Global platforms are the only way forward - Page 3

BENT_8 · 17-10-2008, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carby

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The aerodynamics of a SUV suck - at high speed their aero efficiency is appalling using far more fuel than a nice strealined FG would, and I suppose it depends on how frequently they have to tow things if it's only occasionally then a RWD Falcon is more than adequate.

Besides, if Ford does stop making a RWD Falcon I can just see a number of Ford guys going to Holden - why wouldn't they? Many don't really care about the Holden/Ford thing - it's just whats "best" at the time, but when it's all said and done the Commodore and Falcon are so similar in size performance and other abilities, Ford would be handing the RWD market to Holden on a platter! It may be a smaller market - but you can be assured that the future generations of Commodores and Falcons (if they survive) will have far more efficient engines to keep them ecomomically viable.

A RWD Falcon cant pull 2500kg's! the Ranger will and i doubt anyone with enough money to own a new SUV and boat/caravan weighing 2500Kg+ wont be concerned with an extra 2c per Km because of aerodynamics, infact i doubt it would even be a deciding factor.
Add to this Fords attempt to push wagon buyers towards SUV's by leaving a Falcon wagon varient off the list meaning anyone who needs large load carrying capabilities will find the Falcon too restrictive.

Now dont take this the wrong way but i have to ask what rock you've been hiding under as most people recognise that Automotive manufacturers worldwide are on their knees including FoA.
There is not enough market share to justify continued investment in a vehicle which is only sold here and NZ.
Holden may continue with a smaller RWD vehicle such as the Torana concept thing, but then Holdens always sell, you dont have to be overly bright to want one, and they'll put their eggs in that basket confidently as they have done for years, remember the VB-VL days when they downsized from the large Kingswood platform. People said they were doomed, but they still sold plenty.

BENT_8 · 17-10-2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Even if the Falcon is dropped Ford will continue to make RWD/4WD SUV's... id buy one of those before a Holden.

See your coming 'round..

This is exactly what Ford will be relying on.

Instead of fighting inevitable change we should be telling Ford if the Falcon must go, the replacement had better be the best thing they've turned out in terms of build quality, styling and go fast.

uranium_death · 17-10-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR-CHIEF

what about those who want a XR type car? only option is the S series from Holden

There will be no replacement for the XR6 turbo, which even Holden fans I speak to respect immensely. No Holden can replace it.
I also dislike the look of the VE immensely. The sedans at least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4VMan

Even if the Falcon is dropped Ford will continue to make RWD/4WD SUV's... id buy one of those before a Holden.

Ditto.
We have greater choice nowadays, which is why large cars are not as dominant as they once were. We have more manufacturers importing their goods into Australia, and people simply have more choice.
Even Hyundai, who released absolute buckets of garbage in the late 80s have earned respect over time.

But since I like the space, as well as what is under the bonnet, I'll stick with a large vehicle that is preferentially Australian built, and I do not want an Aurion or Commodore if I can help it.

vztrt · 17-10-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Add to this Fords attempt to push wagon buyers towards SUV's by leaving a Falcon wagon varient off the list meaning anyone who needs large load carrying capabilities will find the Falcon too restrictive.

Actually the market did this themselves. The BFIII wagon just got the go ahead as they could justify it otherwise the wagon would have died with the Fairlane.

burnz · 17-10-2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR-CHIEF

what about those who want a XR type car? only option is the S series from Holden

what's wrong with an ss-ssv

HSE2 · 18-10-2008, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Have another read mate, i never said the Falcon will be replaced with a rebadged US import!!
I believe the 'Falcon' nameplate will be dropped altogether and that segment of sales will be absorbed by Mondeo type FWD as average joes hack and those who need to tow will opt for a SUV be it territory or Ranger.

Never said you did. It was a youthenisum. The specifics aren't required to be accurate as its the sentiment that is on display.

4Vman · 18-10-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

See your coming 'round..

This is exactly what Ford will be relying on.

Instead of fighting inevitable change we should be telling Ford if the Falcon must go, the replacement had better be the best thing they've turned out in terms of build quality, styling and go fast.

I wouldnt say im "coming around".. i love the Territory so id still buy one for the family, but for my personal performance requirements i would have to go Euro.
If Ford drop the Falcon it turns its back on the entire Australian Performance segment here.. you cant cater to "go fast" with large FWD.

GS608 · 18-10-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

what's wrong with an ss-ssv

nothing, i'm just saying there is no option from Ford, no competition, anybody who wants a sports family car will flock to Holden, and there are a lot of those people in this country, not everyone will be happy buying a FWD Mondeo or Ranger to tow the boat, Why would you when you can have the best of both worlds in the SS? (able to tow big loads and drive around town in comfort)

4Vman · 18-10-2008, 08:14 AM

Does anyone seriously think Holden/HSV will keep pushing the boundaries if Ford drop RWD??? We need two players in the market, it maintains pressure and keeps them at their limits..

The Stylist · 18-10-2008, 09:09 AM

Bloody hell guy's, some of you make it sound like it's already over for Ford Australia. It is not!

There is no firm evidence that the Falcon is going FWD (they're just keeping their options open) and nor that it will disappear. There are always rumours about the Falcon getting canned when future models come into question, and they all seem to involve suggesting that the Ford Taurus will replace it, and as far as I'm aware there are no plans to produce the post 2010 Taurus in right hand drive - it's a tophat redesign of the current Taurus/Fivehundred and its due to be released early next year at the Detroit Motor Show.

The articles that we have been reading to date don't give us anything new, they're just rehashed bits of infomation with the opinionated assumptions that it's all doom and gloom. There is no devastating leak of closure infomation like Mitsubishi Australia had before they closed.

Until there are firm facts there is no need to worry.

**Fordman1** · 18-10-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Stylist

Bloody hell guy's, some of you make it sound like it's already over for Ford Australia. It is not!

There is no firm evidence that the Falcon is going FWD (they're just keeping their options open) and nor that it will disappear.
Until there are firm facts there is no need to worry.

No there's not, but there are these sign's.

1. Falcon sales are the lowest in the Brands history.

2. Ford in the US is on the verge of bankrupcy.

3. Ford Stock at 'Junk status'.

4. FoA laying off hundred's.

5. More 'downday's being annouced POST re-balance.

6. Global financial crisis will not be resolved for quite some time.

7. FoA looking to do whatever it can to pay the bill's.

The intelligent thing to do is reduce costs everywhere, Including developent. That would mean using a design from overseas. ie: Mondeo & Focus (IF local manufacture continues).

BENT_8 · 18-10-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

If Ford drop the Falcon it turns its back on the entire Australian Performance segment here.. you cant cater to "go fast" with large FWD.

Re read the part where i said MEDIUM FWD will replace the LARGE RWD Falcon for market share.
No problems putting 180-200kw through a FWD medium car though?

With the option for an AWD monster.

BENT_8 · 18-10-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Does anyone seriously think Holden/HSV will keep pushing the boundaries if Ford drop RWD??? We need two players in the market, it maintains pressure and keeps them at their limits..

Totally agree, but were talking Holden here.
If anyone will go against all logic it would be they.

Who else could pull off turning a FWD derived engine 90*, putting it in a large RWD car, mated to the worst auto box ever conceived and then make it a market leader??

Holden, coz ya dont have to be bright to want one.

4Vman · 18-10-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Totally agree, but were talking Holden here.
If anyone will go against all logic it would be they.

Who else could pull off turning a FWD derived engine 90*, putting it in a large RWD car, mated to the worst auto box ever conceived and then make it a market leader??

Holden, coz ya dont have to be bright to want one.

Yet people scoff at me when i suggest brand loyalty sells cars over functionality or advertising...

**DJR-351** · 18-10-2008, 03:15 PM

Family getabout = Chyrsler Voyager.

Towing boat/trailer/interstate trips = Landcruiser.

For fun = XA Coupe.

Ford will do what it needs to survive as all big business has to do.

Basing business decisions on sentimentality and the wants of a few traditionists is a surefire way of going bust in any business.

Anyhow whose to say all this conjecture was not put out by FoA to guage the publics response.

Interesting, how many on this forum have actually voiced their concerns to Ford themselves, thats where i would have thought it would have done the most good..... :voldar02:

4Vman · 18-10-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

Interesting, how many on this forum have actually voiced their concerns to Ford themselves, thats where i would have thought it would have done the most good..... :voldar02:

I buy their product, that's how i support them, many critisise them, without ever buying a new one.... seems a bit rich doesnt it.

**DJR-351** · 18-10-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I buy their product, that's how i support them, many critisise them, without ever buying a new one.... seems a bit rich doesnt it.

Sorry, i was not critisising Ford at all, i was just defending buisness in genral.

The newest Ford i had was a BA which ended up stolen and burnt out, upon which i decided i did not get any fun out driving it and spent the payout on the Coupe.

For me personally, there is nothing out there new that has excited me for years from any of the camps, hence the Coupe for fun and the other two for practical reasons.

In all i have owned TWELVE FORDS of various shapes and sizes (pre BA), and have always supported them in their racing endeavors.

I do hope you are not suggesting i need to buy each new model (whether i like it or not) to have some say in the matter......

used:

4Vman · 18-10-2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

Sorry, i was not critisising Ford at all, i was just defending buisness in genral.

The newest Ford i had was a BA which ended up stolen and burnt out, upon which i decided i did not get any fun out driving it and spent the payout on the Coupe.

For me personally, there is nothing out there new that has excited me for years from any of the camps, hence the Coupe for fun and the other two for practical reasons.

In all i have owned TWELVE FORDS of various shapes and sizes (pre BA), and have always supported them in their racing endeavors.

I do hope you are not suggesting i need to buy each new model (whether i like it or not) to have some say in the matter......

used:

No, not aimed at you in the slightest! it was more a general comment based on obsevations lately.

irlewy86 · 18-10-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Holden may continue with a smaller RWD vehicle such as the Torana concept thing

Torana was based around the Kappa platform (premium mid size platform), that program has since been cancelled.

burnz · 18-10-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Torana was based around the Kappa platform (premium mid size platform), that program has since been cancelled.

no the kappa production is in half swing. (adelaide plant)
see the tt36 and base model when the ford i6 is droped (2011) for the first.

Sprint XR8 · 18-10-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Torana was based around the Kappa platform (premium mid size platform), that program has since been cancelled.

In september GM cancelled all future product development of the commodore zeta platform. Holden are in the same boat as Ford. I cant see GM in their current situation giving Holden another billion dollar baby any time soon.

4Vman · 18-10-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coupex

In september GM cancelled all future product development of the commodore zeta platform. Holden are in the same boat as Ford. I cant see GM in their current situation giving Holden another billion dollar baby any time soon.

Its amazing the contrast in perception between Holden and Fords's current economic position, both "appear" to be poles apart going by media coverage, yet both are probably in very similar positions.
Holden seem to be continually flying under the radar and getting a free ride from the media...

**DJM83** · 18-10-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I buy their product, that's how i support them, many critisise them, without ever buying a new one.... seems a bit rich doesnt it.

So i need to buy a NEW ford so i can become a supporter :togo:

:

4Vman · 18-10-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 51RTE

So i need to buy a NEW ford so i can become a supporter :togo:

:

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?!!

:

Sprint XR8 · 18-10-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Its amazing the contrast in perception between Holden and Fords's current economic position, both "appear" to be poles apart going by media coverage, yet both are probably in very similar positions.
Holden seem to be continually flying under the radar and getting a free ride from the media...

It's just as likely the next commodore will be a rebadged chev malibu.

xurbanx · 18-10-2008, 05:20 PM

Makes sense, why spend money making something different when it'd cost less to build the same thing.

irlewy86 · 18-10-2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

no the kappa production is in half swing. (adelaide plant)
see the tt36 and base model when the ford i6 is droped (2011) for the first.

I dunno from what I heard Kappa was due for replacement next year and Kappa 2 got the big red light.

BENT_8 · 18-10-2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yet people scoff at me when i suggest brand loyalty sells cars over functionality or advertising...

You are right to a certain degree in that we, as Ford fans, expect excellence in build and functionality. If Ford drop the ball people tell them, unfortunately all too often in previous years.
Holden fans are happy to buy whatever they are offered.
If thats where they get their brand loyalty they can stick it.

LOCO XP · 18-10-2008, 05:59 PM

By the time this actually plays out, the oil reserves will have practically dried up, the price of fuel that still available will be $126.98/L and only available from the Kosciusko Summit BP Service Station (as the sea levels will have risen and 93% of Australia will be underwater), Winter average temperatures will be 28 degrees C higher, the global economy will have crashed completely and all loans will be administered by Somalian pirates at a rate of 63% compounded hourly and any late payments will be punishable by death.....

Dare I continue?

Times are changing. Priorities are changing. The public's taste in general is located somewhere in the distal part of the bowel. New cars in general are catering to that taste by offering a copious serving of bland flavoured boredom.

For the few people that really care it will be a shame if they lose the RWD Falcon, but I'm sure that a vast majority of the sheep population would not know the difference nor could they care if they owned a FWD, RWD or AWD vehicle, the important thing is that it gets 6L/100km, has a 5 year warranty, and metallic paint is no extra charge. That being said, I don't like front wheel drive cars, and if given the option to buy a new car, I'd be looking for the best RWD sedan available for my money. If that is a Holden, so be it. But the reality is that I can't see myself in the market for a new car of any make anytime soon. I'm sure there will be plenty of RWD used cars available when I opt to upgrade.

This got me thinking. Word of the day:

A euphemism is a substitution of an agreeable or less offensive expression in place of one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant to the listener, or in the case of doublespeak, to make it less troublesome for the speaker

BENT_8 · 18-10-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I buy their product, that's how i support them, many critisise them, without ever buying a new one.... seems a bit rich doesnt it.

In all honesty you cant devalue anothers opinion on the product simply because they wont buy new.
I wouldn't, especially with a Ford product, as the depriciation on delivery added to the poor resale hurts the hip pocket too much.

Personally I'd hunt around for a clean low k 2-3yr old and save the 15k