Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

If it's a lightish car trailer you'd squeeze it under the 2300kg limit but as someone else said, that limit only applies with a heavy duty tow kit, else it falls back to the default 1600/1700kg limit.

I towed 2 tonne with a BA falcon for around 10 years with no problem at all, but a little care is required. I had stiff springs put on, XR6 alloys with lower profile wet weather tyres, heavy duty tow bar, a load-levelling kit and a heavy duty height-adjustable tow hitch. It did ride harder than a regular falcon but the handling felt pretty solid and I don't like a pillowy soft ride anyway.

That car went up hills in first or second gear pulling 2 tonne and didn't ever get hot, it didn't ever let me down. My biggest concern would be braking, but I used a pendulum electric brake controller and had no issues.

So long as you're within spec and have some respect for what you're doing I don't have issue with people towing with falcons. Get a feel for the car, the weight it's pulling, how the car handles differently with that weight and how it affects braking, corners/etc.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sox

That's not right.
It's just as easy to overload the ball as it is to not have enough on the ball.

Aim for between 5% and 10% of the loaded trailer weight on the ball.
For example, if the loaded trailer is 2000kg, somewhere between 100kg and 200kg will tow well.

I wouldn't be running as light as 5% ball weight and definitely not with a 2t load being pulled by a car of similar weight or lighter. 10% is the aim according to most owners manuals.

Many Euro caravans are setup to run lighter ball weights but we are talking cars on car trailers here. Low ball weight is an accident waiting to happen.

There is a belief that weight on the rear results in reduced front grip and understeer, but how many accidents are caused by understeer? Most, if not all are caused by oversteer, often in the shape of a jack knife. Rear grip is critical, especially under lateral load.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

I wouldn't be running as light as 5% ball weight and definitely not with a 2t load being pulled by a car of similar weight or lighter. 10% is the aim according to most owners manuals.

Many Euro caravans are setup to run lighter ball weights but we are talking cars on car trailers here. Low ball weight is an accident waiting to happen.

There is a belief that weight on the rear results in reduced front grip and understeer, but how many accidents are caused by understeer? Most, if not all are caused by oversteer, often in the shape of a jack knife. Rear grip is critical, especially under lateral load.

I've played around with ball weights a lot, and initially used the 5% figure because of the Euro's.
Trust me when I say it works well, and even works better depending on what you're towing it with.
10% is too high in some instances with certain cars (stock suspension, coil spring rear ends), causing too much pitching and diving even with a WDH.
Drawbar length plays a large part in how much ballweight is needed, the longer it is the more stable it is and the less ballweight needed.

Try it before you knock it - I actually generally aim for around 7.5% and tweak from there.

[prydey]

Euro's get away with it because they also run other systems like sway control etc with their vans.

Manufacturers mostly specify 10%. Some even have it as minimum of 10%.

I wouldn't compensate for a poor choice of tow vehicle by reducing ball weight. In the context of towing a car on a car trailer, it's always going to be at least 2t and often well north of that, which is why you should have at least 200kg on the ball. No way I would ever advocate towing over 2t with 5% ball weight. I wouldn't recommend adjusting the ball weight lighter by moving the load rearward either.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

Euro's get away with it because they also run other systems like sway control etc with their vans.

Manufacturers mostly specify 10%. Some even have it as minimum of 10%.

I wouldn't compensate for a poor choice of tow vehicle by reducing ball weight. In the context of towing a car on a car trailer, it's always going to be at least 2t and often well north of that, which is why you should have at least 200kg on the ball. No way I would ever advocate towing over 2t with 5% ball weight. I wouldn't recommend adjusting the ball weight lighter by moving the load rearward either.

I didn't say anything about a poor choice of tow vehicle, so why mention it?

The only way to adjust ballweight on a car trailer is to shift some of the weight rearward (or forward), so I'm not sure why you wouldn't recommend it.
How do you adjust ballweight on a trailer?...

As I mentioned in an earlier post, too much ballweight is just as bad as not enough ballweight.

Ballweight is not an exact science, and manufactures know this. 10% is a guide, and not an exact figure.
You'd know this if you tried various numbers for yourself.

Until you have tried it yourself, you're only guessing.

[Sox]

Further to the above, I don't know of any tow hitches which are rated to allow greater than 10% ballweight and in fact some are only rated to allow 5% ballweight.
I'm not sure how manufactures could recommend greater than 10% if pulling the maximum weight...

Read this in it's entirety.

https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.c...iler-stability

The higher ballweights came from the silly yanks, surprise surprise...

Real studies have shown that 6-8% is the magic number.

[Warrenk]

Originally Posted by Sox

Further to the above, I don't know of any tow hitches which are rated to allow greater than 10% ballweight and in fact some are only rated to allow 5% ballweight.


The higher ballweights came from the silly yanks, surprise surprise...

Real studies have shown that 6-8% is the magic number.

Tow hitches are not rated for ballweight, they are rated for max weight of the trailer the vehicle can tow. They only thing higher ball weights do is drop the load you can carry in the tow vehicle(and can make the towed vehicle more stable). The figure for ball weight is not a fixed figure, it is more of rule of thumb, In Europe the general figure is 5 -7%(which can also be lower), but as mentioned earlier they have systems in place on their trailers to help stop sway, in Australia the figure is around 8 - 10% with usually 10% the selected figure and in the US 10 - 15%. There are reasons there are different figures in different countries, but you will probably find it is the choice of tow vehicle that is available in these countries.
Can you give a link to the "real studies" you say show the magic number. Maybe you should join and move your argument to http://www.caravanersforum.com regarding your knowledge on the ideal towball weight.

Warren

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Warrenk

Tow hitches are not rated for ballweight, they are rated for max weight of the trailer the vehicle can tow. They only thing higher ball weights do is drop the load you can carry in the tow vehicle(and can make the towed vehicle more stable). The figure for ball weight is not a fixed figure, it is more of rule of thumb, In Europe the general figure is 5 -7%(which can also be lower), but as mentioned earlier they have systems in place on their trailers to help stop sway, in Australia the figure is around 8 - 10% with usually 10% the selected figure and in the US 10 - 15%. There are reasons there are different figures in different countries, but you will probably find it is the choice of tow vehicle that is available in these countries.
Can you give a link to the "real studies" you say show the magic number. Maybe you should join and move your argument to http://www.caravanersforum.com regarding your knowledge on the ideal towball weight.

Warren

Towbars/hitches are absolutely rated for ballweight, it is stamped on the ID tag along with the the rated towing capacity.
It's part of the ADR's.
As far as Ive seen it's a maximum of 10%, and in some cases 5%.

The link I provided earlier made reference to the study, but I don't have a link to the actual study.

In any case, try it for yourself, it's not difficult to shift the weight of a loaded car trailer.
I have and the results vary.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sox

I didn't say anything about a poor choice of tow vehicle, so why mention it?

you said this earlier

Originally Posted by Sox

10% is too high in some instances with certain cars (stock suspension, coil spring rear ends), causing too much pitching and diving even with a WDH.

which is many hallmarks of a tow vehicle not fully suited to the task. If you have a car portraying these traits at 10% ball weight, then you have a poor choice of tow vehicle. That's why I mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Sox

I'm not sure how manufactures could recommend greater than 10% if pulling the maximum weight...

this is one of many reasons why I believe you should always have some tolerance to your cars max ratings. This is the problem with using falcons to tow falcons, as per the thread title. Sure, people have shown that you can tow a car on a car trailer, with a normal passenger car, however its been pointed out that most of the time, while it may tow 'fine', it will be bordering on illegal, or will be illegal. How many would bother to check their rear axle weight?

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

you said this earlier

which is many hallmarks of a tow vehicle not fully suited to the task. If you have a car portraying these traits at 10% ball weight, then you have a poor choice of tow vehicle. That's why I mentioned it.

Not necessarily, just need to make some adjustments, that is to reduce the ballweight a little.
It's works wonders.

this is one of many reasons why I believe you should always have some tolerance to your cars max ratings. This is the problem with using falcons to tow falcons, as per the thread title. Sure, people have shown that you can tow a car on a car trailer, with a normal passenger car, however its been pointed out that most of the time, while it may tow 'fine', it will be bordering on illegal, or will be illegal. How many would bother to check their rear axle weight?

I've been towing with Falcons for a loooong time, more than 30 years.
It's easy, safe, and legal if you do it properly, but you need to think outside the square at times and do what works rather than what the norm say should work.
Prove it to yourself...

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Sox

Further to the above, I don't know of any tow hitches which are rated to allow greater than 10% ballweight and in fact some are only rated to allow 5% ballweight.
I'm not sure how manufactures could recommend greater than 10% if pulling the maximum weight...

Read this in it's entirety.

https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.c...iler-stability

The higher ballweights came from the silly yanks, surprise surprise...

Real studies have shown that 6-8% is the magic number.

I don't tow anything bigger than a 6x4 with my Volvo s80 so I haven't dug into the weights but I do know that for a 2200kg car it has a measly 50kg ball limit.

Is that some euro thing?

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

I don't tow anything bigger than a 6x4 with my Volvo s80 so I haven't dug into the weights but I do know that for a 2200kg car it has a measly 50kg ball limit.

Is that some euro thing?

Well there's your first problem...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sox

I've been towing with Falcons for a loooong time, more than 30 years.
It's easy, safe, and legal if you do it properly, but you need to think outside the square at times and do what works rather than what the norm say should work.
Prove it to yourself...

I'm not saying it's not possible, but towing a falcon with a falcon you do have to be very aware of all your weights to keep it legal. Modern falcons weigh the best part of 1800kg for the base model, which only leaves a max of 500kg for the trailer and associated hardware. It's not much. Also I know the GVM for a FG is only 2240kg from memory which doesn't leave a lot for payload. Factor in a driver, fuel and ball weight and there isn't much room for much by way of luggage or passengers. I can't remember what the rear axle rating was but this is also a limiting factor. They are primarily built for family transport these days.

So yes, it can be done, but to stay legal you need to know all your weights.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Sox

That's not right.
It's just as easy to overload the ball as it is to not have enough on the ball.

Aim for between 5% and 10% of the loaded trailer weight on the ball.
For example, if the loaded trailer is 2000kg, somewhere between 100kg and 200kg will tow well.

Nope, he was right.
When you're towing near the limit, you want to err on the side of weight forward, and keeping plenty of load on your rear axle. Two much weight behind centre on the trailer will create a pendulum effect.

[arronm]

You really cant legally tow a late model falcon with a falcon.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Nope, he was right.
When you're towing near the limit, you want to err on the side of weight forward, and keeping plenty of load on your rear axle. Two much weight behind centre on the trailer will create a pendulum effect.

Nope, he was not right.

His words were - Winch the towed vehicle as far forward as possible (load up the tow ball), helps prevent jack knifing at the speed limit :/

This is absolutely not correct.
Doing this will in many cases go over the legal ballweight of many cars.


Yes, you want more weight on the front of the trailer than the rear. That's a given.
A good guide is somewhere between 5%-10%, and tests have shown that 6%-8% are the ideal numbers to aim for, as already shown.

It's equally unsafe to have too much ballweight as it is to have not enough.

You shouldn't post if you don't know what you're talking about, you'll encourage dangerous and illegal tow rigs.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sox

and tests have shown that 6%-8% are the ideal numbers to aim for, as already shown.

I think you are cherry picking articles to back up this claim.

Personally I'd be running closer to the 10% mark as recommended by the manufacturer. Toyota recommend 9-11%. Pretty sure the manufacturer knows a thing or two about the car they built.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

I think you are cherry picking articles to back up this claim.

Personally I'd be running closer to the 10% mark as recommended by the manufacturer. Toyota recommend 9-11%. Pretty sure the manufacturer knows a thing or two about the car they built.

I'm not cherry picking anything.
I'm agreeing with the tests which support my own experience.
My experience comes from seeing what the Euros have been doing for a long time.
I tried it and have done a lot of testing for myself - as I said earlier in this thread, why don't you try it for yourself.

Manufacturers do a lot of strange things.
How come you don't question why towbars don't have a ballweight which is greater than 10%?

What about the poster earlier with a rated maximum ballweight of only 50kg (and many others)?
What happened to 10%?...

[Cav]

Have you heard the latest news in QLD?


Mr Bailey is presiding over new laws which will stop 4WD vehicles from towing caravans, boats, horse floats and trailers because they exceed their legal carrying capacity. The new laws mean bullbars, winches, water tanks and extended fuel tanks take bigger vehicles over the weight limit allowed to tow.

Vehicles operated in excess of legal carrying capacity are declared unsafe and are not covered by insurance.

The new laws will affect up to 200,000 grey nomads in Queensland, as well as fishermen and horse lovers.

Even police and SES vehicles will be affected. It means motorists wanting to continue to tow caravans, boats, horse floats and trailers will be forced to now buy large, powerful, expensive and fuel-inefficient imported utes and trucks. The reason? Well we don’t really know although it’s a fair bet it is safety-related.

The caravan association’s peak body and private operators who supply bullbars and winches to the industry have repeatedly written to Mr Bailey asking for a seat at the table to discuss the new laws, which take effect in two weeks.

They didn’t get a reply. It seems inconceivable that an industry peak body - representing hundreds of thousands of people — would write to a minister asking for information and be snubbed.

And the absurdity is that while the government is punishing Queenslanders by imposing draconian new rules around towing, if somebody from NSW or Victoria crosses the border they’ll be allowed to drive here without the same scrutiny.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...934ea10db7e277

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sox

I'm not cherry picking anything.
I'm agreeing with the tests which support my own experience.
My experience comes from seeing what the Euros have been doing for a long time..

Euro's do a lot of things differently to compensate. They drive smaller cars and build lighter vans to suit. They have restrictions on van weights depending on car size. They have restrictions on speed limits for vehicles towing vans, and they also often mandate usage of additional devices such as 'anti sway' etc, to compensate.

you can't just look at one aspect of the whole picture.

Originally Posted by Sox

Manufacturers do a lot of strange things.
How come you don't question why towbars don't have a ballweight which is greater than 10%?.

They probably don't want people towing at the maximum rating. always best to leave a bit of wiggle room in my view. if you want to tow 2.5t, buy a car good for 3t.

Originally Posted by Sox

What about the poster earlier with a rated maximum ballweight of only 50kg (and many others)?
What happened to 10%?...

not all cars are suitable for towing. its that simple. they have allowed enough to tow a simple garden trailer to the dump etc, or pick up some landscape supplies or furniture, but the car is clearly not suitable for towing anything bigger.
it would be foolhardy and seriously dangerous to buy a car with a towball limit like that, and then try to reduce the ball weight of a heavy trailer down to that limit to try to make it legal.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Cav

Have you heard the latest news in QLD?


[I]Mr Bailey is presiding over new laws which will stop 4WD vehicles from towing caravans, boats, horse floats and trailers because they exceed their legal carrying capacity. The new laws mean bullbars, winches, water tanks and extended fuel tanks take bigger vehicles over the weight limit allowed to tow.

Vehicles operated in excess of legal carrying capacity are declared unsafe and are not covered by insurance.

article is blocked by paywall, but he is correct.

there would be a very large percentage of cars out there that are illegal combinations. there are reports of police starting to undertake roadside testing of weights, just like they do with heavy vehicles, and in my view this needs to become much more widespread.
there are many people out there that tow, or even just load their cars to the hilt, and are unaware of GVM, GCM (if listed), axle weights, trailer ATM/GTM etc.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

Euro's do a lot of things differently to compensate. They drive smaller cars and build lighter vans to suit. They have restrictions on van weights depending on car size. They have restrictions on speed limits for vehicles towing vans, and they also often mandate usage of additional devices such as 'anti sway' etc, to compensate.

you can't just look at one aspect of the whole picture.

I know they do things differently, which is why I looked into it further.

The same can be said about what you're saying, you can't just slap 10% on any and every rig without looking at the whole picture.
It's not needed, nor desirable, or even safe in many circumstances.

They probably don't want people towing at the maximum rating. always best to leave a bit of wiggle room in my view. if you want to tow 2.5t, buy a car good for 3t.

So you want wiggle room with the amount it can tow, but not the limit on ballweight? Interesting...

not all cars are suitable for towing. its that simple. they have allowed enough to tow a simple garden trailer to the dump etc, or pick up some landscape supplies or furniture, but the car is clearly not suitable for towing anything bigger.
it would be foolhardy and seriously dangerous to buy a car with a towball limit like that, and then try to reduce the ball weight of a heavy trailer down to that limit to try to make it legal.

Yet they are still legal, and have limits applied to make them legal, against what you say is gospel.


Just for clarification, I'm not saying 10% is a bad number.
I replied to the guy who said roll the car on a trailer as forward as possible to make ballweight as high as possible - That's just wrong, and may even cause failure.

5% to 10% is a good rule of thumb to work with, generally providing a stable rig.
I would not recommend going under 5%, just as I wouldn't recommend going over 10%.

Yes, I've tried it, a lot.
Yes, tests I've seen agree with my own findings.

Interestingly I haven't seen any real testing done to support the above 10% figure you're suggesting, only recommendations...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sox

So you want wiggle room with the amount it can tow, but not the limit on ballweight? Interesting...

if you are using a car below its towing capacity, then you will also have extra capacity in the ball weight allowed. If you are towing a 2.5t trailer with a car that can tow 3t, then you can have a ball weight up to 300kg (not recommended).

Originally Posted by Sox

Just for clarification, I'm not saying 10% is a bad number.
I replied to the guy who said roll the car on a trailer as forward as possible to make ballweight as high as possible - That's just wrong, and may even cause failure.

5% to 10% is a good rule of thumb to work with, generally providing a stable rig.
I would not recommend going under 5%, just as I wouldn't recommend going over 10%.

I still think 5% is too light when towing north or 2T. Also, I believe you suggested rolling the car back to adjust ballweight, which can also be fraught with danger. I will relent though, and admit that in the case of towing a car, as long as the car is engine to the front on the trailer, most of the weight should still be in front or above the axles, so probably not an issue moving the car around a small amount.

if you aren't sure of the weights though, it is far better to err on the side of being too heavy than too light.

Originally Posted by Sox

Interestingly I haven't seen any real testing done to support the above 10% figure you're suggesting, only recommendations...

do you think manufacturers just pluck the numbers out of the air?

Ford, Toyota and Chrysler, 3 of the biggest manufacturers in the world adopted the SAE J2807 standard, which was introduced some years ago.
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/

They don't just make the numbers up, and to be certified to J2807, they have to pass the tests.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you are using a car below its towing capacity, then you will also have extra capacity in the ball weight allowed. If you are towing a 2.5t trailer with a car that can tow 3t, then you can have a ball weight up to 300kg (not recommended).

And in the event of the 3t trailer with the 3t rating, where then?
I guess you're stuck with the 10% which may not be enough according to you?

Or what about my Falcon wagon with the Hayman Reese tow hitch which is rated for 2300kg and only 120kg ballweight?
Surely the world will end when I tow having only 120kg ballweight with a 2300kg trailer?

Strangely enough, it hasn't.

I still think 5% is too light when towing north or 2T.

You may think what you like, maybe you should try it. I have.

Also, I believe you suggested rolling the car back to adjust ballweight, which can also be fraught with danger.

Why would it be dangerous? Unless you run over your foot or something...
So long as you're within that 5%-10% range you're good to go. Been there done it. Have you?

I will relent though, and admit that in the case of towing a car, as long as the car is engine to the front on the trailer, most of the weight should still be in front or above the axles, so probably not an issue moving the car around a small amount.

if you aren't sure of the weights though, it is far better to err on the side of being too heavy than too light.

Dunno, I've had some wild rides when the ballweight is excessive.
Likewise when the ballweight is too light.

Both are as bad as each other.

do you think manufacturers just pluck the numbers out of the air?

Sometimes yes. To get their car in a certain market segment.
Cars have then been known to be de-rated down the track if problems arise.

Ford, Toyota and Chrysler, 3 of the biggest manufacturers in the world adopted the SAE J2807 standard, which was introduced some years ago.
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/

They don't just make the numbers up, and to be certified to J2807, they have to pass the tests.

I'll check it out later, but a brief skim didn't see much (anything?) on ballweights.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

do you think manufacturers just pluck the numbers out of the air?

Ford, Toyota and Chrysler, 3 of the biggest manufacturers in the world adopted the SAE J2807 standard, which was introduced some years ago.
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/

They don't just make the numbers up, and to be certified to J2807, they have to pass the tests.

Didn't VW have ummm, problems with their diesel emissions - didn't they have to pass tests too?
Manufacturers never make numbers up, never...

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

do you think manufacturers just pluck the numbers out of the air?

Ford, Toyota and Chrysler, 3 of the biggest manufacturers in the world adopted the SAE J2807 standard, which was introduced some years ago.
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/

They don't just make the numbers up, and to be certified to J2807, they have to pass the tests.

I just had a better look at this page.
I'm not sure what relevance big yank POS with fifth wheels have to do with our Falcons towing 2300kg?...

[93EB_SXR6]

Who would have thought that trailers could spark such heated debate..? Amazing.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 93EB_SXR6

Who would have thought that trailers could spark such heated debate..? Amazing.

Debate, yes. Heated? Hardly. It's just a discussion with some differences of opinion.

[xeeclipse]

Tow car 1,600 kg... tow weight 2,400 kg

At 110 km/h the trailer takes over the wheelhouse and your just a passenger and it only gets worse with the less tow ball weight you have.

Falcons are strong, unless your rear end has been breached the chance of buckling or doing any damage is minimal. BTW i only have a factory 1,600 kg tow pack.

[FPV414]

I towed a BA F6 on a trailer designed for plant equipment behind a 5 speed auto FG with no trans cooler from Mossvale NSW to Lilydale VIC. 690KM. Car was loaded backwards as it was smashed and couldn't be moved.

Almost cooked the gearbox and shat me dacks a few times. Was passed and seen by many a Highway Patrol but no one stopped me. So I guess that means it was legal?

I'll never do it again though. Just a good story to tell (y)