Focus to be built here from 2011...

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I'd just love to know what's so poorly made about the Falcon? I don't see how cars that do 500,000km between engine reconditions are "poorly made?"

Statistics like this Steffo:

Originally Posted by Drive/AC Neilsen

The Australian New Car Buyer Survey, carried out on behalf of the industry by respected researcher ACNielsen, shows that the locally designed and built Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon have more faults in the first five months of ownership than their competitors in the large-car class, the Japanese-built Nissan Maxima and the Korean-built Hyundai Grandeur.

http://blogs.drive.com.au/2007/05/au...y_secrets.html

[Dave_au]

Oh and the most recent:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...006010,00.html

[Steffo]

Thankfully the real world isn't based solely off statistics.

Statistics can be made to show anything you want. They also fail to explain why in real life, in the industry I have a great deal of involvement in, Falcon is the vehicle of choice, where a few "statistically superior," models fail.

I'll judge cars based on real life experiences thanks. Anyone can make a survey to show anything they want it to...

[XR8-260]

Originally Posted by ClevlndStemer

own one and you will see. it isn't just the engine, its the whole car, the imperfections in the gaps between the panels, the lack of paint under doors and many other areas, the interior fit and finish, etc.

We've owned a few and I would have to agree to you. Handbrake, power steering hose issues, diff problems, interior fit and finish, gearbox which takes forever to engage reverse etc. Don't get me wrong, I still love the falcon but it does have some build quaility issues (only the one-eyed will fail to see this). We also have three mercedes benzs and hardly anything has gone wrong with them.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Thankfully the real world isn't based solely off statistics.

Here here

In fact these thing are not even statistics, they are statistics about opinions.

The only stat worth quoting is $ as a percentage of Purchase price spent rectifying problems.
Couple that with an undeterminable % of real world depreciation (decrease in resale value) an you cann start to determine the quality of a car.

I say undeterminable because of strange market factors coming into play (fashion, economy, V8 Supercar wins etc).

I take the Cabbies vote ... Live in the car, and vote with your $.

EgoFG

[colossus]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I'll judge cars based on real life experiences thanks. Anyone can make a survey to show anything they want it to...

Bwhahahahahah - says the guy that has never owned a B series Falcon!

Try living with one - I've had 4 B series including my current GT (which I still love) - previous 3 were sixes and were poor quality. Squeeling brakes, shudder, driveline vibration, engine stalls randomly, rough idling, constant broken window rubbers, water in boot - these are just a few off the top of my head. Do a search of the forum, you will find entire threads 100's of posts long about all this stuff, it is quite common.

Your examples of AU taxi's are not valid - taxi's have massive maintenance cycles that do not compare with regualar cars.

Good luck to the Focus, Ford better improve the dodgy quality and dealer service if it wants to be successful at an Aussie built small car, otherwise Corolla and Mazda 3 will continue to roll straight over the top of them.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Thankfully the real world isn't based solely off statistics.

Statistics can be made to show anything you want. They also fail to explain why in real life, in the industry I have a great deal of involvement in, Falcon is the vehicle of choice, where a few "statistically superior," models fail.

I'll judge cars based on real life experiences thanks. Anyone can make a survey to show anything they want it to...

Thats funny, your usually quite quick to rip out any sort of positive quality review of Volkswagen that you can find.

Of course, if the Falcon is the best quality car, we wouldn't have hundreds of warranty complaints by FFAU's membership. It's not like we've ever had members on here with lemons is it?

And of course, Falcon would be leading all Australian sales, and wouldnt be suffering the worst depreciation of all the australian large cars.

And of course, Falcon would have a higher relative proportion of private sales than fleet sales - because you know, private buyers don't want to drive a car like goes like a taxi do they?

And even if the Ford does have the best 6 cylinder engine in Australia, and the most compatible to LPG - it's not like the i6 is getting discontinued anytime soon.

But guess what, I think the LPG fumes are starting to get to you.

[FoMoKid]

Interesting past few posts...

Has anyone thought that ford would perhaps utilise better tooling and manufacturing methods to counter said quality issues? One would think that they would use the same moulds and stamps as the European plants? Which doesn't seem the case in the Sth Africa Focus. I guess we just have to wait and see, but it is all positive news...

...which is why the media has not picked up on it. News is all about the bad stuff so they can get an angry or mournful reaction, they don't want to portray happy people because happy people is just not good tv or radio and happy people do not sell newspapers. ok, end conspiracy theory...

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by colossus

Your examples of AU taxi's are not valid - taxi's have massive maintenance cycles that do not compare with regualar cars.

They're quite valid. The fact is, under the same conditions, the Toyota Camry, Toyota Avalon, Mitsubishi Magna, Mitsubishi 380 and Holden Commodore fail. The Falcon doesn't.

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Thats funny, your usually quite quick to rip out any sort of positive quality review of Volkswagen that you can find.

Of course, if the Falcon is the best quality car, we wouldn't have hundreds of warranty complaints by FFAU's membership. It's not like we've ever had members on here with lemons is it?

And of course, Falcon would be leading all Australian sales, and wouldnt be suffering the worst depreciation of all the australian large cars.

And of course, Falcon would have a higher relative proportion of private sales than fleet sales - because you know, private buyers don't want to drive a car like goes like a taxi do they?

And even if the Ford does have the best 6 cylinder engine in Australia, and the most compatible to LPG - it's not like the i6 is getting discontinued anytime soon.

But guess what, I think the LPG fumes are starting to get to you.

When you want to debate something, please don't make things up. I don't post positive-VW reviews I find on the internet, I post about positive experience in real life with VW's. There's a huge difference. We've owned a '01 Polo 1.4 16V, an 06 Golf 2.0 FSI, best friend's parents have an 06 Golf 2.0 FSI and another close family friend has an 07 Golf GTI and had an 05 Golf 2.0 FSI. All impeccable. Which is besides the point in this thread.

And I'm sure if you searched any car forum for any make, you'd have members complaining of problems with their cars. No car manufacturer is immune from it. And why do you find it more here? Because we're an Australian Ford forum, so the majority of members would of course, own Australian made Fords. So when things go wrong, they post about it here. What's your point? Most people don't post when things are going well, because most such posts are complaints and there is no need to complain about a car working properly. If they did, I wonder how different the scale would be in regards to "my car's working properly," vs "my car isn't?"

Falcon depreciation is equal to Commodore, better then Magna/380 and better then Avalon. Go to some auctions and you'll see. In fact, factory LPG Falcons are worth quite a bit at auctions, more then any other Australian large car. The petrol verisons are dead even with "Australia's favourite car," so...

The Inline-Six is being discontinued because on a global scale it does not make economic sense. You'll find that most of the best car manufacturers in the world platform share their engines. Look at VW... the same 3.2 FSI V6 can be found in the Golf, Passat, A3, A4, A6, Touareg, Cayenne. BMW... the same 3.0 Inline-Six resides in the 130i, 328i (US and Europe), 530i, X3 3.0i, X5 3.0i. Mercedes... the same 3.5 V6 in C350, E350, S350, CLK350, SL350, ML350 etc. Ford to have a bunch of six-cylinder engines all over the world that differ doesn't make sense. So they're replacing them all with the best engine in their global family, the Duratec. Which makes sense. Being made well (like the I6) does not mean its a super or more efficient design. Its called progress, nothing to do with how well made the engine is or isn't.

I don't understand your argument? What are you trying to prove? If you're trying to prove that Ford Australia makes horrible cars that no one should buy, perhaps this is the wrong forum for you? Do you yourself know what you're trying to argue?

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Fantastic news. Take that, Australian media! A week after the geelong announcement, Ford has 300 jobs already replaced. Looks like good times on the horizon.

But the jobs are not in Geelong.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

But the jobs are not in Geelong.

Really? Bugger, I thought they were. My bad. Hopefully though some of the 600 from geelong have the opportunity to take these jobs, even if it involves moving.

[metalmania]

What about the rust issues in the BAs. I thought we had gone past worrying about Ford Falcons rusting like they did in the 70's and 80's.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Falcon depreciation is equal to Commodore, better then Magna/380 and better then Avalon. Go to some auctions and you'll see.

I don't understand your argument? What are you trying to prove? If you're trying to prove that Ford Australia makes horrible cars that no one should buy, perhaps this is the wrong forum for you? Do you yourself know what you're trying to argue?

I'm trying to argue that the Ford Falcon isn't quite the god of motoring that your constantly trying to argue, and I'm sure that I would have the support of many of the members of the forum given their track record and after sales experience.

I'm also trying to argue that your "real life" experiences aren't worth your typing given your bias favouratism, and despite the many independant motoring reviews, quality reviews and depreciation rate calculations by actuaries that I and others have posted, you believe that what a few cabbies have told you and the experience of a few family friends is enough to form an opinion as to the falcon population as a whole.

In many threads you always railroad the conversation down this path of worshipping the taxi pack falcon, often making unsupported remarks.

So in interest of fact, rather than your own opinion, could you please point me to a 3 year resale value amount by an valuers site etc which places a BF falcon ahead of the Commodore, Aurion and 380.

Originally Posted by Steffo

The Inline-Six is being discontinued because on a global scale it does not make economic sense. You'll find that most of the best car manufacturers in the world platform share their engines. Look at VW... the same 3.2 FSI V6 can ......... Its called progress, nothing to do with how well made the engine is or isn't.

Ill actually agree with you this one. I thought you were one of the "i6 forever" crowd - given your argument for the quality of the car seems to lie with only the engine in your opinion.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

I'm trying to argue that the Ford Falcon isn't quite the god of motoring that your constantly trying to argue, and I'm sure that I would have the support of many of the members of the forum given their track record and after sales experience.

I'm also trying to argue that your "real life" experiences aren't worth your typing given your bias favouratism, and despite the many independant motoring reviews, quality reviews and depreciation rate calculations by actuaries that I and others have posted, you believe that what a few cabbies have told you and the experience of a few family friends is enough to form an opinion as to the falcon population as a whole.

In many threads you always railroad the conversation down this path of worshipping the taxi pack falcon, often making unsupported remarks.

So in interest of fact, rather than your own opinion, could you please point me to a 3 year resale value amount by an valuers site etc which places a BF falcon ahead of the Commodore, Aurion and 380.

My opinion isn't from "being told by a few cabbies," its from actually being involved with said vehicles for their operating lives and seeing them last through it in person.

But to appease you in regards to documented resale value...

2004 Ford Falcon BA MkII XT -
http://www.carsales.com.au/car-valua...35964&search=1
4sp Semi-Automatic Unleaded Multi-point injected 6cyl 4.0 3984cc
Average Private Price+ $14,900 - $17,800
Trade In Price Guide+ $12,000 - $13,500
Average km+ 60000 - 70000
Price When New (RRP)+ $35,175

2004 Holden Commodore VZ Executive -
http://www.carsales.com.au/car-valua...35922&search=1
4sp Automatic Unleaded Multi-point injected 6cyl 3.6 3565cc
Average Private Price+ $14,400 - $17,200
Trade In Price Guide+ $11,600 - $13,100
Average km+ 60000 - 70000
Price When New (RRP)+ $33,160

2004 Mitsubishi Magna TW ES -
http://www.carsales.com.au/car-valua...35768&search=1
4sp Semi-Automatic Unleaded Multi-point injected 6cyl 3.5 3497cc
Average Private Price+ $13,000 - $15,700
Trade In Price Guide+ $10,300 - $11,900
Average km+ 60000 - 70000
Price When New (RRP)+ $35,110

2004 Toyota Avalon MCX10R Mark III GXi -
http://www.carsales.com.au/car-valua...39419&search=1
4sp Automatic Unleaded Multi-point injected 6cyl 3.0 2995cc
Average Private Price+ $13,100 - $15,800
Trade In Price Guide+ $10,400 - $12,000
Average km+ 60000 - 70000
Price When New (RRP)+ $30,990

2004 Toyota Camry ACV36R Altise -
http://www.carsales.com.au/car-valua...40345&search=1
4sp Automatic Unleaded Multi-point injected 4cyl 2.4 2362cc
Average Private Price+ $14,300 - $17,100
Trade In Price Guide+ $11,500 - $13,000
Average km+ 60000 - 70000
Price When New (RRP)+ $29,000

As you can see, Falcon is on par with Commodore, better then Magna and better then Avalon. As I said it was.

That good enough for you? Everyone is guilty of bias and favouritism, and yes my real life experience is quite valid input as I'm surrounded by these vehicles every day. And yes in many threads I do talk about taxi's, and why shouldn't I? They're an awesome test of how well put together a car is, if it doesn't last the distance taking the abuse a taxi does, what confidence would or should I have in it?

[#Russ#Es#]

Sorry guys, but this is getting a little offtopic...back to the thread title...

[Crazed]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

And of course, Falcon would be leading all Australian sales, and wouldnt be suffering the worst depreciation of all the australian large cars.

Using resale value to determine the build quality of a vehicle can be a bit of a stretch, as it ignores the issue of supply in the marketplace. Huge fleet dumpings of heavily discounted vehicles will drastically affect resale, as well as constant model updates. The perceived 'high' price of fuel will also affect the resale of a car which has the largest engine in the segment.

But I guess we all have different opinions as my AU Fairmont Ghia and AU2 Fairmont Ghia company cars were flawless. I vowed never to have an imported vehicle again after an absolutley shocking run of problems with a Nissan Maxima and a Subaru Outback (although to be fair, I do a lot of driving on crap rural dirt roads which the Aussie cars seem to love).

Anyway, the Focus being built here is fantastic news. Finally we have a small car being built in Australia. I would not be surprised to see if the biggest selling car in 2012 is the Ford Focus.

[Dave_au]

Using your figures for private sale

2004 Ford Falcon BA MkII XT -
42.3%-50.6%

2004 Holden Commodore VZ Executive -
43.4%-51.8%

2004 Mitsubishi Magna TW ES -
37.0%-44.7%

2004 Toyota Avalon MCX10R Mark III GXi
42.27%-50.9%

2004 Toyota Camry ACV36R Altise -
49%-58.9%

Actually gives Falcon to be second last - but whats a percentage in this debate.

Just look at the back of wheelsmag for the future 3 year figures - BF series II is on 39% from memory.

[Steffo]

Yeah, and the massive 1% difference between the Commodore, Falcon and Avalon is just devastating to potential owners isn't it?

The only domestically made car with a significant resale advantage is the Camry.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

But the jobs are not in Geelong.

Some are, one artical said that the focus panels will be stamped in Geelong

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Crazed

Using resale value to determine the build quality of a vehicle can be a bit of a stretch, as it ignores the issue of supply in the marketplace. Huge fleet dumpings of heavily discounted vehicles will drastically affect resale, as well as constant model updates. The perceived 'high' price of fuel will also affect the resale of a car which has the largest engine in the segment.

But I guess we all have different opinions as my AU Fairmont Ghia and AU2 Fairmont Ghia company cars were flawless. I vowed never to have an imported vehicle again after an absolutley shocking run of problems with a Nissan Maxima and a Subaru Outback (although to be fair, I do a lot of driving on crap rural dirt roads which the Aussie cars seem to love).

Anyway, the Focus being built here is fantastic news. Finally we have a small car being built in Australia. I would not be surprised to see if the biggest selling car in 2012 is the Ford Focus.

I also don't see any quality problems with the Falcon but maybe because we have always had Fairmonts (XT Fairmont, XE Fairmont Ghia, AU Fairmont Ghia).

Do the luxury models get special treatment on the production line??

Just a thought about the Focus and run with me okay!

Austrlia designed and built the Mazda MX5 Turbo with a Turbocharged four banger, am I wrong in hoping for a Australian designed and built Focus Turbo??

Also does anybody else think Focus underpinnings with some unique aussie sheetmetal slapped with the iconic Laser badge would be a big hit???

Add to that the AWD system that is being developed, the 190kw MZR engine and you have a TX3 all over again.

[Martyvan]

IF Build Quality is sucessful, they could always build the mondeo here as well. Given it is somewhat based on the Focus chassis.... They share a number of components already, ie, gearboxes, and some engines across the range... It would be very interesting to see if it is possible that this could occur...

And as someone said pages earlier, being built here opens a range of possible options for different variants....

[BrisVegas]

I think it's great news for Ford Australia. The Focus is the dynamic leader in the small class and is already a 5 star safety rating. My Focus was built in South Efrika, but the quality is fine. If Australia can at least match the yarpies, they'll be on a winner.

FPV versions (300hp AWD) running about to go up against the HSV Astra's will be nice too.

Ford should get behind the Focus and Mondeo as they're top quality vehicles and are what the motoring public are increasingly looking for. We'll be upgrading to the Mondeo diesel next time around, as it's plenty big enough for a family, safe, economical and it looks classy. Some of the dealerships need a bomb under them to shake the one-eyed Falcon mentality. It's a top car, but Ford can no longer be a one model brand in Oz...

[Deanodriver]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Just a thought about the Focus and run with me okay!

Austrlia designed and built the Mazda MX5 Turbo with a Turbocharged four banger, am I wrong in hoping for a Australian designed and built Focus Turbo??

Also does anybody else think Focus underpinnings with some unique aussie sheetmetal slapped with the iconic Laser badge would be a big hit???

Add to that the AWD system that is being developed, the 190kw MZR engine and you have a TX3 all over again.

If you want a turbocharged Focus, isn't the XR5T good enough for you?

Personally, I think let we should the Laser badge die. Unless you think it's a better idea to badge the Mondeo as the Cortina or Telstar for more sales?

Totally agreed on the Falcon-only view of many groups. It almost seems that for many years, the small Fords are an afterthought, and playing second fiddle to the Falcon. The small Fords are very good cars.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Yeah, and the massive 1% difference between the Commodore, Falcon and Avalon is just devastating to potential owners isn't it?

Devestating to fleets with the current projections - seen the wheels quoted three year resale for the aussie four?

June 2007
Ford Falcon XT 38%
Holden Commodore Omega 46%
Mitsubishi 380 ES 53%
Toyota Camry 51%
Toyota Aurion 49%.

[sleekism]

XR5 looks the part but I don't like the idea of a grunty buzzbox they are meant to be peaky IMO.

Also apparently the computer is really intrusive in the XR5 not allowing full throttle launches.

Number one on hatchback list is BMW 130i- RWD plus 3.0L I6 cant go wrong

[zetec]

Originally Posted by sleekism

XR5 looks the part but I don't like the idea of a grunty buzzbox they are meant to be peaky IMO.

Also apparently the computer is really intrusive in the XR5 not allowing full throttle launches.

Number one on hatchback list is BMW 130i- RWD plus 3.0L I6 cant go wrong

The traction control is what kicks in. No real problem, just turn it off.

Peaky cars like Civic Type R's are a to drive in the city, a grunty hatchback like the XR5 is an absolute pleasure to drive, it'll cope with anyhting including passengers and doesn't need to be flogged. It's my favourite car to drive daily the XR5. Like a small Falcon, high torque, great sound, smooth and refined, an awesome daily cruiser that whe opened up is not far off an XR6 turbo for straightline to be honest.

And for the 130i, you're not wrong there regarding performance, love to fang one, although packaging-wise it'd be a pain in the bum to live with, best suited to a 2 seater as the rear seat is shocking.

Front wheel drive knockers will forever rattle off about torque steer, european indicators or the "dangers" of not being able to drift in the wet. Really what it all boils down to is a lack of people who've actually stepped out of their EA 3spd and into a modern tail-happy front wheel driver that's properly setup (like a Focus or a Mazda 3) and the lack of people who actually know what the hell they're talking about! Most sporty 1200kg 2.0L front drivers will run rings around cars twice their size and will happily show a 6 cylinder a thing or two in a straight line whilst using less fuel. People just need to get off the horse and try them for a change. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Then you'll know what all of us small car guys and girls have been banging on about for years!

I laugh when I see $3k shitboxes with $6k worth of subs, rims and bodykits being flogged with two sicko looking blokes (if you can call them that) reclined past the rear windows in the car, thinking their VS Executive V6 with HSV kit is the ducks nuts while a modern, safe, efficient and classy looking Euro hatch obliterates them through a round-about, probably cost the same in total as the bling barge did and will be a hell of a lot more reliable. It'll smoke them off the lights, outhandle it with a flat tyre and still pass roadworthy with nothing more than the signature on a sheet of paper. As for the left indicators, I drive a manual with left hand indicators and apart from wrapping myself around telegraph poles daily and losing control every time I turn a corner... It's a no brainer. Again - try it before you knock it, it seriously has so little impact on anything that it's not even worth thinking about.

[Deanodriver]

Originally Posted by sleekism

XR5 looks the part but I don't like the idea of a grunty buzzbox they are meant to be peaky IMO.

So you then suggest an engine with 60Nm more torque than the XR5's engine?

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Deanodriver

If you want a turbocharged Focus, isn't the XR5T good enough for you?

Too slow! It runs over 7 to 100 and 15's down the quarter - personally can't see how anyone can get excited over that (an XT Taxi runs similar times). Looks great though I will admit.

Chuck the Mazda 3 MPS engine in and then your talking...

[FalconXV]

I expect nothing less than an FPV monster version ( building on torque steer theme of 3MPS, Focus RS with an Aussie twist!) More power than the others and a wheelspinning unforgiving(but rewarding) freak with the DSC off. Exhibiting trademark road manners with DSC on, but able to smoke the fronts up Aussie style. welcome to FWD menace!

[XR8-260]

Originally Posted by sleekism

XR5 looks the part but I don't like the idea of a grunty buzzbox they are meant to be peaky IMO.

Also apparently the computer is really intrusive in the XR5 not allowing full throttle launches.

Number one on hatchback list is BMW 130i- RWD plus 3.0L I6 cant go wrong

The R32 Golf is my personal favorite. DSG, AWD, great looks and one of the nicest sounding V6s :.