The Australian Welfare System

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by blueoval

I own my own business, does that count?

Do you claim internet connection/electrical or anything related come tax time....then if so yes that does count.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

Do you claim internet connection/electrical or anything related come tax time....then if so yes that does count.

no. I work from home and dont want to claim it on the house due to capital gains disadvantages later on.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by blueoval

no. I work from home and dont want to claim it on the house due to capital gains disadvantages later on.

So you claim zero/zilch what so ever, never claimed any out of pocket expenses what so ever ?.

Do you provide a service to others albeit major companies or smaller private ones while searching AFF during the day, if so you are still doing them an unjust.

Don’t get me wrong I am not having a dig at you but this thread is clearly a hit at the welfare and hey I’m dead set against the cheats as well and would like to see changes but we need to not throw stones in glass houses when there is a good chance that a fair few people replying here or viewing did so on work time using work property. I am sure there are quite a few that do so every day.

So clearly we can not single out those when some are being hypocritical in their own actions to their employer, whether it be a direct one or clientele.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

I’d like to know how many of us that have not only replied in this thread today but looked in it , did so durring work hours and on work premisses/time ?.

How is this comment relevant to the topic being discussed?
Are you trying to prove that even employed people are bludgers willing to sponge off of their employer?

All I know that there are whole suburbs of unemployable people. They, through choice or circumstances have very little to offer an employer, and frankly don't have a clue.
Middle class welfare does concern me, I remember as a married father of 1 child, my wife and I would get upto $120 per FN because we had a child. We also had 2 incomes leaving me to wonder why we were entitled to that payment.
Welfare should be simplified

Disabiity
Aged
Parenting (means tested and time limited)
Unemployment (means tested-got money in the bank? got a payout? tough and time limited.)

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Unemployed and in need of help.

JP

That label's not derogatory enough, im sure the term 'unemployable' would be a better description.
Unemployable as in, you weren't good enough to get one of the available jobs, there must be something wrong with you.

Unfortunately the current mob have made Unemployed bashing trendy and has become an avenue for the masses to vent.

[castellan]

What does it cost keeping all the people in Jail ?

I don't want to pay for them lot at all.
If they destroy others stuff they should pay everything they wilfully destroyed.

Not to mention red carpet treatment for non citizens, we could find a job for them to pay for the trip back home.

There use to be a sign up once that you seen, and it said fork it or walk it, no one rides for free.
I have not seen them signs around for about 25 years now.

[damo76]

For the last year i have only been able to find bits and pieces of work around, nothing full-time, so i have needed newstart allowance for when i'm not working. You guys that think you have a good cruisy life on the dole have got it wrong. Try bring up a family pay mortgage ect on $250 a week, it's nothing to get excited about it's not even enough to go out for night on the town lol.
Not all people are dole bludgers, you want to get picky what about sick people with illnesses, that is a even bigger strain on the economy. But we must think ourselves lucky as a lot of other countries don't have a helpfull government.

ps nothing towards people with illnessess, just saying.

[Franco Cozzo]

The figure break down is about 7% or something around there of the total welfare cost for people on the dole and DSP, the two major ones are elderly people (pensions, fair enough) but the second one on the list is families with children.

Everyone wants to take a cheap shot on someone down on their luck, because they're easy targets.

Want to stomp on someone getting $250/week but its alright for multinational companies to tax evade like mofos, even in the other thread about paperwork people were idolising Kerry Packer and quoting his famous tax line.

Who is worse? The dude getting $250/week or the job service places BSing on forms, cutting and pasting, forging forms, making people look like they're in work to get heaps of money from the government and they just shuffle unemployed people around everywhere like a commodity, using them to get money out of the government for providing a service they're not.

Hume City Council region in Melbourne has a 27% unemployment rate for people actively looking for work. That doesn't include the people who aren't looking. Its so bad there the council is actively promoting trying to bring business into the region by providing incentives to take on Hume City Council residents and are also running programs for business to locate new employees for them with suitable skills.

Broadmeadows is part of Hume, how many people who work at Ford who live in Broadmeadows region are going to inflate that figure even further come next year?

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

How is this comment relevant to the topic being discussed?
Are you trying to prove that even employed people are bludgers willing to sponge off of their employer?

All I know that there are whole suburbs of unemployable people. They, through choice or circumstances have very little to offer an employer, and frankly don't have a clue.
Middle class welfare does concern me, I remember as a married father of 1 child, my wife and I would get upto $120 per FN because we had a child. We also had 2 incomes leaving me to wonder why we were entitled to that payment.
Welfare should be simplified

Disabiity
Aged
Parenting (means tested and time limited)
Unemployment (means tested-got money in the bank? got a payout? tough and time limited.)

If you can’t read between the lines and see where I was going with it with my previous posts above then I am not going to entertain you by explaining it any simpler then I already have.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Who is worse? The dude getting $250/week or the job service places BSing on forms, cutting and pasting, forging forms, making people look like they're in work to get heaps of money from the government and they just shuffle unemployed people around everywhere like a commodity, using them to get money out of the government for providing a service they're not.

Well you cant wheel out the faithful old line about alcohol, drugs and cigarettes when discussing the job service providers shortcomings so that's never going to cut it in the current climate.

Truth is, those Job Service providers would be in the same dole queue if they weren't given jobs of finding jobs for others.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Well you cant wheel out the faithful old line about alcohol, drugs and cigarettes when discussing the job service providers shortcomings so that's never going to cut it in the current climate.

Truth is, those Job Service providers would be in the same dole queue if they weren't given jobs of finding jobs for others.

The alcoholics and drug abusers are the ones who get most of the $$$ for training if the job service place actually does something as they're stream 3.

If you're skilled (even if you have no qualifications) and you come out of work, the only thing the job service place can do for you is make you come in and sign forms and make you leave because you're only stream 1, the government won't allocate them resources to actually look for a job for you until you move up to the next stream, which is medium-long term unemployment and even then the only thing you MIGHT get is funding for a construction white card, its not like they're going to shell out $5000 for you to go to TAFE to do a course.

Even if by some chance you manage to move up the streams, and they can start helping you look for work, most places who advertise on seek have a "no agencies" clause at the bottom of their ad anyway.

The system is rooted, one of my acquaintences from high school who has never worked legitimately in his life and has dabbled in drugs for the last 6 years got a Cert III in Warehousing, forklift license and a white card for free on behalf of tax payers and he doesn't even want to work.

Unless the Government specifically creates a program for manufacturing workers to get resources above everyone else, they're just going to be going in and out of job services signing forms being told there is no resources for them to help look for work or assist with training until enough time passes for them to climb the ranks in the next few levels of streams.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

So you claim zero/zilch what so ever, never claimed any out of pocket expenses what so ever ?.

Do you provide a service to others albeit major companies or smaller private ones while searching AFF during the day, if so you are still doing them an unjust.

Don’t get me wrong I am not having a dig at you but this thread is clearly a hit at the welfare and hey I’m dead set against the cheats as well and would like to see changes but we need to not throw stones in glass houses when there is a good chance that a fair few people replying here or viewing did so on work time using work property. I am sure there are quite a few that do so every day.

So clearly we can not single out those when some are being hypocritical in their own actions to their employer, whether it be a direct one or clientele.

I never claimed to be a saint or be perfect, just wanted to know if you consider being self employed under the same umbrella as regular employees.

Are you without fault?

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by blueoval

I never claimed to be a saint or be perfect, just wanted to know if you consider being self employed under the same umbrella as regular employees.

Are you without fault?

I think I answered your question quite clearly, whether your self employed or regular employed it matter’s less, if you spend time doing unrelated or direct time to that of your actual employment contract during said hours then how is it different to “abusing the system” just on a different nature.

Welfare or employed none of us are saints and I don’t believe I ever claimed to be one ?, did I ?.

I just think people need to look at their own doings before they make claim to others, don’t you ?.

[Polyal]

Because you cant check AFF in your break? Some cant I guess..no need to get narky at those who can.

Effeciency is the key there...which is way OT. How they hell did this get to three pages. Ah thats right 50% of it is OT.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The alcoholics and drug abusers are the ones who get most of the $$$ for training if the job service place actually does something as they're stream 3.

If you're skilled (even if you have no qualifications) and you come out of work, the only thing the job service place can do for you is make you come in and sign forms and make you leave because you're only stream 1, the government won't allocate them resources to actually look for a job for you until you move up to the next stream, which is medium-long term unemployment and even then the only thing you MIGHT get is funding for a construction white card, its not like they're going to shell out $5000 for you to go to TAFE to do a course.

Even if by some chance you manage to move up the streams, and they can start helping you look for work, most places who advertise on seek have a "no agencies" clause at the bottom of their ad anyway.

The system is rooted, one of my acquaintences from high school who has never worked legitimately in his life and has dabbled in drugs for the last 6 years got a Cert III in Warehousing, forklift license and a white card for free on behalf of tax payers and he doesn't even want to work.

Unless the Government specifically creates a program for manufacturing workers to get resources above everyone else, they're just going to be going in and out of job services signing forms being told there is no resources for them to help look for work or assist with training until enough time passes for them to climb the ranks in the next few levels of streams.

There IS a future for this country!
Young guys like you Damo.... Common sense AND being involved in politics (as you are!, regardless of "sides") DOING something positive truly make me believe there's some hope! Well spoken mate!

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Hume City Council region in Melbourne has a 27% unemployment rate for people actively looking for work. That doesn't include the people who aren't looking. Its so bad there the council is actively promoting trying to bring business into the region by providing incentives to take on Hume City Council residents and are also running programs for business to locate new employees for them with suitable skills.

Broadmeadows is part of Hume, how many people who work at Ford who live in Broadmeadows region are going to inflate that figure even further come next year?

Going to be worse in Elizabeth when GMH goes under, its already bad enough now.
Businesses are closing down everywhere, commercial property is just sitting idle.

I read a bit on Adelaide Now last night, one of the commenters said he had a farm and could only get backpackers to work there.
I tried one of those avenues as I can be in the river land in around an hour from home, when I told the bloke running the show that I wouldn't need his overpriced accommodation he said the job wouldn't suit me.
See, these fruit places thrive on getting their money back via the accommodation they provide, that's why they target back packers as they just need somewhere to stay and a stamp for their Visa's.
It suits both parties, but ol' mate in the comments section didn't let the truth get in the way of his story.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Because you cant check AFF in your break? Some cant I guess..no need to get narky at those who can.

Effeciency is the key there...which is way OT. How they hell did this get to three pages. Ah thats right 50% of it is OT.

I’m not getting narky if that is directed at me ?.

I’m clearly saying that some will and do abuse their employers time ?, hey what you do in your time whether it be work or not I couldn’t give a rats, (your employer might But I don’t) but people please read what I am saying, no body is a saint and they shouldn’t be judging the welfare system with out looking at their own actions 1st..

And well yeah your little response has added to the 50% OT that your vocal about, you just added to the cause.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The alcoholics and drug abusers are the ones who get most of the $$$ for training if the job service place actually does something as they're stream 3.

If you're skilled (even if you have no qualifications) and you come out of work, the only thing the job service place can do for you is make you come in and sign forms and make you leave because you're only stream 1, the government won't allocate them resources to actually look for a job for you until you move up to the next stream, which is medium-long term unemployment and even then the only thing you MIGHT get is funding for a construction white card, its not like they're going to shell out $5000 for you to go to TAFE to do a course.

Even if by some chance you manage to move up the streams, and they can start helping you look for work, most places who advertise on seek have a "no agencies" clause at the bottom of their ad anyway.

The system is rooted, one of my acquaintences from high school who has never worked legitimately in his life and has dabbled in drugs for the last 6 years got a Cert III in Warehousing, forklift license and a white card for free on behalf of tax payers and he doesn't even want to work.

Unless the Government specifically creates a program for manufacturing workers to get resources above everyone else, they're just going to be going in and out of job services signing forms being told there is no resources for them to help look for work or assist with training until enough time passes for them to climb the ranks in the next few levels of streams.

Nah, they just tell you how to answer the initial questions in a way that gets you straight to level3.
I walked in to one straight off the job, presented my story and walked out half an hour later as a hopeless case with nothing to offer apparently, but I made it to level3 so everyone seemed ecstatic with their efforts.
I didn't even pick up a pen, they just filled it in.
Then they landed me a '$1100pw job' with a civil construction company (ADCIV) that went belly up a month later.
Rinse and repeat.

[Trevor 57]

Some people are very critical of Australia's welfare system until the day the NEED it (and politicians (past and present) are unlikely to ever NEED it)- that is all

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

I’m not getting narky if that is directed at me ?.

I’m clearly saying that some will and do abuse their employers time ?, hey what you do in your time whether it be work or not I couldn’t give a rats, (your employer might But I don’t) but people please read what I am saying, no body is a saint and they shouldn’t be judging the welfare system with out looking at their own actions 1st..

And well yeah your little response has added to the 50% OT that your vocal about, you just added to the cause.

I get what your saying but I find it hard to agree that we cant be critical on others on welfare who are more than able to get a job but dont. I think thats a far bigger burden to society than employed people flicking tabs on their browser when the boss comes in.

I for one certainly get all my work done and then some while obviously having a high post count.

Disclaimer: was at uni for most of that time since joining

There are many problems with the system but they are also greater than our community aswell.

The explosion of mental illness is one thats very hard to actually quantify yet is used regularly in getting welfare, physical disability has been rorted for years, systems in place for people who have a disability but can work are non existent (there are plenty of jobs that dont require fully able people taken by able people), what happened to all the trade schools?, alot of these kids need to be shown the defense force if jobs are so hard to come by (been on welfare for 12 months+ and your not upskilling?..well say hello to the army and help the country recover from some natural disaster).

Gets some skills, get the hell out of the suburb you have been living in because no doubt its just going to be a cycle if you stay and get out there. Life is to cushy for most young people who are "trapped".

As for this stupid poll perhaps look at it from a % of the expenditure and then compare it to similar nations...the raw figure means little.

[superyob]

How did people survive before the introduction of the welfare system?

[Polyal]

They created tribes and raided towns?

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by superyob

How did people survive before the introduction of the welfare system?

Start a war or be a man of the land.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Some people are very critical of Australia's welfare system until the day the NEED it (and politicians (past and present) are unlikely to ever NEED it)- that is all

Except it has become a defacto lifestyle for many people. Remove any welfare and vast numbers of welfare dependants have the power to vote governments out/in. Whilst increasing welfare gets their votes.

It is unsustainable, based on the current tragectory there will be less and less welfare in the years to come, enjoy it whilst you can.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by superyob

How did people survive before the introduction of the welfare system?

D'oh! Let me rephrase that. How did the unemployed survive before the introduction of the welfare system?

[Syndrome]

Give people jobs, not handouts.

[Polyal]

That in itself is not quite right...you dont give jobs, people need to earn it, but the Gov definitely is not doing anything at the moment to promote jobs.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

I think I answered your question quite clearly, whether your self employed or regular employed it matter’s less, if you spend time doing unrelated or direct time to that of your actual employment contract during said hours then how is it different to “abusing the system” just on a different nature.

Welfare or employed none of us are saints and I don’t believe I ever claimed to be one ?, did I ?.

I just think people need to look at their own doings before they make claim to others, don’t you ?.

Whose judging here? It's clear your judging me on my work situation when you have no clue what I do.

If you must know I get fixed rate per job and that job needs to get done within a certain amount of time and it gets done. Every body is happy. If I happen to make time to fit some forum time in, I'm now being dishonest to my clients, How? How would you know what my contract entails exactly? fyi, I have a very open and understanding contract with a number of my clients.

Going by your logic, I shouldn't be able to go to the toilet, grab a drink or scratch my crack without them knowing in case Im being dishonest. My work does not revolve around that way. It would if I actually worked for a boss, but I don't. I am the boss.

There is a difference here between working within the allocated means of a contract arrangement and abusing the system which I have seen people blatantly do under the nose of their bosses on their time. I have purely stated what I have seen and based on my experience.

I agree people need to look at their own doings, but every situation is different and unless you know the FACTS around everybody's employment situation, who are you to assume they are abusing the system?

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by cheap

Really, the rich pay little or no tax?

Can you provide evidence, every member here would dearly love to know how to pay little or no tax.

Another 30 seconds added to the welfare cost...

Yes that is correct. I personally know 2 multi millionaires that pay maybe $1000 in tax a year. They have multiple residential properties, commercial properties, and business interests.

Its quite easy to do. However you need to be able to make the money in the first place (a big profit,) which is the hard part, then offset it with expences, that will generate another big income. Annnnnnd, rinse and repeat. So thats what they do. Its self perpetuating. But here is the thing, you must be a business. Tax is setup to favor big business, it pains you as an individual. However, when your in business, tax becomes a beautiful thing. You start acquiring assets effectively for free.

One of these multimillionaires is a previous employer of mine, he took a couple of us under his wing an taught us a few things, one is how normal people think, and how rich people think. And the mindset is completely different. They dont look at cars as desirable objects. Its considered a liability. There are two types of possessions:

Asset: An asset is an object, house, business, etc, is something that returns money on a regular basis, weekly, monthly yearly, and appreciates in value. Cash in the bank. Not just goes up in value, it gets you money. (So a GTHO PIII is NOT an asset!)

Liability: Liability is something that costs you money, your own personal home (yes you read that right) your car, phone, couch, fridge, TV, dog, pretty much everything. Except if its earning you money.

The other thing he taught me is:

"Your first million is the hardest, but once you crack it, it they roll in"

The other factor is to make your financial liabilities not your problem, but the banks problem no, were are not talking about a 1m loan, we are talking at least $10m, 20, 30 or $100m + of mortgages. How do you think that Donald Trump came back from being hundreds of million dollars in debt, to being a multi billionare? The banks werent prepared to lose all that money. They lent him more. A bank can take a 1m hit, but when we start talking 20m they get jittery and start thinking, "well, how do we get some money back". Its no longer your problem but theirs.

Unfortunately this is beyond most peoples thinking, and hence why most people pay tax and the rich don't. You may think this is unfair, however, its thought that its more important to keep big businesses employing people rather than taxing the hell out of them, to do what with that money? Hand it out to people? And what would they do with it? Buy liabilities, and increase their debt.....

While you may think well "<insert name here> has a private plane, TAX HIM!" Why? he needs that plane, for business, employing people, yes he uses it for himself. What do you need a plane for? Can you park it in the driveway? I rather doubt it.

I recommend the book 'Rich dad, Poor dad" by Robert Kiyosaki. You can pick it up on ebay really cheap, it was number 1 on the NYT bestsellers, and his follow up book, were on the list at the same time. Everyone needs to read it. It explains in more detail what Ive only just brushed the surface on.

[Polyal]

There is a balance Revolver, I agree with most of what you say but the whole negative gearing thing needs revision...its the biggest thing tricking this country into thinking its wealthy.