Toyota Kluger - Rolls during Wheels COTY

[jdg]

that ESP has shortcomings and is not the complete solution when a driver gets into trouble

Agreed. Its only meant to be a driver aid. Theres only so much it could have done.

My belief is it could have happened to any 4wd etc just happened to be the Kluger. The driver/journo was obviously OK so the car couldnt have been that unsafe.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by JR.

No, the pro common sense camp has gone quiet. We get tired of trying to talk reason to idiots after a while...

Common sense take the moral high ground why don't ya.

On a corner that the Commodore (no esp) is tested on at 160km/h without incident. A Kluger (with esp) spins at 100 km/h and supposedley its common sense that Wheels are fiddling with the facts in a giant media conspiracy against the Kluger.

You obviously have far greater experience in these subjects than I do. You must work in IT.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Well thats just silly speak...

What, calling a company who makes a fleet of microwave's on wheels with the structural integrity of a paper cup is 'silly speak?'

I wonder what 'smart speak,' is then....

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Steffo

What, calling a company who makes a fleet of microwave's on wheels with the structural integrity of a paper cup is 'silly speak?'

I wonder what 'smart speak,' is then....

Well if toyota are getting around 4 stars (from what ive researched) then they arnt really paper cup cars are they...

...the way you assume things means that because the Ford Explorer rolled over, that the falcon is all of a sudden a unsafe car. :

If toyotas car's were unsafe you'ld hear allabout in the papers. Oh and a magazine scribe has manged to roll a X5, are all BMW's unsafe?

As JR said

"No, the pro common sense camp has gone quiet. We get tired of trying to talk reason to idiots after a while..."

Oh, and when you look at the photos it seems like the cars as came off the grass and clipped the ashpalt, enough to roll any car...

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Well if toyota are getting around 4 stars (from what ive researched) then they arnt really paper cup cars are they...

...the way you assume things means that because the Ford Explorer rolled over, that the falcon is all of a sudden a unsafe car. :

If toyotas car's were unsafe you'ld hear allabout in the papers. Oh and a magazine scribe has manged to roll a X5, are all BMW's unsafe?

As JR said

"No, the pro common sense camp has gone quiet. We get tired of trying to talk reason to idiots after a while..."

Oh, and when you look at the photos it seems like the cars as came off the grass and clipped the ashpalt, enough to roll any car...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAaGWcw8Xg0

Call me crazy, but it looks quite a bit like the driver's head there went out the window and made contact with the pillar on its return backward. Nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwESb...eature=related

Seems to happen with this one too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdCn8...eature=related

Blantant head-out-the-window-pillar-smack here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JIFm...eature=related

Very nice and safe looking (/sarcasm) - and there are alot of these things on the roads too!

And now for cars where the driver's head doesn't seem to exit the window of the vehicle and bounce of the pillar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBgCuccFink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievR2...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcussHKSpaw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPO-K...eature=related

I really like the ability of some of these cars to keep passenger's heads inside the open window in a frontal impact. Its kind've important...

After watching quite a few vids on there, it seems that modern day, 2007/08 Toyotas perform in these tests like European cars from 1997/98. 10 years behind? Seems to be the norm.

[Nikked]

Umm, that is safe...whats your point?

This is an unsafe car here, and here (quite shocking!)

[B-Series]

When Steffo says that toyotas are unsafe we should all listen to him. After all, he is the most impartial and the most qualified out of all of us (sarcasm). :

As for toyotas being unsafe, most (if not all) of the current models have at least a 4 star rating. That isn't too bad is it?

I do recall that Steffo mentioned in a previous thread that the new lancer had the structural integrity of a paper cup. Last time I heard, the new lancer has a 5 star safety rating or there abouts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy2mRJni1Hg

That's one strong paper cup

It looks like Steffo's credibility has been shot to pieces once again. Wait a minute... he never had much credibility to begin with.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by B-Series

When Steffo says that toyotas are unsafe we should all listen to him. After all, he is the most impartial and the most qualified out of all of us (sarcasm). :

As for toyotas being unsafe, most (if not all) of the current models have at least a 4 star rating. That isn't too bad is it?

I do recall that Steffo mentioned in a previous thread that the new lancer had the structural integrity of a paper cup. Last time I heard, the new lancer has a 5 star safety rating or there abouts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy2mRJni1Hg

That's one strong paper cup

It looks like Steffo's credibility has been shot to pieces once again. Wait a minute... he never had much credibility to begin with.

Is the Lancer in that video supposed to be impressive or something? It didn't look very much so...

Was that even an NCAP test? How fast did it hit the wall? Every test I showed was 40mph (64.4km/h). In all of them except the 07 (newest) Corolla, the dashboard moves, in all of them (except the 07 Corolla), the front is completley destroyed... hence the moving of the dashboard (contents of bonnet entering cabin). And in all of them, the driver's head goes out the window of the car....

[ea90gl]

Just remember but (to anyone) that the reason cars crumble like they do these days is they are designed to take all of the impact in an accident not the driver so its fair enough when you see cars falling to peices and getting destroyed during crash testing instead of the driver copping most of the damage

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

Just remember but (to anyone) that the reason cars crumble like they do these days is they are designed to take all of the impact in an accident not the driver so its fair enough when you see cars falling to peices and getting destroyed during crash testing instead of the driver copping most of the damage

Unlike the commo in my link... the whole car is a crumple zone

and it still funny that steffo calles 4-5 star cars unsafe, cars that are tested by experts, not by youtubers...


OT, its wheels magazine its a new idea for car almost these days, people discredit their driving skills because they cant get cars to do decent 1/4 times, now a car rolls and ever toyota in the world is a death trap on wheels? Logic? Looking a the photos time and time again, the car was sliding on grass and hit the lip of the road, now unless ESP applies training wheels whe the car moves 10% off its center line their is a chance that you can roll a car if you silly enough to get a 4WD to slide in the first place...

[B-Series]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Is the Lancer in that video supposed to be impressive or something? It didn't look very much so...

Yes, it is very impressive. The cabin is still very much intact which is what counts.

On the other hand, this is not impressive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-9vAJb_-Zo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P4x7szFy4U

Notice how the front part of the cabin crumbles.

Originally Posted by Steffo

In all of them except the 07 (newest) Corolla, the dashboard moves, in all of them (except the 07 Corolla), the front is completley destroyed... hence the moving of the dashboard (contents of bonnet entering cabin). And in all of them, the driver's head goes out the window of the car....

Qualified experts have tested these cars and have awarded them 4 star ratings. Last time I checked, a 4 star rating was more than acceptable.

[B-Series]

I don't what wheels was doing when they managed to roll the Kluger. I haven't bothered reading too much into it. All I know is that in 'real life' I'm yet to hear of a Kluger owner rolling his vehicle.

[irlewy86]

The roll was due to the vehicle hitting a spoon drain.

The concern was that as it spun out there was no ESP action. However some believe that it is all an illusion similar to 9/11, the moon landings and the disapperance of Harold Holt.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by B-Series

I don't what wheels was doing when they managed to roll the Kluger. I haven't bothered reading too much into it. All I know is that in 'real life' I'm yet to hear of a Kluger owner rolling his vehicle.

Really?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Exactly, whoever reckons that was at 180kph is delusional, or works for Toyota. A 180 kph crash would have had that Kluger barrel rolling 10 times, not just tipping onto its side and sliding for 50 metres.

This is where the ESP comes in. It keeps the vehicle on it's side, the side mirrors dig in thereby slowing it down and preventing mutiple rollovers.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Really?

That isnt a Kluger - at least to me.

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

That isnt a Kluger - at least to me.

Note the GMC in the background. I would assume the US varients have a slightly different look?

[XR Martin]

Its a Highlander, which is exactly the same as the Kluger

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Its a Highlander, which is exactly the same as the Kluger

Roofline appears wrong, can you post further photos, looks more like an Avensis.

Im looking at a Kluger right now, few things look a bit out but cant be certain.

[hy_boi]

Its an old shape kluger/highlander.

On another note, I read the whole COTY article, and they struggled to get details right about a few cars, eg " LC200 has no switchible ESP" Its next to the steering wheel on the left you knob jockies, learn to read ya manual or pay attention when someones showing you through the car!

[B-Series]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Really?

Is that even a Kluger? Even if it is, we don't know the exact facts surrounding the accident. Perhaps it rolled due to a collision with a larger vehicle? Perhaps the driver lost control of the vehicle causing it to run off the road and roll down a steep hill? That could happen to any vehicle given the circumstances.

In fact, I recently witnessed an accident where the driver rolled his car because he saw an animal on the road and swerved to avoid hitting it. He went off the road and rolled the car into some bushes. The car he was driving was not a Kluger. :

[Barry_v]

if a 18yo P plater related the same story about how he rolled his mums klugar 'because the ESP programming was wrong' would your thoughts be the same?

[Bossxr8]

That photo is a Kluger, look at the wheels, definately the ones on the last model Kluger.

[hy_boi]

Yeah like I said its the last model highlander/kluger, Grande model,

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by B-Series

Yes, it is very impressive. The cabin is still very much intact which is what counts.

On the other hand, this is not impressive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-9vAJb_-Zo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P4x7szFy4U

Notice how the front part of the cabin crumbles.



Qualified experts have tested these cars and have awarded them 4 star ratings. Last time I checked, a 4 star rating was more than acceptable.

Epic fail by you.

The Renault Clio II 1.2 you linked (2000 model) has a 4.5/5 star NCAP rating, as with every Clio II model. And the cabin does not deform. Also note, the Renault Clio II was released in 1998.

The Renault Clio I you linked (1997 model) is a car that was originally introduced in 1989. Why don't you link some 1980s Toyotas and see how they fare in comparison? That would be totally awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIcRVL_pBZM

Like this one. Oooh yeah, gotta love those buckling rooves. :

That's actually a newer model car then a Clio I, those were released around 1992!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coWbbT0HaKA

More Corolla cabin/roof deformation...

Some awesome integrity by another brand with fabled quality (the Honda Civic), this is of similar age to the Renault Clio I, actually slightly newer by release year...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyFkL_TEBDg

Notice how well the Ford does there (very impressed!).

As you can see by those late 80s/early 90s cars... the Clio I is actually right about there with the norm for the time as far as saftey goes. But yeah, nice try to... well I don't know what you were trying to acheive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMnzdFbDgFc

This next one looks like its actually one of those new ultra safe Chinese cars...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r18EhmrzKw0

I know how bad those RAVs are, because I was in a '92 Verada that rear ended one at 50km/h. RAV4 = total write off, roof buckled, chassis rails snapped at the bottem after bending upwards... totally stuffed. Magna... as you'd expect the front end was stuffed and that was that.

Oh, one other thing... you can rave on about experts all you like... but tell me what you would rather do... take the word of some bloke or decide for yourself after watching what happens? I don't know about you, but after seeing some of those videos, there are lots of cars I'd steer clear of. Or you could just make sure never to open your window with your Toyota so that your head doesn't fly out and smash on the pillar...

A tad unrelated but...

If you want real saftey... buy a carbon fibre supercar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUPq760LC00

[LUXO_8]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Roofline appears wrong, can you post further photos, looks more like an Avensis.

Im looking at a Kluger right now, few things look a bit out but cant be certain.

yep, roofline is pretty wrong, being that its squashed and all....

definantly a kluger/highlander, headlight is a give away as are wheels

[B-Series]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Oh, one other thing... you can rave on about experts all you like... but tell me what you would rather do... take the word of some bloke or decide for yourself after watching what happens? I don't know about you, but after seeing some of those videos, there are lots of cars I'd steer clear of. Or you could just make sure never to open your window with your Toyota so that your head doesn't fly out and smash on the pillar...

Hmm... who would I rather believe; experts who have gone to university and earned respectable degrees (in other words 'qualified people') or a 'know it all' teenage boy who works at the local service department?

Steffo has my vote for sure (sarcasm).

You can argue all you want about modern toyotas being unsafe. The fact is that all the current models have 4 and 5 star NCAP safety ratings. Safety ratings are determined by test results and cold hard fact rather than opinion and bias.

It looks like your credibility has been shot to pieces once again.

The Clio cabin does partially crumble and the dashboard is pushed back causing serious injury to the driver. Just look at the crash test - it looks terrible. In contrast, look at the Lancer video. The bonnet/engine bay crumbles and absorbs the impact but the cabin (where the dash and the driver is) stays 100% intact. Someone like you would probably need to watch the video 100 times before the logic finally clicks in your head.

The new lancer is very likely to acheive a 5 star rating when the test occurs. In fact, it was specifically designed to achieve such a rating. Oh, the new Corolla also has a 5 star rating - cold hard fact.

And after all this, Steffo still says: "the 2008 lancer has the structural integrity of a paper cup".

I pity the fool.

Note: it wasn't my intention to compare the safety of a 2008 car with a 1997 car. The videos were merely put up to show you the difference between an intact cabin and a deformed one.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by B-Series

Is that even a Kluger? Even if it is, we don't know the exact facts surrounding the accident. Perhaps it rolled due to a collision with a larger vehicle? Perhaps the driver lost control of the vehicle causing it to run off the road and roll down a steep hill? That could happen to any vehicle given the circumstances.

In fact, I recently witnessed an accident where the driver rolled his car because he saw an animal on the road and swerved to avoid hitting it. He went off the road and rolled the car into some bushes. The car he was driving was not a Kluger. :

The facts of the rollover are irrelevant, you said you've never heard of one ever rolling, giving the impression that you assume they are un-rollable.

Another pic

[XR Martin]

I think this one rolled too

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by B-Series

Hmm... who would I rather believe; experts who have gone to university and earned respectable degrees (in other words 'qualified people') or a 'know it all' teenage boy who works at the local service department?

Steffo has my vote for sure (sarcasm).

You can argue all you want about modern toyotas being unsafe. The fact is that all the current models have 4 and 5 star NCAP safety ratings. Safety ratings are determined by test results and cold hard fact rather than opinion and bias.

It looks like your credibility has been shot to pieces once again.

The Clio cabin does partially crumble and the dashboard is pushed back causing serious injury to the driver. Just look at the crash test - it looks terrible. In contrast, look at the Lancer video. The bonnet/engine bay crumbles and absorbs the impact but the cabin (where the dash and the driver is) stays 100% intact. Someone like you would probably need to watch the video 100 times before the logic finally clicks in your head.

The new lancer is very likely to acheive a 5 star rating when the test occurs. In fact, it was specifically designed to achieve such a rating. Oh, the new Corolla also has a 5 star rating - cold hard fact.

And after all this, Steffo still says: "the 2008 lancer has the structural integrity of a paper cup".

I pity the fool.

Note: it wasn't my intention to compare the safety of a 2008 car with a 1997 car. The videos were merely put up to show you the difference between an intact cabin and a deformed one.

The Renault Clio I (1989 release year) cabin does deform.

The Renault Clio II (1998 release year) cabin doesn't. It doesn't score 4.5/5 in EuroNCAP without reason.

Now if you want to make the comparison fair, talking about the new lancer, how about the Renault Clio III (2005 release year) then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSoYzp23V2o

There's a 5/5 star EuroNCAP car. Oh would you look at that, no deformation of the cabin! No movement of the dashboard! No deformation of the frame in the side impact test! Apples to apples buddy, trying to compare a decade old car to a new one going "look, look... you must be wrong," doesn't smell of common sense, but rather, desperation to e-fight and win.

You talk about about credability yet you compare cars from 1989 and 1998 to a car from 2008?

Good one, genius. : :

PS - Its also extremley funny how you completley ignore the video posted of how much worse the 1992 Corolla and Civic are in comparison with the 1989-1997 Renault Clio I. Oh wait, perhaps because that completley destroys your argument, not that you really had one in the first place! :togo: :