All things Solar (merged threads)

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Matty4

Without starting a new thread I thought I'd ask a couple of questions here.
Currently looking at a ~5kw system and one company (Energy Matters) as supplied a quote using REC235PE panels and a Sunny Boy SB5000TL inverter for around $13.5K.

Firstly, are these panels and inverters of sound quality?
Secondly, is this a fair price?

I have absolutely no idea when it comes to the technical side of solar, I just know that I need to try and reduce my bills. We currently average bills with between 35 - 40kWh average usage per day.

Cheers,
Matty

I know I'm dominating this thread a little this morning but still haha

As for Energy Matters, as a company they're certainly well-placed. I applied for a few jobs there before, and unless you know someone in the HR department or have a degree, you couldn't get a job there. That said, the founding directors are extremely environmental people with the most inquisitive minds and extremely useful people to know.

REC solar panels, which is their flagship module, is the only PV module in the world which has its manufacturing line entirely carbon neutral, and that's why they choose to sell it, because they're not here just to make money off rebates, they're actually here to help out the environment and be ethical about it.

It is a shame that they hire some pretty hopeless people, but I also blame their quoting system; it's all automated, and the consultants on the other end don't receive proper training on how to use it.

When installations take months at a time, it's quite commonly happened to a few people who bought systems, and sometimes it has been inevitable. In Perth, I had a few customers waiting for a few months because our supplier told us the panels were at the wharf, only to find out 6 weeks later that they just left the factory. No fault of ours, but surely enough I had to put out the fires because of what had happened.

It's a hard industry I'll tell everyone, a complicated, uneducated, and often disorganised industry...

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

When customers say to me that it's not worth it because the payback period is too long, I say to them: Name 6 investments you can make in your life where the investment will pay for itself. If any one on this thread can name 6 items that pay for themselves, I will personally give you a bottle of wine

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

just for fun, see if you can name 6 things to buy that pay for themselves!

1. university degree with a professional accreditation (doctor,lawyer.vet)
2. good food/diet saves on med bills
3.champix saves on ciggies
4. property- it never goes down always up
5. a good wife works for nothing
6. An ABN pays for itself...10% discount on everything



they all cost money and are an investment



I prefer single malt scotch.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by z80

1. university degree with a professional accreditation (doctor,lawyer.vet)
2. good food/diet saves on med bills
3.champix saves on ciggies
4. property- it never goes down always up
5. a good wife works for nothing
6. An ABN pays for itself...10% discount on everything



they all cost money and are an investment



I prefer single malt scotch.

You just don't ever want to buy solar hot water do you?

[poppa smurf]

dominate away....information is good.....I found our installers very good but they found EM solar buggers to deal with, I can't repeat what they stated because I haven't the paperwork to back it up

I do have the paper trail that gave me the headaches and i can prove all my statements

the REC panel is well recognised as being second best in the industry (quoted from a high ranking solar magazine) and I think the sunny boy inverters are as good as any.....no complaints about the system, although it has yet to reach it's spruked 3.5 kilowatt

the company MAY be good but the sales personnel (once payment has been made) are nothing short of woeful

the wireless monitor from sunny boy is quoted as being a $500 extra (damned if I know where they get that figure from) but I was given that for my "inconvenience"

times in any sales industry are tough, I know because I'm in it,....tool sharpener/ saw doctor.....I am losing business to the chinese imports but also a lot of businesses are their own worst enemy

for instance....I have four ceiling fans which I want put in place....electrician wants $200 per fan to install????? $800 for probably 2 hours work!

when questioned on this he replied "because we got to put stringers in".....c'mon I can lift a sheet of iron from the roof and put those in around ten minutes and he wants $200 each!!!

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by ute83

Try Solar Dynamics, They have advertised down here 5 kw for $ 10200

Cheers,
contacted them last night via their website and I got a call at lunchtime today with a booking for someone to come out Monday to assess and quote.
Good service so far........................hope they keep it up

Cheers,
Matt

[SB076]

I have an Energy Matters system and the installers were excellent - but yes their office/admin staff can cause you headaches. I suggest a mate get in contact with them - he did they they didnt get back to him - so he ended up going with someone else.

I asked them (via email and phone) to provide a quote to see if it was worthwihle updating my system - they are obviously busy because I didnt get a response to either.

But the systems they provide are great and I am sure they will be around for awhile (cant say the same about some of these other companies that have popped up)

[poppa smurf]

let us know how you get on Matt.......good luck!

[Stagg]

When I moved from WA to VIC I had sold a system to some of my partners parents family friends, because I sold a few systems to them and they were all happy that I was there on site during the install to make sure that they had everything etc...

Anyway just before I moved, their panels arrived in the warehouse, and I labelled them and took down the serial numbers, and sent a photo to the family friend who was buying them, so she knew that it wouldn't take very long.

So after I moved, I told the installer which panels are going where, and he booked them in. When I went back to visit Perth in December, I asked them how the system was going. They said that they went somewhere else, and I thought... what? didn't you get the picture I sent of your panels? she said she had, and what happened was:

"You were fine, the panels arrived into the warehouse when you said they would, but after you and Hannah moved we didn't hear back from your boss, so we called him and he said that there were no panels in stock, even though you sent me the picture of our panels. The installer then came out and tried to sell us a larger system or increase the installation price for the same sized system that we were going to go for".

So understandably, I did the right thing, and after I left they got screwed over. It left me pretty red-faced...

Sometimes it seems like it's up to the individual rather than the business, for example I always give my mobile number to my customers so that in case they can't reach me or if they were told something else, they can always contact me directly. Customer service and ethical salesman still exist

I had a friend in Perth who started working as an admin girl at Modern solar a little while ago and I slapped my head (if you know how the modern group works), and she didn't understand why until she got laid off because she was one of the less professional sounding girls

[xisled]

Currently in NSW the gov has reduced the buy back to $0.00, for new customers getting solar. So if you produce extra solar there is no buy back.

Also if you currently have solar and change retailers you can lose your buy back. The tariff is called GENR and is a $0.00 buy back rate.

[poppa smurf]

I have made approaches to Origin energy as well as AGL about switching suppliers and both state because I signed up before the september deadline and have the corresponding PVSEG no's I am eligible for the infeed tariff from both companies, if however I sell the house and a new owner takes over the solar the tariff does not pass to him, he gets the "standard rate" whatever that is

that is how I was able to have the infeed tariff increased by Lumo....by threatening to change suppliers

even if there were no infeed tariff I would still go solar because I would be paying electricity charges anyway so why not invest that money in solar

pay that off at the same rate as the power cost and in a few years the solar would be paid off and no more electricity charges

makes sense to me given that electricity is set to double within the next few years

[xtremerus]

Slightly off topic, BUT.

Why don't we use the same scheme as the solar one to boost the local car industry?

Buy a local Ford/Holden/Toyota.
The Govt. will pay you $5.00/L for every litre you put in the tank, for say, 10 years.
Increase the price on non-australian cars, and the price of fuel, by 20% every year.
The investment ideas are the same.

[poppa smurf]

rising price of fuel is already happening.....does so every year

vehicle subsidies are already out there

fuel giveaway is very common throughout the car sales industry

prices have been increased on non australian cars through taxation

so I really don't see your point nor the validity of your statements in relation to solar

it is inevitable that solar will become more predominant as the overseas conglomerates that own the power generators gouge out as much profit as they can before they are forced to clean up their act.......

at which case the generators will be sold to another company

very different scenario to spruke "clean and green" as the government did than to give the vehicle industry more money to pollute with very little incentive to "green up the cars"

we have just handed over another 200 million to Holden on top of the lot we gave them a few years back to stay open if thats not handing out money for Jam I don't know what is

[Stagg]

I'm sure a lot of you know that electric cars are on their way, I think that once the solar industry has calmed down, there is going to be a lot of electric car dealers come out of the blue, but this is really the car that sold me on going electric in the future:





http://webarchive.teslamotors.com/models/index.php

300 mile range, o-60mph in 5.6 seconds, 45 second quick charge, and seats seven people... What Tesla has there is the key for the transition from standard petrol powered cars to PRACTICAL electric cars.

I'm all for it when it gets here and no one is going to be able to convince me otherwise

[poppa smurf]

too expensive for me!

[Matty4]

OK......I have a dilemma..
I'm trying to convince my wife that investing this money into a solar setup and the cost benefits of it are a good idea. All she sees is the upfront cost and nothing more.
I need an agrument that will allow me to explain to her in very simple terms how the ROI works, the upfront cost is recovered over X number of years and that we will be better off investing this money now in solar rather than using to pay power bills for next few years.

I've done some basic sums but I need that little bit extra in the selling of it.

Cheers,
Matty

[Stagg]

Well just show her the savings figures:

Upfront cost is $10k for arguments sake.

Saves you $2000 per year.

In five years, you are now not paying anything for your electricity.

System will last for minimum ten years. Will save an additional $10k in the life of the system, although that would not be factoring in the cost of rising electricity prices and the carbon tax.

If your system saved $2000 this year, when power is going to increase 100% over the next twelve months, then every year after the first, it saves you $4000.

[poppa smurf]

how much is your current monthly power bill?

how big a system do you need to cover it

how much is that system

if you take the interest free option do the repayments equal your monthly power bill .....if so .....where is your loss?

the solar will be paid for in 3 years, whereas your power bill will continue and increase

the solar will continue "paying for itself" over the next 25 years, albeit in a diminishing amount

I can't see where there is any doubt that solar can be nothing but a huge benefit to the owner and the community.....my array covers my neighbours power needs as well as mine

[Scott]

An issue I have with it is how much power we use through the day. I work from home, my wife has been off work for two years and will likely be off for another five [stay at home mum] so she is at home all day too.

When we'd be earning the better rates (I simply don't trust the Govco to maintain the rebates mind you) we'd be sucking all that expensive power straight up. We have a tenanted unit under our main house and IIRC, we go about 55kw per day on average.

If I spent $21500 on having a 5kw system installed, that produced 21kw per day, at 44c per kw I have the ability to earn $9.24 per day assuming we didn't use ANY power throughout the productive time. I would still obviously use power in the later afternoon and evening and I would guess that to be about 60% of our usage.

So, I can earn $9.24/day (@44c), and if we only used power late arvo/evening we would still outlay $6.60/day (60% of 55kw x 20c).

Balance - +$2.64/day and zero consumption in daylight hours. On todays figures, for $1000 a year I would prefer to be able to keep the fridge on!

I am of the mindset that we would make a far more dramatic change to our bills by really concentrating on being frugal and cycling equipment through to less consumptive types or use.

I'd be really happy to hear if I have the complete wrong end of this or if there is a much smarter way. We're on a single income, wrapping up tens of thousands of dollars in a longer term deal is not so attractive as making sure the funds are available to survive until my wife goes back to work.

I guess I also play the "there must be a better way, if not now, just around the corner".

Cheers,

Scott

[Tribal]

Sorry if its been answered already - but for those who are on Solar - what happens when there is a power outage? Does your system keep you self sufficient or are you still at the mercy of the energy providers?

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Tribal

Sorry if its been answered already - but for those who are on Solar - what happens when there is a power outage? Does your system keep you self sufficient or are you still at the mercy of the energy providers?

If it's during the day you will still have power from the system, if you use more than what is being produced than the system trips out.

If it's at night then your still at the mercy of power companies, yes.

[poppa smurf]

it's not up to me to tell you how to live your life but you are going to be paying that amount forever and with an increase just around the corner for power bills it can only rise

could you not look at reducing or even halving your bill with solar?.....even that will more than pay for itself in the short term and won't be that expensive

in my case, and thats all I can really comment on, we produce twice as much power as we use daily so even without the feed in tariff we don't have a power bill

we don't live frugally, in fact we are very wasteful in the power department, if I get to the stage of using more power than we generate then i will have saved more than enough from no power bills to extend my array

the decision is yours to make.....

[Scott]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

could you not look at reducing or even halving your bill with solar?....

Yes. However based on the scenario above, if I was a super good boy and "turned the house OFF" during production hours, it would take 22 years to pay for itself on the assumption I paid cash [ie, no interest costs], the rebate did not reduce or cease and power prices did not rise.

It's obvious that power prices will rise but I have yet to do a really comprehensive set of numbers and scenarios.

On the basic and probably "half truth", 22 years seems extraordinary.

[Matty4]

I've had a bit more of a think about the numbers and came to the conclusion that if we took that money and invested it into a term deposit at current rates of 5% we would have earned ~$4500 in interest (less tax) over a 6 year period.

We currently see bills from $650-700 per qt and I'm looking at a 5kw system. If I could knock $500 per qt off that bill it will pay for itself in ~6.5years, effectively giving me a return on my investment of close enough to 17%!!!
Where else would you get that? And still have it earn more in the long term?

She's been convinced!!

[poppa smurf]

yep! you've got to really be honest and forget the bull dust......do your figures CORRECTLY and honestly and I think most will see that solar makes a lot of sense

there are no "half truths" or falsities, simply facts, follow them truthfully and make a decision based on that....if you want exact figures from my array I can supply almost 5 months of comprehensive data..

I've kept a daily log of the output and I have the hourly stats

there are those that can't be convinced and that solar will never pay for itself but look thats fine......I KNOW different

I don't think one could simply make the statement that "solar will never pay for itself"......I know it to be false and can easily prove it

anyone can do it themselves using HONEST figures

but it is your decision.....go solar....don't go solar!.........I derive no benefit either way!

Matty that time frame seems to be around the average and makes a lot of sense, that system could easily be expanded in later years.....

mine will pay for itself in roughly 5 years some take 10 but what must be remembered is the reduction or even annihilation of the power bill.....gotta be happy with that

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by Tribal

Sorry if its been answered already - but for those who are on Solar - what happens when there is a power outage? Does your system keep you self sufficient or are you still at the mercy of the energy providers?

You are still at the mercy of the power providers.
Unless you have a stand alone system with batteries, your power goes off with everyone else in a blackout.

[xisled]

With the new rebates and the cost of the system IMO it is not worth getting solar any longer.

[z80]

Originally Posted by Scott

An issue I have with it is how much power we use through the day. I work from home, my wife has been off work for two years and will likely be off for another five [stay at home mum] so she is at home all day too.

When we'd be earning the better rates (I simply don't trust the Govco to maintain the rebates mind you) we'd be sucking all that expensive power straight up. We have a tenanted unit under our main house and IIRC, we go about 55kw per day on average.

If I spent $21500 on having a 5kw system installed, that produced 21kw per day, at 44c per kw I have the ability to earn $9.24 per day assuming we didn't use ANY power throughout the productive time. I would still obviously use power in the later afternoon and evening and I would guess that to be about 60% of our usage.

So, I can earn $9.24/day (@44c), and if we only used power late arvo/evening we would still outlay $6.60/day (60% of 55kw x 20c).

Balance - +$2.64/day and zero consumption in daylight hours. On todays figures, for $1000 a year I would prefer to be able to keep the fridge on!

I am of the mindset that we would make a far more dramatic change to our bills by really concentrating on being frugal and cycling equipment through to less consumptive types or use.

I'd be really happy to hear if I have the complete wrong end of this or if there is a much smarter way. We're on a single income, wrapping up tens of thousands of dollars in a longer term deal is not so attractive as making sure the funds are available to survive until my wife goes back to work.

I guess I also play the "there must be a better way, if not now, just around the corner".

Cheers,

Scott

If I told you how to pay it off in 5 years without even unpacking the boxes of panels would you do it?

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

If it's during the day you will still have power from the system, if you use more than what is being produced than the system trips out.

If it's at night then your still at the mercy of power companies, yes.

Eeek....if the power goes off in the street it is a legal requirement that your system switches off whithin a second....day or night.

This is called "anti-islanding" and is a design feature of all compliant inverters to stop you from electrocuting the linesman who is repairing in the street, who thinks he has all the power off but you would be feeding it back at him.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Tribal

Sorry if its been answered already - but for those who are on Solar - what happens when there is a power outage? Does your system keep you self sufficient or are you still at the mercy of the energy providers?

my inverter needs power from the grid to "energise" the system......a small amount of power is sent into the inverter to initialise it so if the grid power fails it will not energise and does not send any power out

so no it will not be any good during a power outage


just to answer a couple of questions that have been raised with false content

the average usable amount of sunlight to fall on the mid section of Australia is around 6 hours.....thereby any system that is facing north, unshaded and angled correctly will receive that amount

thereby a 5 kilowatt system averaging 6 hours per day will produce 30 kilowatts on average per day

30 kilowatts X .44c = $13.20....per day

a 5 kilowatt system can cost as little as $8,799 from http://solardelight.com.au/system_pa...s_tn_494kw.php

given that is $369.60 per month production the system will be paid off within a couple of years, how is that a bad thing

also it must be remembered that the power bill will be severely reduced!

these facts were found after a couple of minutes of searching on the net, I don't know anything about the company but their are heaps of companies out there

I don't know what subsidies are available or rebates that are applicable, but a little research can find that out!

but just do your homework before making your mind up!.....as I say HONEST figures

[z80]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

my inverter needs power from the grid to "energise" the system......a small amount of power is sent into the inverter to initialise it so if the grid power fails it will not energise and does not send any power out

so no it will not be any good during a power outage

Your inverter consumes power just like any other appliance until it locks onto the 50hz frequency and can produce a higher voltage than the power coming in from the street. Grid feeding can only occur if the inverter voltage exceeds the grid voltage.
Whithin about 2 cycles per second your inverter will stay powered up if your panels are producing power...just that the inverter will stop grid feeding on it's output circuits.

(it will wait until the grid comes back up)

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

just to answer a couple of questions that have been raised with false content

the average usable amount of sunlight to fall on the mid section of Australia is around 6 hours.....thereby any system that is facing north, unshaded and angled correctly will receive that amount

thereby a 5 kilowatt system averaging 6 hours per day will produce 30 kilowatts on average per day

The standard multiplier is 4.

5kw system is good for 20kw a day average, in most states with exceptions.

You will not get 30kw average all year round in any location in australia per day.

But you might average 365*20kw per year.