Has your ZF milkshaked poll - POST 2012 ONLY

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Except we are being told it's safe to operate a transmission at 30°C on the say so of a person who works on a ZF help desk.

If that info came from one of the engineers who designed the box, then I might take notice.

I'll ask again...Why do all manufacturers use heat exchangers?
ZF help desk reckon you don't need one. Rolls Royce think you do. So do Ford.

Look I'm totally behind eliminating the problem (if there is one) but lets get the facts straight and to me a chat with a "ZF tech" doesn't cut it.

Please read this, https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=216
and thus, http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...&postcount=219

The guy was a ZF tech I assure you, he rang me after I sent an email to ZF.

Not saying that it is ok to run the trans at 30C, only that is its minimum optimum operating temp for fuel efficiency, obviously once warmed up the running temp will be much higher, but wil typically be running 30C cooler without the heat exchanger and with an air/oil cooler installed.

Your trans temp at start up will be similar to the ambient temp, a heat exchanger is designed to heat the trans up as quickly as possible in order to minimise fuel consumption and therefore reduce emissions, that's the reason manufacturers use them, the negative side of this is the risk of "Milkshake" and higher running temps for the trans, up to 105C or more is commonly seen, Ford supply a supplementary air/oil cooler for towing to assist the heat exchanger to cool the trans.

With the heat exchanger removed and the air/oil cooler installed the trans will reach its minimum optimum operating temp of 30C in 2-5 minutes depending on ambient, because it has a designed in strategy to do that, it does not need a heat exchanger to heat it, but it does need a cooler to cool it and it will still run at lower temps within the normal operating temp range, typically 30C cooler than with a heat exchanger installed and with no risk of a "Milkshake"

Just trying to let people know that the option of the air/oil cooler is not going to impact negatively on the ZF6.

Anyone can email ZF and ask the question.

My trans is running on average at 45C - 65C, done a lot of monitoring here, https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11441275 if your interested

Regards, George

[arronm]

Agree, having a cooler is best. The heat exchanger cant remove the excess heat from high performance and cars that tow.

I would say running the trans above 100c will kill it twice as fast as running it cooler ( just with oil/air).


For me I prefer to have both. Cars out of warranty have PWR heat exchanger and in series PWR air/oil cooler. Cars with warranty have STD ford heat exchanger (changed at 100k) and in series PWR air/oil cooler.

I haven't monitored temps , but I reckon would be 75 - 85c.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Thanks Arronm,

Appreciate your support and comments.

The PWR heat exchanger is a viable alternative as you say and has no history of failure to date, although it is a much more expensive option and not my preferred one, the combination of the two also works well in reducing running temps.

Running cooler definitely extends the life of the trans and its fluid considerably.

Just like to add that the ZF6 constantly tunes its self, its called adaptive mode, it will adapt and change its gear selection strategy according to changes in your driving style, ambient temp, during cornering, going up and down hills and input from sensors of engine temp, its own fluid temp and much more, its a very smart trans, so it adapts pretty quickly to any changes brought about by removing the heat exchanger and installing an air/oil cooler, some of that info was posted earlier in his thread here,
http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...&postcount=219

lots more info and poll here about the ZF6 and air/oil coolers here, https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11441275
if your interested please take the trouble to read my thread.

Regards, George

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Sorry, double post

Just so not to waste space, may I ask how many that voted "NO" in the poll have fitted an air/oil cooler?

Answer is probably none, but worth asking

Asked the question in the other milkshake poll but got nothing but criticism for asking.

Regards, George

[Silver Ghia]

I'm not bothering anymore when gmoughton takes over yet another thread and spreads his mantra continuously, ignoring details provided in the email sent by ZF and adds his own interpretation, such as optimum temperature range which he continues mentioning even after being advised that is incorrect.

Maybe as an engineer I approach these subjects too much from an analytical direction, where alternatives and discussion are all considered to determine the best course or courses of action. No doubt an air to fluid heat exchanger is the obvious choice, but I disagree how gmoughton goes about promoting this method without any consideration for anything alse, and also ignores any drawbacks with this method, which there are.

So I'm off, why bother when discussing with someone so obsessed.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

I'm not bothering anymore when gmoughton takes over yet another thread and spreads his mantra continuously, ignoring details provided in the email sent by ZF and adds his own interpretation, such as optimum temperature range which he continues mentioning even after being advised that is incorrect.

Maybe as an engineer I approach these subjects too much from an analytical direction, where alternatives and discussion are all considered to determine the best course or courses of action. No doubt an air to fluid heat exchanger is the obvious choice, but I disagree how gmoughton goes about promoting this method without any consideration for anything alse, and also ignores any drawbacks with this method, which there are.

So I'm off, why bother when discussing with someone so obsessed.

I am also an Engineer, am very analytical and methodical and do give consideration to all other options, but in the absence of any factual evidence in support of any advice contrary to that obtained from the ZF tech its clear to me why you choose to ignore my word on the details of the telephone conversation and only read and believe the parts of the email that suits your side of the discussion only.

How can you advise me I am providing incorrect information without supporting evidence to the contrary?

For example, no one has ever posted actual ZF6 operating temps in this Forum before, they have only made vague statements such as "normal operating temp" without actual figures, that and other unsubstantiated misinformation was why I contacted ZF.

I am merely sticking to my guns in the interest of all Forum members who may be adversely influenced by unsubstantiated misinformation, I make no apologies for my passion.

Regards, George

[prydey]

If you go out in the sun, there is a risk of skin cancer. It's the same argument.

Scaremongering works by making the risk seem much worse than what it is. That is all I see in these threads. The same couple of people pushing their barrow despite the thousands of falcons and territories out there with no problems.

Adding discussion about gearbox longevity is just muddying the waters. The gearbox, if serviced correctly, will last the life of the car. There is no risk of premature failure related to oil temp with the factory setup.

The sole purpose of starting another poll was to determine if the failure rate was any different in later built cars than the original poll. In hindsight I should have just made it FGX and SZ2.

[blackf6]

Just dump the slush box guys. Problem fixed. Auto cars are the devils spawn.

[Mont5.0]

All this talk of Milkshakes is making me thirsty.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by Mont5.0

All this talk of Milkshakes is making me thirsty.

https://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11461267

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by prydey

If you go out in the sun, there is a risk of skin cancer. It's the same argument.

Scaremongering works by making the risk seem much worse than what it is. That is all I see in these threads. The same couple of people pushing their barrow despite the thousands of falcons and territories out there with no problems.

Adding discussion about gearbox longevity is just muddying the waters. The gearbox, if serviced correctly, will last the life of the car. There is no risk of premature failure related to oil temp with the factory setup.


The sole purpose of starting another poll was to determine if the failure rate was any different in later built cars than the original poll. In hindsight I should have just made it FGX and SZ2.

Some people use sun screen, some don't, so should we stop the anti cancer campaign, not share the info about it, call it scaremongering and pretend the risk of it doesn't exist?

Not scaremongering just sharing perfectly valid and qualified information, people can make their own decisions about what they do or do not do with the information, have never said the risk is high, only that it exists, and there is a risk related to temp with the factory set up, it can overheat the trans when towing or heavily loaded, once the fluid has been overheated it is stuffed and the trans will suffer permanent damage if the fluid is not changed, that's why Ford recommend driving in perf mode when towing and market a supplementary air/oil cooler to assist the heat exchanger to cool, the ZF6 does not need to be run at such unnecessarily high temps as it does with the heat exchanger fitted, again what you do with this info is entirely up to the individual.

People where being led to believe that air/oil coolers ran the trans at colder temps than where good for them with misleading unqualified info and that is why I approached ZF and got qualified answers, not muddying waters, dispelling false info so people can make decisions based on factual info.

The poll is was it is and if there are any valid incidents of heat exchanger failure posted then people will make their own minds up about what that means for them, same as my info and yours, but please people validate what you say with qualified info not vague statements.

I appreciate your intentions in posting the poll and merely ask that you appreciate my intentions in posting any relevant qualified info.

The risk is low, but it exists, live with it or without it, your choice.

Regards, George

[Vesper Martini]

Shouldn't you be driving a Camry George?

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Shouldn't you be driving a Camry George?

Have been last 2 weeks, hired, bloody awful thing, can't hire Falcons anymore, was great to get back in the Ghia

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

I am also an Engineer, am very analytical and methodical and do give consideration to all other options, but in the absence of any factual evidence in support of any advice contrary to that obtained from the ZF tech its clear to me why you choose to ignore my word on the details of the telephone conversation and only read and believe the parts of the email that suits your side of the discussion only.

How can you advise me I am providing incorrect information without supporting evidence to the contrary?

Fooled me with the manner of your posts including your reference to the poll without any thought how those figures were arrived at, and your use of the word 'optimum'.

Such as:

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Not saying that it is ok to run the trans at 30C, only that is its minimum optimum operating temp for fuel efficiency

When the email from ZF says its minimum normal temperature.

Maybe the German at the other end of the phone was a little caught up with his English as they do, but was corrected in the email?

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

I'm not bothering anymore when gmoughton takes over yet another thread and spreads his mantra continuously, ignoring details provided in the email sent by ZF and adds his own interpretation, such as optimum temperature range which he continues mentioning even after being advised that is incorrect.

Maybe as an engineer I approach these subjects too much from an analytical direction, where alternatives and discussion are all considered to determine the best course or courses of action. No doubt an air to fluid heat exchanger is the obvious choice, but I disagree how gmoughton goes about promoting this method without any consideration for anything alse, and also ignores any drawbacks with this method, which there are.

So I'm off, why bother when discussing with someone so obsessed.

Sadly every ZF thread ends up like this.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

and there is a risk related to temp with the factory set up, it can overheat the trans when towing or heavily loaded, once the fluid has been overheated it is stuffed and the trans will suffer permanent damage if the fluid is not changed, that's why Ford recommend driving in perf mode when towing and market a supplementary air/oil cooler to assist the heat exchanger to cool, the ZF6 does not need to be run at such unnecessarily high temps as it does with the heat exchanger fitted, again what you do with this info is entirely up to the individual.

so you aren't scaremongering, yet sprout the above??

back on the topic, from where i sit, there is no evidence to suggest the problem still exists with FGX or SZ2.

[SensationFG8]

To be fair Silver Ghia I think gmoughton is using optimal with reference to fuel economy, at least this is the way I read the post.

EG the trans needs to get to at least 30 degrees and from there it's running in a mode that is optimal for fuel economy.

Obviously the transmission will work at lower temperatures than 30 degrees. If it didn't work at lower temps we'd be stuffed on a cold morning in Melbourne.

Looking at the posts it seems the absolute minimum operation temperature is -20, ie if I start it on a cold day in Europe the transmission will function and not be completely frozen.

The minimum temperature the transmission needs to get good fuel economy and be operating normally is 30 degrees. If it drops below that the trans will try to heat itself up to get itself to at least 30 degrees. I guess the only caveat here is ZF didn't state in the email that 30degrees was for optimal fuel economy, however, this is the temp they stop actively heating the transmission via their warmup strategy. The interesting thought I have here is what is the warmup strategy and can that cause premature wear of the transmission if over used? If your cooler is so good the temps drop under 30 and this strategy kicks in a lot does that cause more wear?

[2242100]

I think Servicing is a very important issue.

During the warranty period of my FG XR6 Turbo, I worked on the assumption that (given the Automotive World's commercial pressures), even the best dealerships rarely get everything right (of course I'm speaking in overall terms here).

A BIT EXTREME ?

Well, maybe yes or then again maybe not ?

Why ? Well.....

1) Checking coolant quality is one of the most important issues and also one of the easiest things to do, but don't the easiest things often get left untill last ?

And, I'd also say that in the real world, it more than often wont get done unless it looks a bit dirty, but of course isn't that way too late ?

So now, lets think of an everyday real would situation.............

It's late on a Friday afternoon and the customer is expecting his car to be ready at 4 PM on the dot, but it's already nearly 4 PM and the and the mechanic has only just started.

The coolant looks pretty clean, so what does he do, or perhaps I should ask.........

WHAT DOESN'T HE DO ?
I THINK WE ALL KNOW THE ANSWER.

AND FINALLY.........

2) Different dealerships use different coolants with different mix ratios that the mechanics are supposed to adhere to.

So again, how many skilled mechanics run a high risk of getting that wrong under real world pressures ?

I'D SAY A LOT.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Running cooler definitely extends the life of the trans and its fluid considerably.


Regards, George

I'm gunna start a campaign where we all remove the thermostats from our donks cos cold=better.

Who's in?

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by prydey

so you aren't scaremongering, yet sprout the above??

back on the topic, from where i sit, there is no evidence to suggest the problem still exists with FGX or SZ2.

No issues with my SZII .... I voted No

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by 2242100

I think Servicing is a very important issue.

During the warranty period of my FG XR6 Turbo, I worked on the assumption that (given the Automotive World's commercial pressures), even the best dealerships rarely get everything right (of course I'm speaking in overall terms here).

A BIT EXTREME ?

Well, maybe yes or then again maybe not ?

Why ? Well.....

1) Checking coolant quality is one of the most important issues and also one of the easiest things to do, but don't the easiest things often get left untill last ?

And I'd also say that in the real world, it more than often wont get done unless it looks a bit dirty, but of course isn't that way too late ?

So now, lets think of an everyday real would situation.............

It's late on a Friday afternoon and the customer is expecting his car to be ready at 4 PM on the dot, but it's already nearly 4 PM and the and the mechanic has only just started.

The coolant looks pretty clean, so what does he do, or perhaps I should ask.........

WHAT DOESN'T HE DO ?
I THINK WE ALL KNOW THE ANSWER.

AND FINALLY.........

2) Different dealer ships use different coolants with different mix ratios that the mechanics are supposed to adhere to.

So again, how many skilled mechanics run a high risk of getting that wrong ?

I'd say a lot.

The other thing is how many dealerships actually flush out all the old coolant from the heater and engine block? Considering that in the FG Falcon there is over 3 litres of old coolant remaining in the cooling system after draining, whether drained from the bottom hose or the drain tap at the bottom of the radiator. There is no drain in the engine block.

Ford do not specify flushing after draining in their WSM procedure for changing coolant. Besides, the three year interval for coolant as specified in the service book is at least one year too long, for the factory coolant.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

To be fair Silver Ghia I think gmoughton is using optimal with reference to fuel economy, at least this is the way I read the post.

EG the trans needs to get to at least 30 degrees and from there it's running in a mode that is optimal for fuel economy.

Obviously the transmission will work at lower temperatures than 30 degrees. If it didn't work at lower temps we'd be stuffed on a cold morning in Melbourne.

Looking at the posts it seems the absolute minimum operation temperature is -20, ie if I start it on a cold day in Europe the transmission will function and not be completely frozen.

The minimum temperature the transmission needs to get good fuel economy and be operating normally is 30 degrees. If it drops below that the trans will try to heat itself up to get itself to at least 30 degrees. I guess the only caveat here is ZF didn't state in the email that 30degrees was for optimal fuel economy, however, this is the temp they stop actively heating the transmission via their warmup strategy. The interesting thought I have here is what is the warmup strategy and can that cause premature wear of the transmission if over used? If your cooler is so good the temps drop under 30 and this strategy kicks in a lot does that cause more wear?

Going by that, 'optimal' would mean the temperature at which to achieve the best fuel economy. Therefore it cannot be across the whole 30^oC to 120^oC temperature range. It would be closer to the temperature when warmed up in the factory configuration. Why else would Ford and other manufacturers warm the transmission fluid up to the higher temperatures using coolant? To achieve the best fuel economy.

But in any case we have the email from ZF which says that is the normal transmission operation temperature range for the transmission, not 'optimal' temperature.

[mexicov]

Mercury Bullet. If you lived in a cold climate you would soon be complaining of lack of cabin heating and higher fuel consumption.

[arronm]

That's the reason you don't take your car to Ford and perform all the work yourself. Then it's done properly. I service a fleet of 10 family cars, even have a hoist to make it easier. It's all about regular servicing and preventative maintenance.

[northiam]

I wonder if the 12% failure poll reflects real world. https://fordforums.com.au/poll.php?d...ts&pollid=2246

Many thickshake occurrences are clearing V8 models which had internal radiator coolers…
Some of the 12%ers are single posters which could be bogus posters created by someone stacking the failure numbers maybe?

Most seems are older BF models which had coolant bypass thermostats which diverted coolant from the heatexchanger until the coolant was hotter.
This forever flow and bypass of the cooler may have attributed to the failures?
Maybe the cooler thermostat have failed closed or partially, cause the next new HE cooler to fail?
http://www.furitech.com.au/wp-conten...llation-24.jpg

Ford seems to have eliminated these thermostats quite early.

My FG 5speed 5R55 heat changer cooler is supplied with coolant from the lower parts of the engine block far cooler than 95degC at the head exit.
The flow to the heatexchanger is constant and would even increase when the main thermostat at the head exit is closed.

Regards

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by mexicov

Mercury Bullet. If you lived in a cold climate you would soon be complaining of lack of cabin heating and higher fuel consumption.

And most likely a blown engine (oops it already is...)

On a more serious note, my post was very much tongue in cheek.

[imamuckypup]

my XR8 was a radiator failure even with regular service and coolant change
didn't even start to change the colour of the coolant just started to notice auto slipping
went straight to shop and got auto checked and the trans fluid was just starting to honey..
but alas the damage was already done :(

[Mechan1k]

JR's XR8 was the same ... but his is an 08/09
Ford replaced the radiator and transmission due to the recall. No cost to him from my understanding.

[FPV-F6-310FPV]

I have a FPV F6 built date is March 2014, has done a little over 42k kms and has been tuned with 330rwkw and no milkshake. Touch on wood it doesn't occur.

[imamuckypup]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

JR's XR8 was the same ... but his is an 08/09
Ford replaced the radiator and transmission due to the recall. No cost to him from my understanding.

mine was mid 09 and no mention of a recall to me