Ford Australia Invests $230 Million in New Fuel-Efficient Engines for Local Vehicles

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

so its slower..

Well no actually. I too can quote reviews. Motor, April 2009. Diesel 0-100 of 8.94 sec, Petrol 9.37sec. Even if you think they are average at reviewing, same driver same day.

Originally Posted by Barry_v

has insignificant economy differences..

Same Motor test, Diesel 9.02L/100km, Petrol 12.10. Hardly insignificant. The claimed figures have the diesel using 2.9L less per 100km Or around 30% less. Insignificant I think not. Using todays prices are a little ambiguous as here diesel is actually cheaper than petrol at the moment.

Originally Posted by Barry_v

and they want you to pay more for it!

The diesel is actually only ~$1200 dearer than the petrol when comparing the equivalent models. There are only 2. Classic wagon - Petrol $36740, Diesel $37940, and Luxury sports - petrol $43440, diesel $44840. Hardly excessive. What you have quoted is very misleading. That is like saying you have to pay about $20k more to get the turbo 6 in the Falcon range. ie the difference between XT and G6ET. When it would be more accurate to compare the difference between the G6E and G6ET for example.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

european turbo diesels are no better, they generally have more peak output but the turbo lag and narrow powerband remain. you can pick an obscure overseas expensive diesel engine and compare it with a toyota engine.. but at the end of the day which is going to have more in common with a locally produced ford engine?

There was an article is Fridays Carsguide with one of Toyotas top guys saying that there diesel engines aren't as good as Europeans diesels, simply because they would rather spend their money on hybrid tech than diesels.

So even they admit that their diesels aren't as good.

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

So even they admit that their diesels aren't as good.

err.. who are you talking to? nobody here said anything about toyota diesels being better than european diesels.

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Well no actually. I too can quote reviews. Motor, April 2009. Diesel 0-100 of 8.94 sec, Petrol 9.37sec. Even if you think they are average at reviewing, same driver same day.

Same Motor test, Diesel 9.02L/100km, Petrol 12.10. Hardly insignificant. The claimed figures have the diesel using 2.9L less per 100km Or around 30% less. Insignificant I think not. Using todays prices are a little ambiguous as here diesel is actually cheaper than petrol at the moment.


The diesel is actually only ~$1200 dearer than the petrol when comparing the equivalent models. There are only 2. Classic wagon - Petrol $36740, Diesel $37940, and Luxury sports - petrol $43440, diesel $44840. Hardly excessive. What you have quoted is very misleading. That is like saying you have to pay about $20k more to get the turbo 6 in the Falcon range. ie the difference between XT and G6ET. When it would be more accurate to compare the difference between the G6E and G6ET for example.

I just did a google search for diesel mazda 6 and clicked on the first two reviews. I didnt go shopping for performance figures to back up my case. It is also not my fault mazda do not make the diesel available on the base model. this shows that their diesel is really not about saving money at all. it isnt an economically smart choice and why else would you buy one?

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

I just did a google search for diesel mazda 6 and clicked on the first two reviews. I didnt go shopping for performance figures to back up my case. It is also not my fault mazda do not make the diesel available on the base model. this shows that their diesel is really not about saving money at all. it isnt an economically smart choice and why else would you buy one?

I didnt go shopping for performance figures. I have a pile of magazines sitting in the lounge room and I remember motor did a comparison between the petrol and diesel 6. But I do try and back up my claims with as accurate as possible figures when I can.
Why would I buy one? Because its better than the petrol model.

Anyway I think we are far enough off topic. I however think that introducing a diesel into the Territory is a smart (albeit late) move as it is opening up another part of the market that previously wasnt available to the Ford. I think it will do well.
I would also say they went for the 2.7 over the 3.0 mainly due to cost.

[Gaz]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

show me a car with a diesel option that has better performance\drivability than its petrol variant.

BMW 320d (auto)
Acceleration 0-100km/h: 8.0 s
Combined: 6.0 L/100km
Maximum Power: 130 kW / 177 bhp / 4,000 rpm
Maximum Torque: 350 Nm / 1,750 rpm

BMW 320i manual (auto)
Acceleration 0-100km/h: 9.0 (9.8) s
Combined: 7.9 (8.0) L/100km
Maximum Power: 115kW /156 bhp / 6,400 rpm
Maximum Torque: 200 Nm / 3,600 rpm

the 320d is pure awesome... If I could afford one, I'd be in one. The diesel does rev out to about 4700rpm too.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

err.. who are you talking to? nobody here said anything about toyota diesels being better than european diesels.

He's talking to you.

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

Enough said. Toyota are far from being at the pinacle of turbo diesel DID technology. Go drive BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, VW and Ford EU diesel powered vehicles, then critise diesel technology. Toyota's are junk compared to the European offerings, IMO.

Saying "european diesels are no better" insinuates they're on par, and what Bossxr8 is saying is Toyota (your employer) disagree with you.

[Barry_v]

I had no idea a diesel falcon would have so much support. perhaps you guys should go set up a protest down at ford hq to get the diesel into the falcon.

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by Gaz

the 320d is pure awesome... If I could afford one, I'd be in one. The diesel does rev out to about 4700rpm too.

I wonder how well they sell, seeing as the diesel is a 4k option.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

I wonder how well they sell, seeing as the diesel is a 4k option.

Pretty Bloody Well, actually.

There are a heap of them around. Between BMW and Volkswagen, Diesel is becoming seriously considered by the general public.

Hell, I'd have had a Diesel X5, except for when I bought mine, Diesel was ~25¢ more per litre than Petrol was. You can't tell me that there is a shortage of X5 Diesels, or Touareg Diesels, or Discovery III Diesels on the road.

X5 diesel, Petrol and Twin Turbo Diesel Comparison.

Performance:

3.0d 3.0i 3.0TTd

Drag Coefficient (Cd)

0.34 0.33 0.34

Acceleration 0-100 (s)

8.1 8.1 7.0

Maximum Speed (km/h)

210 210 235

[NC 5ltr]

there was a review of the new bmw 330td in the weekends paper 200ish kw @ 6000 rpm and 520nm= low 6 sec quarters.

personally,i think european engines are markably better than most local engines.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Boss315

I’m surprised that no one has considered the 4-Cylinder talk is simply a bait and switch tactic to hide the fact that Focus won’t be built in Australia. In two years time they’ll probably announce the 4-Cylinder wasn’t viable and they’ve come up with some other scheme to fleece the Government and keep Ford AU operational.

In reality is this Falcon derivate required if they’ve already got the Mondeo on the market? What advantages does it offer?

No - That's not how it is at all.

4cyl has been on their agenda for a long time. 12-18 months in fact.

The Diesel/ecoBoost I4T was always on the table and in development. The announcement was all about letting Focus go, nothing more.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by HSE2

That could very well happen. I am waiting to be corrected on this, but from memory the focus added near nothing to our manufacturing base. It’s just not a huge loss. When Ford says no jobs are going to be lost I believe it to be so becasue there was very little local content in the car.

My point here is that we don’t expect people to own something to be the prerequisite of making an informed opinion. The point you raise is a good one. That is not being anti Ford, it’s raising a valid question given the recent automotive history.

Car companies essentially can’t work with any degree of confidence into the future like they used to. That 6 year cycle has really come in. It makes it hard and to have to constantly justify each movement in public.

The people that go in guns blazing with full support come across as fan boys, the people that are more circumspect come across as anti Ford. The truth is neither. We all want the same thing. I wish the way forward was clearer for all but I am not going to get it.

Hi HSE2

The Focus was far from a CKD project. There was significant local engineering requirements to make it work. Let's not forget that it was to get exported to other countries, and these being cheaper markets too. To make that work, they were required to engineer and source appropriately costed parts, local and elsewhere. The investment was huge. The project began to look pretty bad sometime ago, but the investigation of all aspects was still being looked into until very recently, so they did give it thorough investigation.

edit: forgot to mention another important point... the plants here are far from being hi-tech, flexible and complex. This also goes against the requirements of being able to make manufacturing efficiencies and savings. This is my exporting for Ford has been difficult to get over the line. Massive investment is required in the plants here to make it work.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Car companies essentially can’t work with any degree of confidence into the future like they used to. That 6 year cycle has really come in. It makes it hard and to have to constantly justify each movement in public.

The people that go in guns blazing with full support come across as fan boys, the people that are more circumspect come across as anti Ford. The truth is neither. We all want the same thing. I wish the way forward was clearer for all but I am not going to get it.

That's the biggest concern when I speak with engineers. There is no long term vision or commitment from management. Whether it be from Ford AUS, Ford US and Europe, the long term plan ends at about 4-5 years.

[JPFS1]

I think many here are also forgetting the real driver behind the ecoBoost I4T. Emissions.

Another bit of info... this engine is the first of the ecoBoost line of engines to enjoy Twin iVCT... ;)

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

I think many here are also forgetting the real driver behind the ecoBoost I4T. Emissions.

Another bit of info... this engine is the first of the ecoBoost line of engines to enjoy Twin iVCT... ;)

Can we expect the i6T to get an EcoBoost moniker, or will it just be called the i6T?

[Thankfull]

Who really cares about the difference in performance between European and Japanese diesels, or petrol for that matter?

Those countries do not have their own fuel reserves within their own territorys, like Australia does with LPG.

Look at the price of LPG in comparison to Petrol and Diesel now, now add a dollar to each price 5 years from now.

No Aussie is going to buy a petrol or diesel powered vehicle, with LPG on tap within Australias own territorial boundries......that is why Ford is building direct injection LPG Engines in Geelong from 2010.....

We are so lucky here......

[chevypower]

5 years from now, I hope we have fast charging batteries (2 minutes, for a range of 500-1000 kms), and that petrol, diesel, LPG, propane, CNG is all talk of the past.
Oh and if you added $1 to the price of each fuel, the one that would be most appealing would be the one that consumed the least. Which would be diesel at the moment. Because LPG typically uses the most, you have also added the highest percentage of increase to the price of the fuel, it would make it the least attractive of the lot.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Can we expect the i6T to get an EcoBoost moniker, or will it just be called the i6T?

I wouldn't expect so.

It's a completely different architecture and goes against the whole 1 Ford strategy.

If DI ever came to the IL6, it wouldn't be from the push of Ford US imho.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

If DI ever came to the IL6, it wouldn't from the push from Dearborn imho.

Lets say Euro5 I6 came with DI conservatively DI gets about a 10% saving in fuel usage. So coupled with the 6 speed you could potentially have a 9l/100 I6 also the higher reduction in Co2. Would be a good combination.....mind you the price would be a large factor in it being done.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Lets say Euro5 I6 came with DI conservatively DI gets about a 10% saving in fuel usage. So coupled with the 6 speed you could potentially have a 9l/100 I6 also the higher reduction in Co2. Would be a good combination.....mind you the price would be a large factor in it being done.

I hear what you're saying... and you are correct in that it would be a comparison of the costs to get IL6 to DI, with all the things that will go with it, testing, validation, increased cost of the more advanced/complex hardware, machining changes, ECU programming changes etc etc... the costs would be quite prohibitive. Compare that to the costs of shipping over the 3.5L DI ecoBoost with most of the validation, durability testing accounted for etc... .

The major costs associated with adopting ecoboost in Falcon is the crash program that would go with it and NVH... possibly the only saving that might apply if DI was to be tried on the IL6.

[BlackLS]

If the 4cyl Ecoboost is anything similar to the 2009 Mazda3 MPS, it's figures are 191kW @ 5500 rpm, 380Nm @ 3000rpm.

Looks to be a very similar output to the FG I6, with less weight - keeping in mind this is not to replace the I6

[Thankfull]

Originally Posted by chevypower

5 years from now, I hope we have fast charging batteries (2 minutes, for a range of 500-1000 kms), and that petrol, diesel, LPG, propane, CNG is all talk of the past.
Oh and if you added $1 to the price of each fuel, the one that would be most appealing would be the one that consumed the least. Which would be diesel at the moment. Because LPG typically uses the most, you have also added the highest percentage of increase to the price of the fuel, it would make it the least attractive of the lot.

What you have to remember is that the New LPG Engines....which are going to be built here, will be more fuel efficent and more Powerfull than they are now....so they will not be using as much fuel.

Also 5 years from now another say 20 million Chinese will be driving their own motor car....perhaps more...what ever the asking price for Oil becomes, when pressure is put on world supply by the Chinese economic monster....wont make any difference to LPG supply to Australia.

We have our own....we even export it China....Australian LPG engines in the meantime, will only become even more fuel efficent and even more powerfull.

Everybody relying on Petrol and Diesel, is going to end up paying a small fortune to run their 4 cylinder.....in comparison to cars running on home grown Aussie LPG.

It cannot be avoided.....Ford has already for seen the approaching economic reality of the World we live in.....

[Bossxr8]

Oil companies will jack up the price of LPG to follow the trend of petrol.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by Thankfull

The cost of Oil also has to be a consideration....Australia is a small player in the World market.
I was watching a show on Foxtel a little while back on the Automotive industry in China....awesome!

All the car companies are selling cars in China, and there are two Chinese manufacturers in the game as well.
One of them is punching out 240,000 vehicles a year, and only 4% of Chinas 1 Billion population owns a car.

The potential for just one Nation like China to draw on the remainder of our Worlds Oil reserves, could see Australians forced into using LPG because Australia cannot afford the cost of importing Oil in the same quantities as they are now....and Australia has big gas fields, and we sell a lot of LPG to China as well.

After seeing what is happening in China within the car industry, I am in no way surprised to see Ford building direct injection LPG engines for cars in Australia from next year, in Geelong according to the last news report I saw....

Cheers all

Originally Posted by Thankfull

When you look at what is happening globaly...the Chinese economy is growing into a monster....an...oil...consuming monster.

Remember all those thousands of Chinese you would see riding push bikes in the back ground, when viewing news reports about China on TV in years gone by....yea well they are now thousands upon thousands of Chinese driving motor cars now...with only a few push bikes to be seen now...and its happening all over China.

That emerging Chinese middle class....they all want to own their own car as well...just like us, only there are millions and millions, more of them, than there are of us.

Originally Posted by Thankfull

When you look at what is happening globaly...the Chinese economy is growing into a monster....an...oil...consuming monster.

Remember all those thousands of Chinese you would see riding push bikes in the back ground, when viewing news reports about China on TV in years gone by....yea well they are now thousands upon thousands of Chinese driving motor cars now...with only a few push bikes to be seen now...and its happening all over China.

That emerging Chinese middle class....they all want to own their own car as well...just like us, only there are millions and millions, more of them, than there are of us.

Somebody at Ford did their home work....by the middle of this Century we could very well see all localy produced cars made for the Australian market running on LPG. (Australia has big Gas Fields)

Unless ofcourse you want to buy an expensive 4 cylinder import that runs on petrol or diesel, which by then could be so expensive per litre, that it is beyond the budget of most working class Australians..........

Originally Posted by Thankfull

What you have to remember is that the New LPG Engines....which are going to be built here, will be more fuel efficent and more Powerfull than they are now....so they will not be using as much fuel.

Also 5 years from now another say 20 million Chinese will be driving their own motor car....perhaps more...what ever the asking price for Oil becomes, when pressure is put on world supply by the Chinese economic monster....wont make any difference to LPG supply to Australia.

We have our own....we even export it China....Australian LPG engines in the meantime, will only become even more fuel efficent and even more powerfull.

Everybody relying on Petrol and Diesel, is going to end up paying a small fortune to run their 4 cylinder.....in comparison to cars running on home grown Aussie LPG.

It cannot be avoided.....Ford has already for seen the approaching economic reality of the World we live in.....

Not sure if it's just me, but i think you may be trying to tell us something about China and LPG ?

I got lost after hearing there are too many Rabbits........

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Oil companies will jack up the price of LPG to follow the trend of petrol.

Hopefully by then there will be a breakthrough with Natural Gas for cars

But Thankfull is right...China's thirst for oil in the coming years is going to make car ownership very very expensive everywhere else. Perhaps even prohibitively so.

[Thankfull]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Not sure if it's just me, but i think you may be trying to tell us something about China and LPG ?

I got lost after hearing there are too many Rabbits........

A couple of years ago, former president Bill Clinton was doing a lecture tour of Australia concerning China.

By the Middle of this Century China will be the dominant Economic Super power of the Earth, its population which is now in excess of 1 Billion is becomming the biggest market on the Earth.

The day is comming when Australia will not be able to compete with China when it comes to demand for oil...it really is that simple.

Fortunately in Australia we have large Gas fields within our own territorial boundries....which means we do not have to sell LPG gas to Australian Citizens at World Parity price.....which would also make LPG un affordable for the average Australian motorists....with Petrol and Diesel already un affordable to the Australian Motoring public.

Australia is in the fortunate position of being able to sell LPG to China at World Parity price....but sell LPG to Australian motorists at below World Parity price, when Diesel and Petrol become too expensive for the Australian Motorist.....because it is our LPG....Australia does not have to Import LPG, like we have to import Oil.

[ChemicalHorizon]

Originally Posted by Thankfull

Australia is in the fortunate position of being able to sell LPG to China at World Parity price....but sell LPG to Australian motorists at below World Parity price, when Diesel and Petrol become too expensive for the Australian Motorist.....because it is our LPG....Australia does not have to Import LPG, like we have to import Oil.

This is key, and why North West Shelf must sell a certain percentage of ALL gas (gas is metered in chemical energy, or heating value) locally. I.e they cannot just expand the operation and sell it all overseas for 4x the price they get locally. A certain amount is reserved for local consumption.

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by Thankfull

power of the Earth, its population which is now in excess of 1 Billion is becomming the biggest market on the Earth.

China's economy is growing, and as such the economical change and impact will be felt throughout this growth. Affordability and as such demand will shift global trends.

However (and I am open to correction), China still has one child policy. Whilst it's economy will grow it's population base will not. Based on 1 child, the populas has a half life.

If the population decreases yet the economy grows the same demands are still placed on world resources.

It's not more people in China per say, but a broader base of the populas in a stronger economic position...

[chevypower]

So Ford has said the 2.0 EcoBoost will put out 205kw/380Nm. Ford Australia say 170kw/320Nm... I am thinking detuned in the Falcon, to not jeopardize sales of the 4.0 I-6. Pity if it is detuned.