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#61 | ||
Guest
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If it's a lightish car trailer you'd squeeze it under the 2300kg limit but as someone else said, that limit only applies with a heavy duty tow kit, else it falls back to the default 1600/1700kg limit.
I towed 2 tonne with a BA falcon for around 10 years with no problem at all, but a little care is required. I had stiff springs put on, XR6 alloys with lower profile wet weather tyres, heavy duty tow bar, a load-levelling kit and a heavy duty height-adjustable tow hitch. It did ride harder than a regular falcon but the handling felt pretty solid and I don't like a pillowy soft ride anyway. That car went up hills in first or second gear pulling 2 tonne and didn't ever get hot, it didn't ever let me down. My biggest concern would be braking, but I used a pendulum electric brake controller and had no issues. So long as you're within spec and have some respect for what you're doing I don't have issue with people towing with falcons. Get a feel for the car, the weight it's pulling, how the car handles differently with that weight and how it affects braking, corners/etc. |
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#62 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Many Euro caravans are setup to run lighter ball weights but we are talking cars on car trailers here. Low ball weight is an accident waiting to happen. There is a belief that weight on the rear results in reduced front grip and understeer, but how many accidents are caused by understeer? Most, if not all are caused by oversteer, often in the shape of a jack knife. Rear grip is critical, especially under lateral load. |
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#63 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
Trust me when I say it works well, and even works better depending on what you're towing it with. 10% is too high in some instances with certain cars (stock suspension, coil spring rear ends), causing too much pitching and diving even with a WDH. Drawbar length plays a large part in how much ballweight is needed, the longer it is the more stable it is and the less ballweight needed. Try it before you knock it - I actually generally aim for around 7.5% and tweak from there.
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#64 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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Euro's get away with it because they also run other systems like sway control etc with their vans.
Manufacturers mostly specify 10%. Some even have it as minimum of 10%. I wouldn't compensate for a poor choice of tow vehicle by reducing ball weight. In the context of towing a car on a car trailer, it's always going to be at least 2t and often well north of that, which is why you should have at least 200kg on the ball. No way I would ever advocate towing over 2t with 5% ball weight. I wouldn't recommend adjusting the ball weight lighter by moving the load rearward either. |
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#65 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
I didn't say anything about a poor choice of tow vehicle, so why mention it? The only way to adjust ballweight on a car trailer is to shift some of the weight rearward (or forward), so I'm not sure why you wouldn't recommend it. How do you adjust ballweight on a trailer?... As I mentioned in an earlier post, too much ballweight is just as bad as not enough ballweight. Ballweight is not an exact science, and manufactures know this. 10% is a guide, and not an exact figure. You'd know this if you tried various numbers for yourself. Until you have tried it yourself, you're only guessing.
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#66 | ||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Further to the above, I don't know of any tow hitches which are rated to allow greater than 10% ballweight and in fact some are only rated to allow 5% ballweight.
I'm not sure how manufactures could recommend greater than 10% if pulling the maximum weight... Read this in it's entirety. https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.c...iler-stability The higher ballweights came from the silly yanks, surprise surprise... Real studies have shown that 6-8% is the magic number.
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#67 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 456
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Quote:
Can you give a link to the "real studies" you say show the magic number. Maybe you should join and move your argument to http://www.caravanersforum.com regarding your knowledge on the ideal towball weight. Warren
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Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat with experience every time. |
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#68 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
Towbars/hitches are absolutely rated for ballweight, it is stamped on the ID tag along with the the rated towing capacity. It's part of the ADR's. As far as Ive seen it's a maximum of 10%, and in some cases 5%. The link I provided earlier made reference to the study, but I don't have a link to the actual study. In any case, try it for yourself, it's not difficult to shift the weight of a loaded car trailer. I have and the results vary.
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#69 | ||||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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this is one of many reasons why I believe you should always have some tolerance to your cars max ratings. This is the problem with using falcons to tow falcons, as per the thread title. Sure, people have shown that you can tow a car on a car trailer, with a normal passenger car, however its been pointed out that most of the time, while it may tow 'fine', it will be bordering on illegal, or will be illegal. How many would bother to check their rear axle weight? |
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#70 | ||||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
It's works wonders. Quote:
It's easy, safe, and legal if you do it properly, but you need to think outside the square at times and do what works rather than what the norm say should work. Prove it to yourself...
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#71 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 3,705
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Quote:
Is that some euro thing?
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www.bseries.com.au/mercurybullet 2016 Falcon XR8. Powered by the legend that is - David Winter. XC Cobra #181. 1985 Mack Superliner, CAT 3408, 24 speed Allison. |
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#72 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
Well there's your first problem... ![]()
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#73 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
So yes, it can be done, but to stay legal you need to know all your weights. |
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#74 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Perth, Northern Suburbs
Posts: 4,924
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Quote:
When you're towing near the limit, you want to err on the side of weight forward, and keeping plenty of load on your rear axle. Two much weight behind centre on the trailer will create a pendulum effect. |
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#75 | ||
BA/F6 BF/F6 SSV/R TTG
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 7,251
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You really cant legally tow a late model falcon with a falcon.
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BA BF FPV starter button repairs. PM me. Nizpro equipped and Tuned by the BEST in the west Xtreme Ford Tuning 479RwKw Fuel limited, more pumps and power too come. F6#0507 & #0639 Pro racer and Tech expert NIZPRO modifying falcons like Premcar can only dream of , see VIDEO below. https://youtu.be/oa4IfguGQ-A |
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#76 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
His words were - Winch the towed vehicle as far forward as possible (load up the tow ball), helps prevent jack knifing at the speed limit :/ This is absolutely not correct. Doing this will in many cases go over the legal ballweight of many cars. Yes, you want more weight on the front of the trailer than the rear. That's a given. A good guide is somewhere between 5%-10%, and tests have shown that 6%-8% are the ideal numbers to aim for, as already shown. It's equally unsafe to have too much ballweight as it is to have not enough. You shouldn't post if you don't know what you're talking about, you'll encourage dangerous and illegal tow rigs.
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#77 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Personally I'd be running closer to the 10% mark as recommended by the manufacturer. Toyota recommend 9-11%. Pretty sure the manufacturer knows a thing or two about the car they built.
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UA2 TREND 4WD BI TURBO |
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#78 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm agreeing with the tests which support my own experience. My experience comes from seeing what the Euros have been doing for a long time. I tried it and have done a lot of testing for myself - as I said earlier in this thread, why don't you try it for yourself. Manufacturers do a lot of strange things. How come you don't question why towbars don't have a ballweight which is greater than 10%? What about the poster earlier with a rated maximum ballweight of only 50kg (and many others)? What happened to 10%?...
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#79 | ||
HUGH JARSE
![]() Join Date: May 2005
Location: Yap-Hoon
Posts: 21,571
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Have you heard the latest news in QLD?
Mr Bailey is presiding over new laws which will stop 4WD vehicles from towing caravans, boats, horse floats and trailers because they exceed their legal carrying capacity. The new laws mean bullbars, winches, water tanks and extended fuel tanks take bigger vehicles over the weight limit allowed to tow. Vehicles operated in excess of legal carrying capacity are declared unsafe and are not covered by insurance. The new laws will affect up to 200,000 grey nomads in Queensland, as well as fishermen and horse lovers. Even police and SES vehicles will be affected. It means motorists wanting to continue to tow caravans, boats, horse floats and trailers will be forced to now buy large, powerful, expensive and fuel-inefficient imported utes and trucks. The reason? Well we don’t really know although it’s a fair bet it is safety-related. The caravan association’s peak body and private operators who supply bullbars and winches to the industry have repeatedly written to Mr Bailey asking for a seat at the table to discuss the new laws, which take effect in two weeks. They didn’t get a reply. It seems inconceivable that an industry peak body - representing hundreds of thousands of people — would write to a minister asking for information and be snubbed. And the absurdity is that while the government is punishing Queenslanders by imposing draconian new rules around towing, if somebody from NSW or Victoria crosses the border they’ll be allowed to drive here without the same scrutiny. https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...934ea10db7e277 |
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#80 | |||||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
you can't just look at one aspect of the whole picture. Quote:
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it would be foolhardy and seriously dangerous to buy a car with a towball limit like that, and then try to reduce the ball weight of a heavy trailer down to that limit to try to make it legal.
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#81 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
there would be a very large percentage of cars out there that are illegal combinations. there are reports of police starting to undertake roadside testing of weights, just like they do with heavy vehicles, and in my view this needs to become much more widespread. there are many people out there that tow, or even just load their cars to the hilt, and are unaware of GVM, GCM (if listed), axle weights, trailer ATM/GTM etc.
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#82 | |||||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
The same can be said about what you're saying, you can't just slap 10% on any and every rig without looking at the whole picture. It's not needed, nor desirable, or even safe in many circumstances. Quote:
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Just for clarification, I'm not saying 10% is a bad number. I replied to the guy who said roll the car on a trailer as forward as possible to make ballweight as high as possible - That's just wrong, and may even cause failure. 5% to 10% is a good rule of thumb to work with, generally providing a stable rig. I would not recommend going under 5%, just as I wouldn't recommend going over 10%. Yes, I've tried it, a lot. Yes, tests I've seen agree with my own findings. Interestingly I haven't seen any real testing done to support the above 10% figure you're suggesting, only recommendations...
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#83 | |||||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
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if you aren't sure of the weights though, it is far better to err on the side of being too heavy than too light. Quote:
Ford, Toyota and Chrysler, 3 of the biggest manufacturers in the world adopted the SAE J2807 standard, which was introduced some years ago. http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/ They don't just make the numbers up, and to be certified to J2807, they have to pass the tests.
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#84 | ||||||||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
I guess you're stuck with the 10% which may not be enough according to you? Or what about my Falcon wagon with the Hayman Reese tow hitch which is rated for 2300kg and only 120kg ballweight? Surely the world will end when I tow having only 120kg ballweight with a 2300kg trailer? Strangely enough, it hasn't. Quote:
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So long as you're within that 5%-10% range you're good to go. Been there done it. Have you? Quote:
Likewise when the ballweight is too light. Both are as bad as each other. Quote:
Cars have then been known to be de-rated down the track if problems arise. Quote:
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#85 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
Didn't VW have ummm, problems with their diesel emissions - didn't they have to pass tests too? Manufacturers never make numbers up, never...
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#86 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
I'm not sure what relevance big yank POS with fifth wheels have to do with our Falcons towing 2300kg?...
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#87 | ||
I totalled my XR6
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,193
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Who would have thought that trailers could spark such heated debate..? Amazing.
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#88 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,551
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Debate, yes. Heated? Hardly. It's just a discussion with some differences of opinion.
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#89 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 256
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Tow car 1,600 kg... tow weight 2,400 kg
At 110 km/h the trailer takes over the wheelhouse and your just a passenger and it only gets worse with the less tow ball weight you have. Falcons are strong, unless your rear end has been breached the chance of buckling or doing any damage is minimal. BTW i only have a factory 1,600 kg tow pack. |
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#90 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 963
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I towed a BA F6 on a trailer designed for plant equipment behind a 5 speed auto FG with no trans cooler from Mossvale NSW to Lilydale VIC. 690KM. Car was loaded backwards as it was smashed and couldn't be moved.
Almost cooked the gearbox and shat me dacks a few times. Was passed and seen by many a Highway Patrol but no one stopped me. So I guess that means it was legal? I'll never do it again though. Just a good story to tell (y) |
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