Why so few old Falcons remaining compared to Commodores?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Not so !

While Earlier Commodores were European based to varying degrees, by the time you get to VE, the body/chassis is 100% Aussie designed & built. The drivetrains are mostly US units. I doubt that you would find anything Euro in a VE or VF.

Much like the Falcon, early ones were very US-based Then less so by XA & even less so by XF. EA onwards doesn't have much US left in in them. AU onwards nothing left.

Also all Holden build figures include all overseas built units, because they were CKD packs. The packs were made here then exported & they knew the exact numbers.

Dr Terry

It's funny how when we were younger, we never thought of the earlier Dunnydores as a real Aussie, just a tweeked Opels.
I think this, and the the fact they looked so much smaller than the HZ was why quite a few buyers went to the Falcon.

I can remember at the time all the advertising going on about the interior space being superior in the XD and not loosing space from the the previous XC.

[FTE217]

just for some numbers seeing posts about X model and popularity.
I got one of my office members to do some quick rego numbers that also incls NZ.
These are the VIO's on some random model mixs mentioned that are confirmed registered :

HQ's all 7,014
VE/VF incl HSV's 426,261.
XF/XG/XH utes 10,717
AU all incl TSeries 53,514
BSeries up to FGX incl FPV's 348,308.

Enjoy.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Not so !

While Earlier Commodores were European based to varying degrees, by the time you get to VE, the body/chassis is 100% Aussie designed & built. The drivetrains are mostly US units. I doubt that you would find anything Euro in a VE or VF.

Much like the Falcon, early ones were very US-based Then less so by XA & even less so by XF. EA onwards doesn't have much US left in in them. AU onwards nothing left.

Also all Holden build figures include all overseas built units, because they were CKD packs. The packs were made here then exported & they knew the exact numbers.

Dr Terry

The pre-VE Commodore is on the GM V series platform, Opel Omega

For the VN the platform was stretched and widened, bigger engines put in to suit our market and compete with the Falcon as a 'full sized' car.

VE Onwards is an all Australian design.

The benefit of the Commodore using drivelines and electronics from GM is that all the diagnostics are well developed on the automotive aftermarket because of the US, the Commodore got OBDII and the GM implementation of it, you can read a surprising amount of data and get codes directly from the ECU/BCM and ABS module on my VSII Caprice with a modern scan tool, it will give you live data no dramas.



Thats a live data readout from my Caprice when it had its factory ECU - thats amazing for a car from the mid 1990s with microwave spec electronics.

The Falcon is an electronic orphan, unique to Australia/NZ, so the aftermarket diagnostics are well and truly lacking in comparison to what you can do to Commodores with a scan tool in the workshop, all the way right back to a VS.

The AU Falcon adopted the OBDII plug but had its own unique protocol.

[MFL]

In late 2023, when I used travel regional NSW for work, there were plenty of AU and BA/BF Falcons around west of the Great Diving Range, not so much in the coastal areas, and I thought I now know where all the older Falcons went.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The pre-VE Commodore is on the GM V series platform, Opel Omega

For the VN the platform was stretched and widened, bigger engines put in to suit our market and compete with the Falcon as a 'full sized' car.

VE Onwards is an all Australian design.

Basically correct, although the 1st generation Commodore (VB-VL) was an Opel Rekord/Senator combination with Holden drivetrains, then the VN-VS was a widened Omega-A with Holden drivetrains. Then the VT-VZ was a widened Opel Omega-B with our drivetrains.

Dr Terry

[XR Martin]

Holden spent more on beefing up the Opel Rekord chassis than what it would have been to start from scratch apparently.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Holden spent more on beefing up the Opel Rekord chassis than what it would have been to start from scratch apparently.

Pretty sure the IRS setup on the VS-VZ is under spec for what it has to deal with up front.

It's common to break the IRS cradle causing wheel alignment problems from VS all the way through to VZ.

Surprised mine hasn't yet given I basically blew one rear tyre off it at every given opportunity

[prktkljokr]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Not so !

While Earlier Commodores were European based to varying degrees, by the time you get to VE, the body/chassis is 100% Aussie designed & built. The drivetrains are mostly US units. I doubt that you would find anything Euro in a VE or VF.

.

Dr Terry

You would be surprised how many Euro componets are in the VE and VF Commodore.

To say the VE was totally 100% Australian designed and built is true in the fact it was assembled here, but there is a fair amount of it that is made in other countries not specificly for the VE but other GM cars around the world, a lot of the parts have the manufacturing country stamped on them and have other part numbers for other vehicles not sold here.

I have wrecked more VB-VF's than I have had hot dinners, I have seen where the parts are made and I was surprised how much of it actually came from Europe, I know they are based off the Australian Zeta platform which ilends itself to the 2010–2015 Chevrolet Camaro so it uses parts from Mexico.

But the Pre VE were all based off the European platforms, then they thought it would be a good idea to go back to the Euro stuff with the ZB, what a mistake that was.

The VE and VF was the best decision Holden had made since the end of the H series, but unfortunately it was too late, the ZB was the hammer pounding the last nail in the coffin.

[Franco Cozzo]

The ZB was a half assed damage control attempt from Holden, thinking we're stupid enough to think that just because something wears the same name that Australia will buy ZB 'Commodore' hand over fist.

Even though it's a mid sized wrong wheel driver, or maybe it was a deliberate sabotage to help GM justify its pull out of ALL RHD markets globally.

Who remembers the damage control ads from Holden about we're not leaving

Mind you this clown didn't exactly help



Biggest leaner on tax payer payroll

[FTE217]

The IRS was a debacle from VN onwards.
HSV’s had a lot of neg camber owners didn’t know their rear tyres were worn to the steel belts by 10thou clicks.
It’s was crap period.
That Buick v6 was a POS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rare ss]

Originally Posted by FTE217

The IRS was a debacle from VN onwards.
HSV’s had a lot of neg camber owners didn’t know their rear tyres were worn to the steel belts by 10thou clicks.
It’s was crap period.
That Buick v6 was a POS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

*VP onward

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

You would be surprised how many Euro componets are in the VE and VF Commodore.

To say the VE was totally 100% Australian designed and built is true in the fact it was assembled here, but there is a fair amount of it that is made in other countries not specificly for the VE but other GM cars around the world, a lot of the parts have the manufacturing country stamped on them and have other part numbers for other vehicles not sold here.

I have wrecked more VB-VF's than I have had hot dinners, I have seen where the parts are made and I was surprised how much of it actually came from Europe, I know they are based off the Australian Zeta platform which ilends itself to the 2010–2015 Chevrolet Camaro so it uses parts from Mexico.

But the Pre VE were all based off the European platforms, then they thought it would be a good idea to go back to the Euro stuff with the ZB, what a mistake that was.

The VE and VF was the best decision Holden had made since the end of the H series, but unfortunately it was too late, the ZB was the hammer pounding the last nail in the coffin.

I'm not saying that some VE/VF bits didn't come from Europe. What I'm saying is that by VE there was virtually no German/Opel design input. Most cars are built with parts from many countries.

The sad part about the ZB, was that it wasn't such bad a car. Sure it wasn't a real RWD Aussie Commodore, but as a FWD Euro car it was better than many of its peers.

Dr Terry

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FTE217

The IRS was a debacle from VN onwards.
HSV’s had a lot of neg camber owners didn’t know their rear tyres were worn to the steel belts by 10thou clicks.
It’s was crap period.
That Buick v6 was a POS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah, I got love for the Buick V6, 10 minute alternator change and robust - trade off is NVH.

Mang mang mang mang

That thing was the P plater weapon of the 2000s through to circa 2015.

Cheap to maintain, buy parts from IGA, hell drive in drive out less than a thousand bucks for a new AC compressor, receiver dryer, TX Valve and a regas to blow 2 degrees C out the vents so you can grow stalactites from your *** in summer.

IRS setup a bit halal but hey it beat Ford to it by circa decade, just like how they beat Ford to the punch with climate control.

[prktkljokr]

As soon as they released that the new Commodore was front wheel drive they lost 90% of private sales, FWD is not what Australian full size car drivers are after, I think they were relying on the fact that it was so popular in Europe it wouls be a hit here, how wrong they were, they just forced people to other large rear wheel drive manufacturers.

[prktkljokr]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Nah, I got love for the Buick V6, 10 minute alternator change and robust - trade off is NVH.

Mang mang mang mang

They used the same motor from the Alloytec on in the Saab but bolted on a turbo, this would have made the old Commodore more appealing

The HFV6 was used in a few cars around the world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

They used the same motor from the Alloytec on in the Saab but bolted on a turbo, this would have made the old Commodore more appealing

The HFV6 was used in a few cars around the world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine

Yep, should see how well the boat anchor HF V6 responds to boost, massive oversight from Holden not using the SAAB 9-3/9-5 Aero LP9, was even made in Port Melbourne

Imagine me as Holden sales and marketing, I'd be solely responsible for genocide of cashed up bogans by having engineering making absolute widowmakers.

Forget Bathurst, my customers are the traffic light grand prix champions, Ford and their GT limiting sales to only enthusiasts, my W427 the only way you get invited to buy it is being on your states hoon register - minimum 12 months loss of licence offence to apply

As much as I hate Thailand Specials, me and the epidemic of flog Ford Ranger drivers are two sides of the same coin, they just don't acknowledge it.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

IRS setup a bit halal but hey it beat Ford to it by circa decade, just like how they beat Ford to the punch with climate control.

Both EA and VN got auto climate control.

EA actually got it first because Fairmont Ghia had it from the outset, the Holden didn't have it until the VQ Statesman in 1989.
Calais didn't get it until later.(series 2 in 1990)

[Swordie]

With hindsight if Holden built another sedan post VF seemed like it would not make sense. The market shifted to SUV and 4x4 Utes, they did import them.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by rare ss

*VP onward

VQ was the first factory IRS equipped version if you want to get picky.

Or Brocks VL Calais Director.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yep, should see how well the boat anchor HF V6 responds to boost, massive oversight from Holden not using the SAAB 9-3/9-5 Aero LP9, was even made in Port Melbourne

Imagine me as Holden sales and marketing, I'd be solely responsible for genocide of cashed up bogans by having engineering making absolute widowmakers.

Forget Bathurst, my customers are the traffic light grand prix champions, Ford and their GT limiting sales to only enthusiasts, my W427 the only way you get invited to buy it is being on your states hoon register - minimum 12 months loss of licence offence to apply

As much as I hate Thailand Specials, me and the epidemic of flog Ford Ranger drivers are two sides of the same coin, they just don't acknowledge it.

Has anyone got hold of a 2.8T and made an SV6T out of it? Would be pretty cool.

[rare ss]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

VQ was the first factory IRS equipped version if you want to get picky.

Or Brocks VL Calais Director.

The main reason GMH cut ties with Brock/HDT was the IRS fitment as it wasn't ADR approved, the Polarizer was just the easy target

[LTDHO]

Two simple reasons.

1. Ford owners are happy to strip and part out to make a quick buck.
2. Holden owners just keep their cars going.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

They used the same motor from the Alloytec on in the Saab but bolted on a turbo, this would have made the old Commodore more appealing

The HFV6 was used in a few cars around the world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine

A turbo version of the HFV6 was used in an Cadillac SRX, the engine failures
were so chronic in 2010 that it was withdrawn and never spoken about for years.
It then re-emerged in the late 20 teens as the 3.6 TTV6 with tons of power,
313 kw and 586 nm in the CT6.

The point was that our performance market was V8 centric and the LS engine had performance in spades.

[nearlythere]

Meh.
As long there is still a falcon in my sheds that's all that matters to me

[Syndrome]

I've noticed Falcons and Holdens are less frequently seen on roads these days.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

I've noticed Falcons and Holdens are less frequently seen on roads these days.

Driving to and from the snow over the weekend, I passed 1 Falcon the whole drive. I remember when they'd be plenty of Falcons in the country.

[Sprintey]

How many Subies, with their full time AWD, up there? Seems like their natural habitat. Lots of snow coming.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

How many Subies, with their full time AWD, up there? Seems like their natural habitat. Lots of snow coming.

Heaps. Didn't see any Falcon's or commodores in the snow itself and the only Falcon I saw was on the way to Cooma. Saw a few Commodores though (VE/VF) but the only Falcon was a B series.

[Syndrome]

Easy answer. From the mid-1990s Commodores outsold Falcons 2 to 1.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Easy answer. From the mid-1990s Commodores outsold Falcons 2 to 1.

Thought EF took the title off Commodore but then came AU and EL didn't stand a chance against VT