sherman being referred to as Tommy Cookers, but an equivalent British Tank certainly was. I'll check this out. A mate of mine is full bottle on this stuff.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Madaya

Not to sure about the Sherman being referred to as Tommy Cookers, but an equivalent British Tank certainly was. I'll check this out. A mate of mine is full bottle on this stuff.

Sherman = Tommy Cooker

[DJR-351]

I have heard the Sherman referred to as a Tommy Cooker plenty of times (Google it), but another nickname i am familiar with is "Ronsons" (after the cigarette lighter) for their propensity to catch fire when hit by German tank shells, this was based on the Ronson Company's famous slogan, "lights first time, every time." Funnily enough it’s also known that when they were used as flame throwers in the South Pacific they were also referred to as Ronsons by the U.S. soldiers....

The British used the Sherman in WW2 (maybe where the Tommy Cooker comes from) and it wasn't until the British fitted there 17 Pounder Anti Tank gun to it that the Sherman was able to take on the Panther and Tiger at standard combat ranges, look up "Sherman Firefly".....

For a good write up on the Sherman have a read of Death Traps: The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II by Belton Y. Cooper

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Modern day warfare is more about a deterrent rather than actually going to war, making your potential enemies think and even know that going to war with you would be a huge mistake is one of the greatest tactics of the modern era, never in human history until the advent of the atomic bomb has there been a deterrent so massive that even the thought of attacking a nuclear armed state would be insane. If you have a Missile Defense system in place this is an even bigger deterrent, especially if you can prove how accurate it is like the USA has done.

Having the USA as our ally is the biggest deterrent of all, it allows Australia to spend less on our Military, you couldn't even imagine the costs Australia would need to spend on the military if not allied to the USA and this is why it terrifies me that some of the political parties that exist in Australia that want to sever the USA-Australia alliance.

I'm just thinking to deter who? All the super powers are allies now, unless the Taliban are building their own state of the art jets underground to invade the us there is not really any threat. They have something like 7,000+ Nuclear warheads too, in what reality is 7,000 nukes more necessary then say 1000 nukes to deter an enemy? They are in the business of making money first then defense second. They would have a million nukes and a million planes if their citizens let them get away with it, all hidden behind the "defense" banner.

We need to look after our own interests and most that were in regards to the F35 were ignored because of the relationship with the US. What will they ask for next?

[SB076]

Personally I think we need a deterrent and we cannot rely on our allies to do all the work. History has shown we are not great at predicting wars, for example look at what Australia/Britain/USA spent on defence in 1937 and 1938 and then look what happened in 1939.

Lot of military projects look like failures at the start, but then seem to come good (not all, Sea Sprite was a dud) To me the I am not sure about the Collins class, although I have been advised by someone that works in the Navy that they do very well in war games and apparently they can be quiet. Initially the F 111's we thought to be failures and now a lot of people think they are great.

Tiger II tanks where almost unbeatable on the battlefield, just a case of too little too late, Allies resorted to aerial attacks and even carpet bombing to take them out. If you want an account of what WWII was about read a book called "Forgotton Solider" Author I think is Hal Sajer (not 100% sure of spelling etc) very interesting read, goes on about shell shock, rocket artillery

[Kable72]

Man, these F-35s look very impressive. I would love to fly one of them. I tried to get in but my eyes suck, lol.

[NickyN]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

I'm just thinking to deter who? All the super powers are allies now, unless the Taliban are building their own state of the art jets underground to invade the us there is not really any threat. They have something like 7,000+ Nuclear warheads too, in what reality is 7,000 nukes more necessary then say 1000 nukes to deter an enemy? They are in the business of making money first then defense second. They would have a million nukes and a million planes if their citizens let them get away with it, all hidden behind the "defense" banner.

We need to look after our own interests and most that were in regards to the F35 were ignored because of the relationship with the US. What will they ask for next?

Not all the super powers are allies.

Are you saying the Taliban have 7k+ nukes? Or are you talking about the US? Can you clarity the "they" that you write about?

So your opinion is that AU bought into the F35s because our countries are allies and we asked AU to, just because?

[FPV_Steve]

Originally Posted by Kable72

Man, these F-35s look very impressive. I would love to fly one of them. I tried to get in but my eyes suck, lol.

Surely you don't need your eyes anymore!?

Isn't that what all this technology is supposed to do for you

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by FPV_Steve

Surely you don't need your eyes anymore!?

Isn't that what all this technology is supposed to do for you

Lol not at all

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by NickyN

Not all the super powers are allies.

Are you saying the Taliban have 7k+ nukes? Or are you talking about the US? Can you clarity the "they" that you write about?

So your opinion is that AU bought into the F35s because our countries are allies and we asked AU to, just because?

Sorry the post I was quoting was referring to the US and so was I. And yes I believe it was more of a "how many can we put you down for?" type of negotiation.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

I'm just thinking to deter who? All the super powers are allies now, unless the Taliban are building their own state of the art jets underground to invade the us there is not really any threat. They have something like 7,000+ Nuclear warheads too, in what reality is 7,000 nukes more necessary then say 1000 nukes to deter an enemy? They are in the business of making money first then defense second. They would have a million nukes and a million planes if their citizens let them get away with it, all hidden behind the "defense" banner.

We need to look after our own interests and most that were in regards to the F35 were ignored because of the relationship with the US. What will they ask for next?

, my guess is lot of people thought we couldn't be invaded back in the 40's as well, look what happened to darwin,
not long ago north korea was threatening to start shooting nukes around , still tensions all around the place, in this day and age I think I would be wanting to be more self sufficient not less.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by mik

, my guess is lot of people thought we couldn't be invaded back in the 40's as well, look what happened to darwin,
not long ago north korea was threatening to start shooting nukes around , still tensions all around the place, in this day and age I think I would be wanting to be more self sufficient not less.

I believe tensions (long term) will only get worse, as resources become more difficult to obtain, countries and politicians will either need to reduce living standards (no popular) or they will need to take what they can get by any means. Japan is a good example they went to war knowing they would most likely lose, but the need for resources and the rest is history

Edit
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliame...nceExpenditure

Some information on what Australia spends on defence, interesting 1937 and 1938 we were reducing what we were spending on our defence force. If they knew back then that war was imminent then surely they would have increased defence spending

[Bluepower]

Our platform needs to in some way be aligned with our "mates" from across the pond.

Aussie JSF's in different theatres will benefit from a common tech background. F18 super hornet shares a common engine with an F16 and an F15, making knowledge on training/fitment/overhaul easier.

At the very least with JSF as a platform in Europe, asia, The Americas we have a common platform.

How the aircraft will REALLY perform comes down to game day. See all the bad press about the F22?? Recently I read somewhere that an Iranian F4 was poking around near an outer warning area in the gulf and an F22 flew right up underneath it in order to check its weapons/electronics loadout.

When the F22 was done, it broke back and flew on the F4's wing. Poor IRIAF pilot, must have a few more grays now lol

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

Our platform needs to in some way be aligned with our "mates" from across the pond.

Aussie JSF's in different theatres will benefit from a common tech background. F18 super hornet shares a common engine with an F16 and an F15, making knowledge on training/fitment/overhaul easier.

At the very least with JSF as a platform in Europe, asia, The Americas we have a common platform.

How the aircraft will REALLY perform comes down to game day. See all the bad press about the F22?? Recently I read somewhere that an Iranian F4 was poking around near an outer warning area in the gulf and an F22 flew right up underneath it in order to check its weapons/electronics loadout.

When the F22 was done, it broke back and flew on the F4's wing. Poor IRIAF pilot, must have a few more grays now lol

Agreed and war is changing these days, its becoming more about how "systems" (aircraft, ships vehicles) integrate with each other and allied "systems" passing information, identifying treats

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

Our platform needs to in some way be aligned with our "mates" from across the pond.

Aussie JSF's in different theatres will benefit from a common tech background. F18 super hornet shares a common engine with an F16 and an F15, making knowledge on training/fitment/overhaul easier.

At the very least with JSF as a platform in Europe, asia, The Americas we have a common platform.

How the aircraft will REALLY perform comes down to game day. See all the bad press about the F22?? Recently I read somewhere that an Iranian F4 was poking around near an outer warning area in the gulf and an F22 flew right up underneath it in order to check its weapons/electronics loadout.

When the F22 was done, it broke back and flew on the F4's wing. Poor IRIAF pilot, must have a few more grays now lol

I heard about that. Poor Iranian must have shat himself

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Kable72

I heard about that. Poor Iranian must have shat himself

WW 1 pilots in the early days were quite friendly towards enemy pilots, they would usually smile and wave, it all went wrong when someone threw a brick at someone else and from there pilots started arming themselves with various weapons, until finally they added weapons to the planes.

(note sure if it was a brick or something else, someone explained to me how it all started but I cant recall)

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by mik

, my guess is lot of people thought we couldn't be invaded back in the 40's as well, look what happened to darwin,
not long ago north korea was threatening to start shooting nukes around , still tensions all around the place, in this day and age I think I would be wanting to be more self sufficient not less.

Not even the same thing, the world was at war then. I believe North Korea was the one legitimately threatened with nukes too, not the other way round. I bet Obamas glad he didn't pull the trigger now.

I'll say it again if 7000+ Nuclear warheads that could probably erase any country off the face of the earth within a couple of hours is not a big enough deterrent then you are clearly wasting your time aren't you?

A good comment was made before, why not spend some of that sort of money defending against something that actually does kill Australians every year and invest in more fire fighting gear and troops, instead of this imaginary threat used solely to grow the war budget and sell planes.

Bit off topic now so back to the F35.

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Not even the same thing, the world was at war then. I believe North Korea was the one legitimately threatened with nukes too, not the other way round. I bet Obamas glad he didn't pull the trigger now.

I'll say it again if 7000+ Nuclear warheads that could probably erase any country off the face of the earth within a couple of hours is not a big enough deterrent then you are clearly wasting your time aren't you?

A good comment was made before, why not spend some of that sort of money defending against something that actually does kill Australians every year and invest in more fire fighting gear and troops, instead of this imaginary threat used solely to grow the war budget and sell planes.

Bit off topic now so back to the F35.

Cos you just don't know what people are planning. Would you rather not have any sort of hardware and a bigger country decides to dust you up a little? Or would you rather have Australia be able to defend itself against a similar power.

[Dash_XR]

I'd rather not live in fear of something that realistically will probably never happen. Not too mention if a bigger country did decide to "rough us up" all the F35's in the world couldn't stop them if you don't have the pilots to fly them. We couldn't even dig in as gorillas because we have no guns lol. We're a small country, we would never be able to defend against a bigger country. That's why we stay friends with them.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

I'd rather not live in fear of something that realistically will probably never happen. Not too mention if a bigger country did decide to "rough us up" all the F35's in the world couldn't stop them if you don't have the pilots to fly them. We couldn't even dig in as gorillas because we have no guns lol. We're a small country, we would never be able to defend against a bigger country. That's why we stay friends with them.

Its like insurance, you don't want to have to use it (be it JSF or any other equipment but, if it hits the fan and I genuinely hope it never does, than you need it)

Plus cant rely on Allies if you never give them anything back, otherwise you become that mate that never shouts a beer but expects everyone to buy him one.