August 2008 VFACTS - Page 3

irlewy86 · 04-09-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

Yup, brand loyalty is huge. Look at Harley Davidson. I know some blokes that dont want a motorcycle they want a Harley. Same thing, blokes that want a Commodore want a Commodore, full stop.
Actually now I think about it, most blokes I know that have a Harley also have a Commodore.

Makes sense really, owning both a Harley and a Holden means bulk discount with the local tow truck operator.

FTE72 · 04-09-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Makes sense really, owning both a Harley and a Holden means bulk discount with the local tow truck operator.

**russellw** · 04-09-2008, 05:51 PM

The usual graphical look at the data can be found HERE while the supplementary data reviewed can be found HERE.

Cheers
Russ

new2ford · 04-09-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Toyota's sales took an unexpectedly big nose-dive. I wonder what the reason for that was?
..........

The high fuel prices have distorted the market, and the large car segment is again the big loser in August. I wonder when the rebound will actually start?

I don't know if there will be a rebound, the world of the private car is set to change. The other statistics car enthusiasts need to consider is that public transport usage has suddenly been surging. This may result in people to think twice about their car, either not having one or at least putting off a decision to replace their car with a new one. The years of underinvestment in PT has caught state governments on the hop and much of the infrastructure lacks the capacity to carry this increase that blind freddy could have seen coming years ago. But the Rudd govt, which should show leadership, continues to throw support at motorway projects.

If the large car is to survive in this country the manufacturers should be urgently looking at reducing dependence on petroleum products as fuel. In this context, diesel is of little use, now at the stage of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Hybrid cars are one option but still use petrol. LPG (which is a strength Ford has over other manufacturers) will be promising for a while despite its petroleum association. I think Ford should be looking again at natural gas, maybe even gas-electric hybrids. These alternatives may not help country users a lot but would be very relevant to city use.

And above all, Rudd should be getting us right off imported petroleum dependence by funding public transport and particularly electric-powered PT.

I'm sure the people at Ford know all these things, just a question of how quickly and flexibly they can respond and adapt.

whynot · 04-09-2008, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

i know resale is horrible on large cars but can't these fleet guys count???

Trust me, the fleet guys can count extremely well. Holden give a massive discount for the Commodore. Toyota is almost dumping the Camry/Aurion to the major fleet buyers.

To use my fleet list prices as an example, a Territory is around $3000 per year (pre tax) more expensive than the Kluger. The Falcon is typically around $1000 per year (pre tax) more expensive than an equivalent Commodore. The difference between the G6E and an Aurion Presara is $2000 per year. At lot of my colleagues look at the price difference and decide to pocket the change.

If Ford wants to sell product, then they need to sharpen their price.

GTP290 · 04-09-2008, 10:02 PM

I dont buy the brand loyality theory. In the early 80s the Fords where whipping the Commodores a*se and Holden in Australia had to be bailed out by GM to stop the Australian division of its operations closing up for good.
The FG can look great lowered with bigger rims and rubber, but as a base model car, the Commodore does look a little more proportioned than the Falcon. The rear end of the Falcon looks a little out of shape in stock form, but the XR6 in the brighter colours and lowered FPV and G6 and G6Es and tray top utes look very nice, but so do the HSV Commodores. I havent owned a Holden in over 11 years and Im a mad FORD v8 supercar fan, but I would own an E series HSV in a heartbeat if I came across a good deal!

Joey_Falcon · 04-09-2008, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snappy84

I think that what it comes down too. Many people i have spoken to don't like the look of the new falcon .So they would no buy it (either would I)

when i used to go out to pick up a lady I never went looking for a ugly girl that r**ts well . You got for the hot one and say look what im r**ting.
The fg falcon (imo) is a uglycar thet drives well .
The Ve is not great but is better looking (imo).

I totally agree with you, well said.

Holden have a lot more to offer with range, price, options and support than Ford do, and as mentioned they are very good at marketing.
Imo commodore do look better than the New falcon (hate to say). In this cruel world looks are everything.

Also a big attraction to the SS is it has a "big 6.0", although it has less power than the Boss 290.

That in itself is enough to make people go the commodore.

whales · 05-09-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP290

I dont buy the brand loyality theory. In the early 80s the Fords where whipping the Commodores a*se and Holden in Australia had to be bailed out by GM to stop the Australian division of its operations closing up for good.
The FG can look great lowered with bigger rims and rubber, but as a base model car, the Commodore does look a little more proportioned than the Falcon. The rear end of the Falcon looks a little out of shape in stock form, but the XR6 in the brighter colours and lowered FPV and G6 and G6Es and tray top utes look very nice, but so do the HSV Commodores. I havent owned a Holden in over 11 years and Im a mad FORD v8 supercar fan, but I would own an E series HSV in a heartbeat if I came across a good deal!

I don't deny what your is very true, but when the Falcon was whipping Commodores ar*e, the Commodore was more of a mid sized car and it was when Aussies wanted full sized cars, but now the Commodore is a full size car everyone has flocked back to them.

weenie · 05-09-2008, 01:14 PM

Hey , I was a through & through blue blooded ford man up until 2004. It was when i required a certain type of vehicle that , at the time ford did not have that i got into a hsv. After ignoring all the one eyed family & friends, & actually making my own decision, i realised that each brand has its plusses & minuses. But again, most people making comments wont even be in a position to even contemplate a new purchase anyway. As much as the one eyed fan boys dont like it, the fg does not make a big enough statment, or stand out as much different to the bf. every one i have seen, i could not tell until it was next to me, what model it was. They have no where near the optional extras that holden/hsv have. Where are the factory fitted 20x9.5 wheels ford?? As for 5 stars, who gives a toss??? only the prius driving cardigan brigade. It has airbags & brakes & stability program. I personally think the fpv stuff looks pretty good, but i like the hsv better. Fords colours dont seen to have the same wow factor as holden either. As for holden being an inferior product, dont kid yourselves, there are lemons in each brand. It just seems the people that canned the v8 in the 80s & made the Au falcon are still working at ford, most likley in their marketing & design dept. Instead of whinging about it, get out there & trade in all your out dated older falcons & buy a new one, put your money where your mouth is.If you dont, then you may have to ask yourself why???Only then will you maybe have an answer about the perceived lack of sales in the current market.

Martyvan · 05-09-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weenie

*snip*As for 5 stars, who gives a toss??? only the prius driving cardigan brigade. It has airbags & brakes & stability program *snip*

Family people. I for one would consider the safety of a particular model before purchasing. I would also consider real world and spec sheet fuel consumption. No way i am putting my family into a holdenwoo, just because its cheap, and allegedgly uses less fuel.... than say a focus..

weenie · 05-09-2008, 02:16 PM

sorry martyvan, my post does not apply to less than 6 cyl or oil burners. Mainly just discussing faclon/commodore. 5 star is just like the heart foundation tick, or the made in aus symbol. All can be bought for a price, & they can also set a very narrow & biased criteria. Especially when it comes to the difference between passive & active safety. last i looked dsc/esp was not standard in the falc was it?? But it has an extra crumple zone.

prydey · 05-09-2008, 02:39 PM

for me the sales figures once again show that people are not flocking to the small car market.

most common small cars were down on sales from last year, as were the med/large passenger vehicles but the 4wd/suv segment continues to boom outselling the previous year sales.

if people were truly influenced by rising fuel costs etc then why are the sales of these big thirsty vehicles on the rise?

the way i see it is a lot of people make sacrifices in other areas of their lifestyle so they can continue to drive their vehicle of choice.

anyone who seriously expected the falcon to jump to the top of the sales charts or even pip holden commodore were always setting themselves up for major disappointment. as good as the ba was over the vy/z it only pipped it twice in the monthly sales race and i believe the ba was a lot better than the vz compared to the fg over ve.

kangaroo's, meat pies and holden cars was a major ad for what is australian and although the automotive industry has moved largely offshore since then the public perception hasn't changed.

irlewy86 · 05-09-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weenie

sorry martyvan, my post does not apply to less than 6 cyl or oil burners. Mainly just discussing faclon/commodore. 5 star is just like the heart foundation tick, or the made in aus symbol. All can be bought for a price, & they can also set a very narrow & biased criteria. Especially when it comes to the difference between passive & active safety. last i looked dsc/esp was not standard in the falc was it?? But it has an extra crumple zone.

Last I checked you had to have ESC to attain 5 stars;

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANCAP

Please note that vehicles tested after 1st January 2008 require electronic stability control (ESC) to achieve 5 stars. Results released before 1 January 2008 will not be reassessed and vehicles will retain their existing rating

**PepeLePew** · 05-09-2008, 04:24 PM

Me sits and scratches my nuts while wondering how oil has dropped from a peak of $147 a barrel to under $110 and yet pump prices in Adelaide yesterday were in the low $1.60 range STILL

Somebody save our large cars and start whinging the way you whinged when it was RISING. Interestingly OIL PRICE isnt even listed in CNN's top stories quick list now ;)

XR Martin · 05-09-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

Me sits and scratches my nuts while wondering how oil has dropped from a peak of $147 a barrel to under $110 and yet pump prices in Adelaide yesterday were in the low $1.60 range STILL

Somebody save our large cars and start whinging the way you whinged when it was RISING. Interestingly OIL PRICE isnt even listed in CNN's top stories quick list now ;)

I think its got to do with the fact the Aussie dollar has fallen to crap in the last few weeks.
The same amount of money buys the same amount of oil

geoffa1 · 06-09-2008, 10:20 AM

Ford desperately needs to start decent advertising.
When Holden advertises a Captiva, their main message is that the deisel is more economical than the Territory, just to get showroom traffic, once people get there, they realise they don't like how it drives and get a petrol one instead.
Why the hell isn't Ford shouting from the treetops that a Gas Falcon is cheaper to run than a Corolla and half of the other small cars around? Instead, in little letters, the ad says that a gas Falcon uses less fuel than a petrol Falcon.
For gods sake Ford wake up, Falcon, Mondeo, Focus, Fiesta should all be the best selling car in thir segments - they are the best cars there, but you're just not telling people that - at the moment you are relying on a new motor that is 2 years away and a local Focus that is 3 years away to fix things, the Same Yank masters who won't let you export may not be that patient.

new2ford · 06-09-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoffa1

Ford desperately needs to start decent advertising.
When Holden advertises a Captiva, their main message is that the deisel is more economical than the Territory, just to get showroom traffic, once people get there, they realise they don't like how it drives and get a petrol one instead.
Why the hell isn't Ford shouting from the treetops that a Gas Falcon is cheaper to run than a Corolla and half of the other small cars around? Instead, in little letters, the ad says that a gas Falcon uses less fuel than a petrol Falcon.
For gods sake Ford wake up, Falcon, Mondeo, Focus, Fiesta should all be the best selling car in thir segments - they are the best cars there, but you're just not telling people that - at the moment you are relying on a new motor that is 2 years away and a local Focus that is 3 years away to fix things, the Same Yank masters who won't let you export may not be that patient.

Yes it's frustrating isn't it. I have seen one Ford ad that does give that detail about the gas Falcon. I was reading a motoring column yesterday where the owner of a diesel Captiva was complaining that he couldn't get better than 10 l/100. On my last trip up the Hunter Valley in my Territory I got 9.5. Should I sue GMH for false advertising? Unfortunately most car buyers don't make critical choices - what can we do about it, myths are hard to bust.

tapeworm · 06-09-2008, 10:43 AM

Yes..imo it is very obvious that they should advertise when you have cars in almost every category that are better than you're competiotion in almost every way, yet they manage to murder you in the sales race...When Ford do advertise, they are the most tacky ads, trying to provoke a warm and fuzzy feeling while the competition are bragging about their cars, how economical, high tech and how hard they go and in Holdens case, how much they mean to Australia etc.. Ford would go along way to point out some of their many strengths and i would love to see them let on that Holden customers are in fact purchasing a south Korean rolling coffin, not an all Aussie icon that 95% of the population seem to believe.

4Vman · 06-09-2008, 10:56 AM

Spending more money on advertising will just send them down the gurgler quicker.. they already spend $2000 per car on advertising and marketing as it is.
They need to divert more funds into R+D and product development...

geoffa1 · 06-09-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Spending more money on advertising will just send them down the gurgler quicker.. they already spend $2000 per car on advertising and marketing as it is.
They need to divert more funds into R+D and product development...

Not more money on advertising, just saying the right things in the adverting they have. Get the message out there that Falcon and Territory are the most Australian cars out there, that your family is more likely to die in a Commodore or Aurion than a Falcon (based on 5 star crash ratings) etc.

Selectively quote the truth like everyone else does, to Fords favor instead of the nebulous advertising execs wet dreams that win awards, but don't sell cars.

Given that oversea markets and volumes that exports bring are closed to Ford Australia, Ford does a pretty good job on R&D and product development, when you consider that Holden has 3 times the volume to spread its R&D over, and that the Camry and Aurion are the same as those built in Japan and USA, with 10x+ the volume of Falcon, they do not show the added value in the money spent.

Crazed · 06-09-2008, 11:17 AM

In Adelaide's daily rag a couple of days ago it said that Holden sold over 1500 Sportswagons in August, these are higher than ute numbers.

I wonder if one day our market will follow the Japanese and European trend where the wagon variant of a model typically outsells the sedan.

4Vman · 06-09-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoffa1

Not more money on advertising, just saying the right things in the adverting they have. Get the message out there that Falcon and Territory are the most Australian cars out there, that your family is more likely to die in a Commodore or Aurion than a Falcon (based on 5 star crash ratings) etc.

Selectively quote the truth like everyone else does, to Fords favor instead of the nebulous advertising execs wet dreams that win awards, but don't sell cars.

Given that oversea markets and volumes that exports bring are closed to Ford Australia, Ford does a pretty good job on R&D and product development, when you consider that Holden has 3 times the volume to spread its R&D over, and that the Camry and Aurion are the same as those built in Japan and USA, with 10x+ the volume of Falcon, they do not show the added value in the money spent.

IMO the advertising is not the problem!!!! People will shop cars around and choose on their own research, not what some TV commercial tells them.
The market is shifting away from large sedans to SUV's and mid sized cars for starters.
Also car sales are down across the board, on top of that there are far more choices today then even 2 years ago let alone a decade ago, the pie isnt much bigger but each model represents a smaller piece of it now.

prydey · 06-09-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

IMO the advertising is not the problem!!!! People will shop cars around and choose on their own research, not what some TV commercial tells them.
The market is shifting away from large sedans to SUV's and mid sized cars for starters.
Also car sales are down across the board, on top of that there are far more choices today then even 2 years ago let alone a decade ago, the pie isnt much bigger but each model represents a smaller piece of it now.

every month when these figures are posted we seem to go through the same routine.

instead of noticing the whole market was down and which types of vehicles were dong well, all the experts get on here and proclaim the end of the falcon.

DanielXR8 · 06-09-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

every month when these figures are posted we seem to go through the same routine.

instead of noticing the whole market was down and which types of vehicles were dong well, all the experts get on here and proclaim the end of the falcon.

Ok so the whole market is down and so is Falcon. How does that help the cause when the way you make money is selling cars? Gee Ford is loosing money, but hey look over there, Holden is too. Makes the shareholders of Ford and the financial institutions with large loans to Ford, just so much more happy huh?!? Yeah your money is going down the drain, but look at the other guys!

And please no Tom Gorman talk of how you can magically make money from less cars. Every cent they can get in efficiencies has been done already. Now its a numbers game and I think the people you call "experts" might be aware of that.

Dan

Homer · 06-09-2008, 08:06 PM

This is why the Commodore is selling so well I would say...

http://www.holdencampaign.com.au/60/...re.html#/home/

Bit of a bargin really.

prydey · 06-09-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Ok so the whole market is down and so is Falcon. How does that help the cause when the way you make money is selling cars? Gee Ford is loosing money, but hey look over there, Holden is too. Makes the shareholders of Ford and the financial institutions with large loans to Ford, just so much more happy huh?!? Yeah your money is going down the drain, but look at the other guys!

And please no Tom Gorman talk of how you can magically make money from less cars. Every cent they can get in efficiencies has been done already. Now its a numbers game and I think the people you call "experts" might be aware of that.

Dan

so even though the stats show the whole market was down in august you expect the falcon to go against this trend.

i just don't see the need to paint such a gloomy picture just because falcon isn't selling as good as commodore (which it never will if you ask me). the market is ever changing and comparing figures to even as little as 12 months ago isn't all that relavent.

4Vman · 06-09-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homer

This is why the Commodore is selling so well I would say...

http://www.holdencampaign.com.au/60/...re.html#/home/

Bit of a bargin really.

I wonder if they're making money selling them that cheaply though..
They're offering 30% discount to staff at the moment to try and move stock....
Holden are in just as much strife as Ford...
As prydey pointed out, the whole industry is quiet, not just Ford, people need to get this little piece of info into their thick heads before bagging out Ford all the time..

Homer · 06-09-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I wonder if they're making money selling them that cheaply though..
They're offering 30% discount to staff at the moment to try and move stock....
Holden are in just as much strife as Ford...
As prydey pointed out, the whole industry is quiet, not just Ford, people need to get this little piece of info into their thick heads before bagging out Ford all the time..

Yeah I dont think they would be making much on them at all.
I'm pretty sure that ford was making more of a profit margin per vehicle sold in the BA days, maybe the same is true now?

Wally · 06-09-2008, 09:37 PM

March Vfacts
Commodore 3988 Falcon 2322 172%

April Vfacts
Commodore 3324 Falcon 1884 176%

July Vfacts
Commodore 4905 Falcon 3448 142%

August Vfacts
Commodore 4815 Falcon 2708 178%

Not really the outcomes that many predicted. August would have been hit with the petrol price and loan interest rates.

Rodp · 06-09-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

so even though the stats show the whole market was down in august you expect the falcon to go against this trend.

i just don't see the need to paint such a gloomy picture just because falcon isn't selling as good as commodore (which it never will if you ask me). the market is ever changing and comparing figures to even as little as 12 months ago isn't all that relavent.

I'd certainly expect it to make ground vs the Commodore considering the relative release dates between the two, it's more economical, it's been given the nod in just about every review vs the Commodore and it's the first 5 star locally built car but, despite all of that, it actually lost significant ground.

That's cause for concern at the very least.