BMW X5 copied Territoty suspension?

[Phase II]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Sure you can. The X5 has only one important thing the Territory doesn't. A fancy badge.

Can you honestly tell me...... for example the leather in a Territory is of the same quality as a BMW or even Ferrari?? Touches like this are where you get the expence and once again you get what you pay for. If you were given and X5 for six months and at the end of it you could have either (lets pretend Ford make both cars) Can you tell me then that it wouldn't phase you because they are the same??? hmmm Keen to hear your responce.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Phase II

Can you honestly tell me...... for example the leather in a Territory is of the same quality as a BMW or even Ferrari?? Touches like this are where you get the expence and once again you get what you pay for. If you were given and X5 for six months and at the end of it you could have either (lets pretend Ford make both cars) Can you tell me then that it wouldn't phase you because they are the same??? hmmm Keen to hear your responce.

Base model X5si 85,000
Territory Turbo Ghia 65,000

For 20k would I be really worried that the carpet is 4 microns thicker, or that the gaps in the interior are 0.8mm wider and don't quite line up if you look hard enough. Or the plastics aren't quite as rigid.

Might not be a better car. But its definately the better purchase.

[Phase II]

I will agree to disagree I myself am not in the market for a BM and quite happy to have a Territory i think they are great my best mate has one but you notice the small differences when you are used to a normal car and get into dads cars even like the feel of the power steering that is what makes these cars superior.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Phase II

Can you honestly tell me...... for example the leather in a Territory is of the same quality as a BMW or even Ferrari?? Touches like this are where you get the expence and once again you get what you pay for. If you were given and X5 for six months and at the end of it you could have either (lets pretend Ford make both cars) Can you tell me then that it wouldn't phase you because they are the same??? hmmm Keen to hear your responce.

Don't bring Ferrari into it, they're not renowned for making reliable, daily driveable cars... rather weekend specials that die in the if you show them some day to day traffic.

And yes, I can honestly say that I would happily take a Territory over an X5. My aunt has had two in the last 3 years (3.0i and 4.4i now) and they're not the most impressive thing out there. All they have to "justify," their expense is their badge.

People seem to automatically write something off when comparing it to BMW because its not a BMW. I've never understood this. Every BMW I've ever been in (E46 M3, M3 CSL, X5 3.0i E53, X5 4.4i E53, 318i E36, 323i E36, 318i E30, 318is E30, 323i E30, 528i E39, 535i E34, M6 E63, 323Ci E46) or driven (E30 318i, E30 318is, E53 X5 3.0i, E46 323Ci, E39 528i) has been unimpressive, especially considering the hype that surrounds them.

Personally, apart from a select few (330Ci E46, 335i E92 for example) I would never get a BMW. If offered an X5 or Territory I'd take the Tezza every time. Especially considering that the upcoming 270kW 550Nm FPV F6 X is going to cost the same as a base model E70 X5 3.0i. Hmm... base model badge or top of the range "commoner," car? I'll take the "commoner," car every time.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

If offered an X5 or Territory I'd take the Tezza every time. Especially considering that the upcoming 270kW 550Nm FPV F6 X is going to cost the same as a base model E70 X5 3.0i. Hmm... base model badge or top of the range "commoner," car? I'll take the "commoner," car every time.

I agree with Steffo (shock!).

Originally Posted by Phase II

you get what you pay for

I never have, and never will believe that this is the case with a BMW. No doubt the build quality is better in some areas, but "getting what you pay for" ? Hrmm...

I'm not saying that they don't build quality cars, they're just way over priced for what you get IMO, unless you personally value the BMW badge on the bonnet and boot at about 40% of the cars value.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Don't bring Ferrari into it, they're not renowned for making reliable, daily driveable cars... rather weekend specials that die in the if you show them some day to day traffic.

And yes, I can honestly say that I would happily take a Territory over an X5. My aunt has had two in the last 3 years (3.0i and 4.4i now) and they're not the most impressive thing out there. All they have to "justify," their expense is their badge.

People seem to automatically write something off when comparing it to BMW because its not a BMW. I've never understood this. Every BMW I've ever been in (E46 M3, M3 CSL, X5 3.0i E53, X5 4.4i E53, 318i E36, 323i E36, 318i E30, 318is E30, 323i E30, 528i E39, 535i E34, M6 E63, 323Ci E46) or driven (E30 318i, E30 318is, E53 X5 3.0i, E46 323Ci, E39 528i) has been unimpressive, especially considering the hype that surrounds them.

Personally, apart from a select few (330Ci E46, 335i E92 for example) I would never get a BMW. If offered an X5 or Territory I'd take the Tezza every time. Especially considering that the upcoming 270kW 550Nm FPV F6 X is going to cost the same as a base model E70 X5 3.0i. Hmm... base model badge or top of the range "commoner," car? I'll take the "commoner," car every time.

I think, after driving the E46 M3, you may change your mind....I was impressed as a passenger as one, then when I got to drive one a few years down the track, it blew me away.....utterly blew me away....and unlike any fast falcon ever made, it corners aswell as it goes in a straight line(not to say falcons canne handle, its just there a better straight-line proposition...the abilities arent equal)

And the e63 M6 was rather impressive from the passenger side too...



And, Im with you...if it was my money, it would be F6X over X5 3.0i every day of the week...

And if its not my money? either 3.0sd or 4.8i sports on 21's, or even better X6(5.0tt V8)/upcoming X5M thanks!

[Ruger]

Originally Posted by Steffo

People seem to automatically write something off when comparing it to BMW because its not a BMW. I've never understood this.

Mate youve got it all wrong. There are people that automatically write off something if it hasn't got the badge and there are people (which you seem to fit the bill very accurately) who write off the car because it has a certain badge! I own a bmw, whenever someone asks what car i own and i say a bmw its usually one of these reactions:

Pffft bmw are a rubbish, over rated german garbage without any knowledge at all or knowing the reason i bought the car. No i didnt buy it for badge status - its 1130kg, rwd, irs, perfectly balanced and with minor suspension work handles better than my ba falcon could ever have dreamed of.

or

wow flashy car yet they seem to forget that the run down au falcon up the street is probably worth more.

It is the automatic assumptions that people throw out every single time and they ALWAYS get it all wrong! Now it seems definately that you are a badge snob. Not with a love for one badge but a hatred for another. Carry on about how solid falcons are and why they are chosen as taxi's. Sure they are chosen as taxi's but ive never been in a high k taxi that rides remotely like it did when it was new. In fact the interior is usually held in by tek screws.
260,000k's on my e30 and its holding up better than an ea falcon of same vintage could ever dream of.

lets see how the interiors of the territory and how everything in general holds up in 10 years time. There are a vast amount of design floors in the interiors of late model aussie made fords as far as fitment and longevity are concerned not to mention if you follow what ford say youll be chasing your tail trying to get rid of the brake shudder and get your handbrake working for those 10 years you own the car.

Wake up to yourself and stop being a badge nazi. e63 m6, e46 m3 and m3 csl apparently over rated what a joke.....

[drew`SEVNT5]

thought I recgonised your car....

im sh|tbmxrider over on ECCA(was my name here too, till someone complained it were offensive)

[Ruger]

hehehe yer i noticed Bseries and euro interlove.

LOL! hardly an offensive name i cant imagine someone losing sleep over it

[XCSEDAN]

man the X5 craps all over the terry in every aspect, driven them brand new back to back, and driven both that have done 100,00+km's (only the previous generation X5 had done 100,000+km's) im telling you know, that there is no way in hell they are anywhere near equal.
if you want to compare suburban awd's then you should compare the terry to an x3 its more in its class range, but yet again i have to say the BMW craps all over the terry!

its not just fine differences but it is general build quality and driving feel, also wear and tear, a bmw may cost more to maintain but geez, i remember driving an X3 dad brought home with 160,000kays on the clock and then the next day i was driving a mates 150,000kay terry, and the BMW just outdid it in every aspect, noise, comfort, driver feel, body roll, handling, fuel economy, absolutly everything.

if you dont beleive me go and test drive them... go on... and then if you can afford it, buy the X3 and you will see what i mean (i reccomend the diesel, they are a GREAT engine, tonnes of torque and they are VERY economical)

[ea90gl]

I was never a fan of BMW until i worked at a dealer for a while and got to check out many models and see what they were about. they are great cars and have great build quality and theres not many out there that can engineer a motor the way they do. Who here has gone flat chat in any beemer? The way they just pick up and redline is just amazing, 6500RPM in most beemers feels like about 1500RPM in your average falcon. I know its not just about motors but to get 252KW out of a 3.2ltr inline 6 N/a or a tad over 300Kw from a 4.0 V8 is fantastic and the way they make the power is impressive too. You just have to read car review over car review to see what beemers are like. Aust Fords are also good but I would never say any new Aus ford would be better than any new BMW

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Ruger

Mate youve got it all wrong. There are people that automatically write off something if it hasn't got the badge and there are people (which you seem to fit the bill very accurately) who write off the car because it has a certain badge! I own a bmw, whenever someone asks what car i own and i say a bmw its usually one of these reactions:

Pffft bmw are a rubbish, over rated german garbage without any knowledge at all or knowing the reason i bought the car. No i didnt buy it for badge status - its 1130kg, rwd, irs, perfectly balanced and with minor suspension work handles better than my ba falcon could ever have dreamed of.

or

wow flashy car yet they seem to forget that the run down au falcon up the street is probably worth more.

It is the automatic assumptions that people throw out every single time and they ALWAYS get it all wrong! Now it seems definately that you are a badge snob. Not with a love for one badge but a hatred for another. Carry on about how solid falcons are and why they are chosen as taxi's. Sure they are chosen as taxi's but ive never been in a high k taxi that rides remotely like it did when it was new. In fact the interior is usually held in by tek screws.
260,000k's on my e30 and its holding up better than an ea falcon of same vintage could ever dream of.

lets see how the interiors of the territory and how everything in general holds up in 10 years time. There are a vast amount of design floors in the interiors of late model aussie made fords as far as fitment and longevity are concerned not to mention if you follow what ford say youll be chasing your tail trying to get rid of the brake shudder and get your handbrake working for those 10 years you own the car.

Wake up to yourself and stop being a badge nazi. e63 m6, e46 m3 and m3 csl apparently over rated what a joke.....

I'm not being a badge nazi. Everyone else is. "Territory couldn't possibly be as good as an X5 because its only a Ford," or "BMW couldn't possibly have copied Ford for a suspension design because they're BMW," seems to be the general concensus in this thread.

Nice E30. Looks in alot better condition from that pic then either of my mate's ones ('89 318i Coupe and... earlier in the 80s (84 or something) 323i Coupe). I often fancied getting an E30 325e. 325e + 320i head, 325i intake, 325i cam, aftermarket exahaust = ~220hp and E30 M3 straight line ability... for alot less money.

I'm surprised you've never been in a taxi with high km that rides like new. Perhaps I could show you some?

E46 M3 is overrated. It sounds like poo IMO, isn't that fast in a straight line, and for all that cornering ability, couldn't beat the "boat," C55 AMG on track.

The thing that really irks me is when people go "well if you drove this, or if you did that, you'd see how much better the BMW is."

I've driven X5s, and Territorys and I like the Ford better in every way. As I've said repetiadley. In my opinion (good set of keywords), the Territory walks the X5. In my opinion... most of BMW's range is very overrated badge-mobiles.

On interior fitment issues... BMW has their very fair share of problems there. Shop the ~4-5 year old 3-Series and ~7-8 year old 5-Series of market and be prepared to be impressed by warn down leather, little compartment lids that don't work properly or just come off, switches that no longer work properly, weather seals that are no longer sealing (or peeling off entirely) etc. Ford suffers these kind of things too, but since they don't have the badge, its ok to give them slack for it, but its a sin to point out it happens to Bee Emms too?

Badge sells. Badge blinds. End of story.

NB - One interesting thing is how many people give the media a hard time when they don't agree with what they say. However when they do, oh look but they said this... :

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Don't bring Ferrari into it, they're not renowned for making reliable, daily driveable cars... rather weekend specials that die in the if you show them some day to day traffic.

And yes, I can honestly say that I would happily take a Territory over an X5. My aunt has had two in the last 3 years (3.0i and 4.4i now) and they're not the most impressive thing out there. All they have to "justify," their expense is their badge.

People seem to automatically write something off when comparing it to BMW because its not a BMW. I've never understood this. Every BMW I've ever been in (E46 M3, M3 CSL, X5 3.0i E53, X5 4.4i E53, 318i E36, 323i E36, 318i E30, 318is E30, 323i E30, 528i E39, 535i E34, M6 E63, 323Ci E46) or driven (E30 318i, E30 318is, E53 X5 3.0i, E46 323Ci, E39 528i) has been unimpressive, especially considering the hype that surrounds them.

Personally, apart from a select few (330Ci E46, 335i E92 for example) I would never get a BMW. If offered an X5 or Territory I'd take the Tezza every time. Especially considering that the upcoming 270kW 550Nm FPV F6 X is going to cost the same as a base model E70 X5 3.0i. Hmm... base model badge or top of the range "commoner," car? I'll take the "commoner," car every time.

I would take a BMW 130i over a Focus and that's about it. If you were offered a RWD straight six small car what would you choose??

I agree that people seem to hold BMW too highly. Remember their cars are expensive because they are making HUGE PROFIT MARGINS.

Then again I can stand BMW worship more than I can stand Toyota worship...

[Rev28K]

I’ve always been a little bit suss about some of the Nurburgring times for the big 3 (Audi, Mercedes, BMW). The big 3 had agreed to limit their cars to 150mph (240ish kmh), some of them have eased up to 160mph and Mercedes has an option where you can set the limit at a higher level. The latest BMW M5 is rumored to be able to run above 300 kmh without a limiter. The ‘ring has some monster long straights and you could pick up a lot of time on the straights with a limiter set at a higher level. My little 1.8 litre Honda hits around 200kmh (indicated) at some tracks like Phillip Island and Sandown. I’m sure something like an AMG Mercedes, RS Audi or M BMW would launch up the start of the straight and then you’d have to hold it just off the speed the limiter was set to kick in at for the rest of the straight – most frustrating.

The other thing is we are just looking at the posted ‘Ring times, I’d like to see data traces between the cars to see where they gained or lost time and read the articles (in German?) to see if there were any problems or traits that hindered or helped some of the cars.

Have a look at the local times at Winton and you’ll see that while the new S4 does 1:40’s (a commendable improvement on the very average 1:44’s for previous S4’s and RS4’s) the new M3 does 1:37’s. While BMW have had their problems (early M engines blowing the M3 competition pack being nearly as quick as a CSL when fitted with the CSL’s tyres, etc) they have nearly always been quicker on the local tracks. Historically the Audis (even RS versions) tended to die a bit on circuits but thankfully they look as if they are on the way up (bring on the RS5!).

I’m not a fan of the power race in the small cars it leads to things like an 1800kg Mercedes C-Class (with a knobbled engine).

[dave289]

Originally Posted by VSSII

Yoo gotta be fu%%en kidding me, Ford Aus copying BMW? This modification was first seen by Benz I think in the mid to late 90's with their variation being an exceptionally long shock absorber which while intruding a little more, made a notable difference to driver comfort.

BMW were considered a bit of a laugh with their 'luxury car' claims back in the days of mac struts on the front. I remember BMW advertising their 93 3 series had 100 million invested in its total design. Mercedes spent this on the rear suspension alone of its C class! However they used this same design on its C E and S class models whilst BMW used the more cost effective design on its cheaper models. Ford Aus? Not even a blip on the screen despite what the salesperson says.

No not ford aus copying bmw.bmw copying ford aus.did you not see the first x5 had shitbox struts making the ford suspension far superoir.have you not read the write ups on the territory over the years.that is why they copied it and get over it.and no they would never copy a design from holden cause you would be going backwards.get over it bmw copied fords far superior design.period.

[dave289]

Originally Posted by GK

For the record and for the money, I'd be more than happy to take a Territory Turbo or Ghia over an X5 and for that matter a BFII Ghia over a 5 series.

Call me whatever you want, I just prefer Aussie cars and feel proud to own and drive cars made 10 km's from where I live.

GK

good on you gk.when i was a kid of about twelve(i'm now 37),you really did not see that many bmw or mercs on the road.my uncle always drove bmws and i have always loved cars,even since i was very young.back then owning the merc or bmw was far and few in between and a status that you had made it in life and deserved something better.these days every second car is a silver bmw with p plates.now these dweebs have not made it in life there ususally just starting out with mums and dads money to finance the bmw.so as far as im concerned the status is certainly not what it used to be with these all these p platers driving them .look in the paper on the weekend and you will see far more bmws than ford and holden put together.not such a statement anymore .value for money fords whip the a rse off bmw.i remember a mate of mine buying a second hand m3 years ago.it was about 2 years old at the time and he estimated the price it cost the previous owner was about $2,000 per 1000 km with the kays and price he pay for it over the new car price.real good value.smart car buying if ever i saw it or is it a case of more money than cents.BMW=Burn More Wallets

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I would take a BMW 130i over a Focus and that's about it. If you were offered a RWD straight six small car what would you choose??

I agree that people seem to hold BMW too highly. Remember their cars are expensive because they are making HUGE PROFIT MARGINS.

Then again I can stand BMW worship more than I can stand Toyota worship...

I'd take a Volkswagen Golf R32 or Audi S3 over a BMW 130i. Both are much faster, look better, better built and far more practical (ever seen a 1-Series rear seat).

I agree with you about the BMW worship over Toyota worship.

[T-BOOST]

Originally Posted by |||

bmws are ok but really at the end of the day no one really likes them i think its just the badge the cars are pretty boring

Speak for yourself, not others.
I love BMWs, i have one myself (E36-320) aswell as the Territory.

Does it really matter who copied who, if at all.
BMW do a nice luxury car, Ford do a nice affordible car.
There are some people here trying to compare the 2, Unless people have owned both, i dont think anyone can really coment on comparisons with build quality or anything else alike.

They are not even to compare with for a start. BMW is built far better but they cost far more.
Which is one of the reasons i bought the Territory over the X5.

[T-BOOST]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by XCSEDAN

man the X5 craps all over the terry in every aspect, driven them brand new back to back, and driven both that have done 100,00+km's (only the previous generation X5 had done 100,000+km's) im telling you know, that there is no way in hell they are anywhere near equal.
if you want to compare suburban awd's then you should compare the terry to an x3 its more in its class range, but yet again i have to say the BMW craps all over the terry!QUOTE]

Oh so you have driven the elite Territory (TTG) and compared it to the X5 have you? or was it just the TX against the X5?
Thats funny because my TTG s h i ts all over any X5 that iv'e come across at a set of white lines.
I also own a BMW and will agree build quality is far better in a BMW, but i wouldn't go as far as saying that there 'better in every aspect'. As i own both brands i have a pretty good knowlage of both, more than just a test drives worth.
Or saying ''but my auntie has one'' like steffo seems to keep pointing out.

[Deadman]

I'd just like to know where the "BMW is built better" statements are coming from. Just personal experience? Almost every reliability report I've seen in the past few years, has BMW performing very poorly...

[T-BOOST]

Originally Posted by Deadman

I'd just like to know where the "BMW is built better" statements are coming from. Just personal experience? Almost every reliability report I've seen in the past few years, has BMW performing very poorly...

Well deadman my statement is having owned a BMW for 5years and 4 differant fords, fairmont XD, falcon EB, fairmont ef and a Turbo Territory Ghia over 12 years.
ive pulled apart the interior of both brands (for stereo)
I dont know how much more experiance you want. besides actully owning the 2 brands, thrashing the 2 brands, pulling apart the 2 brands.

and my now 17 year old BMW is still a great car, still handles like it's on rails still looks great, with ALL parts intact. Still idles without a mermer,still revs to the red line with out a flutter. even after 5 years of a really hard time. Yes steffo the leather is worn a little but only on the drivers side, but it is 17 years old.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Deadman

I'd just like to know where the "BMW is built better" statements are coming from. Just personal experience? Almost every reliability report I've seen in the past few years, has BMW performing very poorly...

Its the Bavarian Manure Wagon badge.

Did you know criticism of BMW is internationally illegal, opposed by the UN and will soon be an act of terrorism? :

[ea90gl]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Its the Bavarian Manure Wagon badge.

Did you know criticism of BMW is internationally illegal, opposed by the UN and will soon be an act of terrorism? :

People can easily say First On Rubbish Dump but to give a statement like that for millions of cars where the statement doesnt even come close is silly. Anyway lets remember that BMW has the image it has from the quality cars it produces, cars just dont get that sort of image and status from nowhere other wise we would probably hear people saying a Daewoo is a prestige vehicle

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

People can easily say First On Rubbish Dump but to give a statement like that for millions of cars where the statement doesnt even come close is silly. Anyway lets remember that BMW has the image it has from the quality cars it produces, cars just dont get that sort of image and status from nowhere other wise we would probably hear people saying a Daewoo is a prestige vehicle

The times of the truly good BMW's are long gone... most of the cars they make now just survive off the badge. Even the supposedly "holy," M cars aren't all that...

[Ruger]

yer why would you have an m3 when you can get a handfull of egas falcons instead :

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Ruger

yer why would you have an m3 when you can get a handfull of egas falcons instead :

Why would I have an M3 E46 for 100k+ when I can get a brand new R-Spec F6 for 75k that sounds better, looks better, is more practical, and is in every way faster?

Or for M3 money I can get a faster, better looking, better sounding Boxster S?

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Why would I have an M3 E46 for 100k+ when I can get a brand new R-Spec F6 for 75k that sounds better, looks better, is more practical, and is in every way faster?

Or for M3 money I can get a faster, better looking, better sounding Boxster S?

F6 sounds better? :


up until now, I thought you may have been serious....now I know you are pulling our collective legs....I suppose, Youtube will distort the sound of an M3....



And, I think you will find the M3 is either just quicker or lineball with the typhoon, and doesnt look like a taxi doing so.

[ea90gl]

The M3 just sounds terrific like a mechanical orchestra at full song, Ive had the pleasure of driving a few. They will always look better than a falcon, has a better interior than the falcon, always will outhandle the falcon and will go harder than a falcon. Not bad considering its a 3.2 litre N/A pumping out 252KW (or 265KW for the CSL) compared to the 4.0ltr turbo pumping out 270KW. yes the ford has more torque but just search the net for turbo BMW's and see how much potential the BMW has as well as the 4.0ltr Turbo.

http://www.stevecarter.com/m3bmw.htm

Overall the M3 will beat the Typhoon around anywhere, simple. Thats not to say the Ford is crap, a very good car for its price but no one can ever say it will compete with an M3. Really you cant compare them but for this threads sake its safe to say the M3 is better overall. And not to mention the many more looks, stares and attention the M3 will attract. The on top of that we're talking about the old M3 which is behind the new M3

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

F6 sounds better? :


up until now, I thought you may have been serious....now I know you are pulling our collective legs....I suppose, Youtube will distort the sound of an M3....



And, I think you will find the M3 is either just quicker or lineball with the typhoon, and doesnt look like a taxi doing so.

It looks like a shorter, two door German taxi.

It soudns like crap. I hate the way they sound. Every time I hear one they sound like they're going to spit the valvetrain out of the exhaust if you keep revving them. One of my favourite descriptions for the engine noise is "rattling bucket of bolts."

They're slower down the quarter then a Typhoon. Even the mighty CSL can't out-drag an F6. Out corner it, but not out-drag.

Getting slightly back to the Terri vs X5 thing...

This against the FPV F6 X will be interesting. I know what my money's on.

[Phase II]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The times of the truly good BMW's are long gone... most of the cars they make now just survive off the badge.
Even the supposedly "holy," M cars aren't all that...

Mate I drove a E90 M3 around eastern creek 2 mths ago at a drive day and F$@k ME it was impressive, 105hp per cylinder reving to 8400 the sound and performance is amazing. Sure these cars arnt within reach of everyone but they are cheaper and more in reach than some compeditors..... and then you have the V10 M5 that is a big sedan, a complete sleeper and press the "M" button and you can race a Ferrari. If they arent all that they are certainly a bit of something else than. Drive an E90 and get back to me on M cars "aren't all that"