people still buying holdens/hsv?

[graham7773]

Thia has been going on since the EH 179ci cars flogged the XP 170ci Falcons at Bathurst in 64-65. And it won't end with this thread.

[StrikeTwiceXR6]

[QUOTE=XW-221]Yeah don't bother mentioning how much torque they have.QUOTE]
This is exactly what I thought! The Falcon has class leading torque for crying out loud and leads the Commodore 6 by a fair margin when it comes to torque. I am yet to hear of a VE V6 running a 13.6 quarter, which is what has been achieved with an FG 6 with a few mods. The current FG when ran on 98 has a torque rating per litre engine capacity that rivals the good old boss The Commodore isn't quicker in stock form.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by XW-221

Yeah don't bother mentioning how much torque they have.QUOTE]
This is exactly what I thought! The Falcon has class leading torque for crying out loud and leads the Commodore 6 by a fair margin when it comes to torque. I am yet to hear of a VE V6 running a 13.6 quarter, which is what has been achieved with an FG 6 with a few mods. The current FG when ran on 98 has a torque rating per litre engine capacity that rivals the good old boss The Commodore isn't quicker in stock form.

Yeah because people buying an FG Falcon care about the 1/4 mile time... oh and they probably dont mod it either

[Wretched]

[QUOTE=StrikeTwiceXR6]

Originally Posted by XW-221

Yeah don't bother mentioning how much torque they have.QUOTE]
This is exactly what I thought! The Falcon has class leading torque for crying out loud and leads the Commodore 6 by a fair margin when it comes to torque. I am yet to hear of a VE V6 running a 13.6 quarter, which is what has been achieved with an FG 6 with a few mods. The current FG when ran on 98 has a torque rating per litre engine capacity that rivals the good old boss The Commodore isn't quicker in stock form.

Why should a family care about how much torque their family sedan has?
Should it be such a deal breaker if the car they buy has 5nm less than the falcon or even 30nm less? Really how many families (excluding the minority of enthusiasts) need a whole of torque to ferry off the kids to school and for the weekly shopping? This also brings along a whole other argument of with 'small' cars now giving reasonable size and power why the need for a large car?

Towing? bah i see more 4WDs, SUVs and 4x4 utes with tow bars than any sedan. Plus they're far more practical than a Falcodore.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Holden sells around 12,000 v8 Commodore ute/sedan/Sportwagons a year, the message in that
is that Commodore buyers and Falcon buyers are not the same demographic and that just copying
what Holden does is by no means a guarantee of successful falcon products.

Ford is better off establishing new markets for falcon based products, look at diesel Territory for one
and EcoLPI in sedans and Ute for another two, perhaps Ecoboost I-4 will also boost Falcon sales...

Not a V8 in sight and Ford still has the potential to sell so many Falcon based products, I'd say that's a great move...

Leave the V8s and Turbo sixes to the knuckle dragger mouth breathers at the drags, the buying public couldn't give a rats...

I for one find that last comment quite offensive. Not all owners of these vehicles fit in that category. Bit like saying all four cyl/ hybrid owners are tree huggigng save the planet raging greenies. When in fact they drive the car that they can afford and suits their purpose. The OP relates to all falcon holden variants, if you wish to bag perfomnce car owners stay in the 4 cly. forums. Better still go to GETUP forum where your veiws can be enjoyed by like minded individuals.

[blackf6]

i do love driving my falcon. for the engine, tha looks and the pedigree. But i have more fun in the twisty's driving the kenworth t401 at work. the falcon irs is skittish and not very good. and i agree that not enough people know about how good the engines are in the falcon range. just my opinion.

[RAPID_BA]

My point is that model for model, compare the ve with the fg and i struggle to see how you can buy a VE. the only chink in fords armour is no base v8.

Can anyone worth a pinch of salt say a ve omega is better than a falcon xt, a calais better than fairmont ghia (ok g6et) or gts better than coyote supercharged gt or even f6! You cant.

But people still buy holden/hsv?

[FPT]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Why should a family care about how much torque their family sedan has?
Should it be such a deal breaker if the car they buy has 5nm less than the falcon or even 30nm less? Really how many families (excluding the minority of enthusiasts) need a whole of torque to ferry off the kids to school and for the weekly shopping? This also brings along a whole other argument of with 'small' cars now giving reasonable size and power why the need for a large car?

Towing? bah i see more 4WDs, SUVs and 4x4 utes with tow bars than any sedan. Plus they're far more practical than a Falcodore.

He was replying to me, and I was replying to Brazen, who managed to only give half the info as well as incorrectly stating which had a better torque curve.

You're right, it's more than the overall figures. The overall drivability and efficiency is what matters most.

For the average motorist they can look passed this and go with whatever has the "popular" image, or being the best in their eyes, or fulfils the purpose.

The enthusiast owner does give consideration to such technical info, so you need to excuse that we sometimes carry on about this here, it is after all, an enthusiasts website.

The deal with this thread is a matter of perception to the majority of buyers. There needs to be incentive to sway the majority of new car buyers, be it economy, value, affordability, reliability, space etc. The topic of outright performance isn't on their list, nor is a torque curve.

The road back to the top for Ford has already begun as I sense a change in the way they're doing things, from better marketing, to having confidence and backing their products with significant chunks of dollars.

To Hulk, Ford isn't worried about being No1 in sales, their focus is having the No1 product.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

My point is that model for model, compare the ve with the fg and i struggle to see how you can buy a VE. the only chink in fords armour is no base v8.

Can anyone worth a pinch of salt say a ve omega is better than a falcon xt, a calais better than fairmont ghia (ok g6et) or gts better than coyote supercharged gt or even f6! You cant.

But people still buy holden/hsv?

Brand loyalty.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

My point is that model for model, compare the ve with the fg and i struggle to see how you can buy a VE. the only chink in fords armour is no base v8.

Can anyone worth a pinch of salt say a ve omega is better than a falcon xt, a calais better than fairmont ghia (ok g6et) or gts better than coyote supercharged gt or even f6! You cant.

But people still buy holden/hsv?

Im sorry but i cant argue with this, i think you are right on the mark here. Brand loyalty aside id find it very hard to pick the GM product.
Only one in that lot id choose over the Ford product (only after a long thought) is the GTS

[CANFRY]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

have you compared the 3.0L and even 3.6L holden VE against the ford I6 4.0?? Its feeble in that company, costs the same too.

Anyone who drives the ford i6 against the Holden 3.0 or 3.6 just cant ignore the torque and power of the I6. For the same money I stress.

Same goes for the FPV offering, drive them back to back against the HSV and its another no brainer. The Miami/Turbo i6 murders the HSV engine and yet its ignored by the public?

Have you even driven the i6 and the 3.6 commy because I Kno going up against my mates 6 speed sv6 2011 I've got no chance can't get any where near it, and when it comes to handleing the fg is like a boat compared to the ve

[Windsor342ci]

Great thread Hulk. A very diplomatic question asked for an interesting subject!

[CANFRY]

[QUOTE=StrikeTwiceXR6]

Originally Posted by XW-221

Yeah don't bother mentioning how much torque they have.QUOTE]
This is exactly what I thought! The Falcon has class leading torque for crying out loud and leads the Commodore 6 by a fair margin when it comes to torque. I am yet to hear of a VE V6 running a 13.6 quarter, which is what has been achieved with an FG 6 with a few mods. The current FG when ran on 98 has a torque rating per litre engine capacity that rivals the good old boss The Commodore isn't quicker in stock form.

6 speed manual both cars sv6 vs xr6 both 2011 model the xr6 won't get any where near it my mates sv6 eats my cousin fg 6 speed

[jjw]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

My point is that model for model, compare the ve with the fg and i struggle to see how you can buy a VE. the only chink in fords armour is no base v8.

Can anyone worth a pinch of salt say a ve omega is better than a falcon xt, a calais better than fairmont ghia (ok g6et) or gts better than coyote supercharged gt or even f6! You cant.

But people still buy holden/hsv?

but lots of people do think they are better (go to a holden forum and ask them) and the sales figures support it

[graham7773]

I like both fords and holdens but if GM gets serious about the LSA it's going to be very interesting. Indmar’s 6.2-liter LSA supercharged engine has a peak output of 540hp (403kw) and 540 foot-pounds of torque(718nm). And that's without any molestation by owners. Should be capable of ripping tyres right off their rims or at least turning them into large clouds of smoke. I hope the bottom end is good.

[FPT]

Originally Posted by Lu.14.nd

6 speed manual both cars sv6 vs xr6 both 2011 model the xr6 won't get any where near it my mates sv6 eats my cousin fg 6 speed

Your mate and your cousin are two different drivers, and who's to say your mate's car is stock.

A back to back test by professional drivers shows the SV6 was quicker in a straight line, but had it's ugly rear end handed to it by the less powerful XR6 on a track.

[beanbag]

ever since i was a teenager i wanted a holden but when i went to buy i not only test drove the sv6 but looked around at what else was about . after driving both the sv6 and the fg , the fg won , mind you it was the xr50 , but it drove better, had better vision , better interior styling , and imo better get up and boogie . so guess what, i bought the fg , i still remember thinking to myself when driving the sv6 , "why arent u as good as the ford" . i still love the look of the ve but i love my ford even more

[Cashie]

Having owned a VE SV6 and now a FG G6E I can tell you I MUCH prefer the FG engine and ZF gearbox. The 3.6 in the VE was boring, sounded *** and lacked character, whereas the 4.0 in the FG IMO is a far better drive.
The VE interior drove me to tears, the A-pillars are rediculous and the ride height was even higher than the FG (I did lower it though)..
Just checked my fuel economy on both, same driving, the SV6 averaged 10.2l/100km and the G6E is averaging 9.7l/100km.

I'm not biased to any maker, I only buy the car that best suits my needs and wants...

[XR6TCraig]

Ford are losing sales due to the line up ( or lack of) they have at present as well. No XR8. No replacement for the Super Pursuit ute.

A workmate of mine who currently owns an FG xr6T ute is looking to upgrade.

Loves the idea of the S/C 5ltr and this is what he wants. Went to the dealer and looked at the GS UTE, but thought it was a bit ordinary in terms of it taxi features. He'd like better brakes, a nicer interior. In short he's after a GT in ute form, just like the old Pursuit or Super Pursuits in the BA/BF series.

He told the dealer that the GS wasn't really what he was after and asked about the next model up with all of the fruit, only to be told that this is it unless you go to a sedan.

Now he's eyeing off a Maloo because FPV failed to offer the equivalent of the GT in a ute.

How many other potential xr8 or Super Pursuit buyers are they losing due to gaps in their line up?

Every potential lost sale due to this is probably another sale for Holden/HSV. Wake up Ford/FPV!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by GREGL

I for one find that last comment quite offensive. Not all owners of these vehicles fit in that category..

From what I've seen on the roads a lot do, behaving like arrogant bullies, Falcon and Holden alike.
Not a day goes by when I don't see a close call because some kid in an XR6T wants to race an SS..
The contempt these drivers show towards other vehicles is disappointing to say the least.
In my books both camps are as bad as each other, especially now that there are so many examples about
and costing so little in the second hand yards.

So yes, you have every right to feel offended.......

[XtRmn8]

As said many times over, the reason why the VE is doing so well is because of the broad range of models and engine combinations.

I think both have their strengths and weaknesses but overall I think the VE has the edge over the FG and that is why it is selling so well.

Personally I think the VE looks better on the road than the FG. Omege has a much better road presence and looks much more muscular. The Falcon in XT spec looks very ordinary at best and looks terrible from the rear, reminds me of AU each time I see one. I wont dribble on but I think the entire range looks better.

Ford has a great IL6 engine, but fitted to a car that not many like and limited to a sedan and ute only. The Ford V8 is out of reach for most as it is only available in a 60k FPV vs a Holden V8, which can be had for 43k new in SS spec.

I have driven the FG 6 and both SIDI 6's and for the normal city commute there is nothing between them. 98% of buyers will not be racing from 0-100kmh in peak hour city traffic so that fact that the FG IL6 is 1.5 seconds faster from 0-100 means SFA to the people who buy them.

[jpd80]

Short hand answer is that Commodore is selling more low and high series vehicles while SV6 and XR6 are pretty close...

[Ford_The_Win]

Who really cares though? Buy whatever car you want to buy and support whoever you want to support. As long as you are happy with your car and your purchase that is the most important thing. If I had just bought a new G6E, I would have done so because it was what I wanted and what I was happy with, I couldn't care less if a group of knuckle dragging bogans think their car is better than mine or not. Why does it matter? The fact is that both Falcon and Commodore are slowly dying a self-inflicted death, yes the Commodore still sells more than Falcon but it's sales are a shadow of what they used to be.

[theboxmike]

Meh all my mates drive Commodores (i drive a BA XR6). I remind them every time they break down which is quite often

Funny enough i used to be a Holden fan to when i was younger but ever since that 'Can't get enough of this" ad i fell in love with the BA and Ford. (i even got a Silver sedan BA XR6 like the one in the ad haha.

[2011G6E]

Is the base Omega "better" than a Falcon? No idea...and neither does the public know. The two Holden dealers we went to said they did have an Omega or two on the lot, but no one bought them...they were usually a "fleet" or business car...no one walked in off the street and bought a bog basic car like an Omega. Same at Ford...the guys there said they couldn't remember the last time anyone purposely asked for a base Falcon...a member of the public I mean...they mostly sold XR6's, and because of volumes, an XR6 was actually cheaper than ordering a base Falcon. Holden said the same about the SV6 and the Omega base model.

And yes...today, the vast majority of private buyers through the door don't care about engine size (beyond number of cylinders), or torque, or quarter mile times. Face it, car companies build for the masses, and we are just lucky that they decide to build a few interesting models for the small number of enthusaists that occasionally wander into the showroom. As long as a car is screwed together well, is comfortable and reliable, and doesn't burn too much fuel...why do you think that "it's just a bland lump of car" thing the Toyota Aurion sells so damn well?

[Angeldust]

its like arguing whther my hyundai is better then my mates daewoo...

pointless.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Ford are losing sales due to the line up ( or lack of) they have at present as well. No XR8. No replacement for the Super Pursuit ute.

A workmate of mine who currently owns an FG xr6T ute is looking to upgrade.

Loves the idea of the S/C 5ltr and this is what he wants. Went to the dealer and looked at the GS UTE, but thought it was a bit ordinary in terms of it taxi features. He'd like better brakes, a nicer interior. In short he's after a GT in ute form, just like the old Pursuit or Super Pursuits in the BA/BF series.

He told the dealer that the GS wasn't really what he was after and asked about the next model up with all of the fruit, only to be told that this is it unless you go to a sedan.

Now he's eyeing off a Maloo because FPV failed to offer the equivalent of the GT in a ute.

How many other potential xr8 or Super Pursuit buyers are they losing due to gaps in their line up?

Every potential lost sale due to this is probably another sale for Holden/HSV. Wake up Ford/FPV!

Well up until very recently FPV actually had Pursuits and Super Pursuits in their range and guess what.......they hardly sold any at all.

So why would they spend a huge amount of money making a new version of a model that no one was buying?

Are they not better off letting the tiny number of potential buyers either buy a GS/F6 or wander off to HSV and concentrating on making the core products, sedans, better faster gooder cheaper......

No one can be all things to all people and regardless of what FPV do there will ALWAYS be someone who wants something else.

Really, if he is that desperate he can buy a GS, fit a pursuit interior and even brembos from a wrecker of after market brakes.
I had a GT-P interior (cost $2400 off ebay) in my F6 from when it was about 2 months old until I sold it 3 years later (and then sold the interior for $2k)

[Seduce XR6]

The design of the chassis on the VE is simply better as in handling & ability to cope with some serious grunt, dont know why just based on years of reading about VE's & Falcons.

It did not show up until they stuck the coyote into it which many have said it cannot cope with, not me but many reviewers.

It needs a major overhaul on versions that have the Coyote V8, hell even if I push my XR6 I can feel its lack of ability when pushed, it is fine up to 8/ tenths or so but try & push it harder & it all falls apart, well feels like it lol

Apart from all that Holden market their product better.

Then Many Aussies see Holden as Australian & Ford as not, well not as Aussie.

And then as has been mentioned they have a V8 in there normal range.

I dont think the Commodore is better overall myself or I would own one & not a Ford however it is not as bad as many on here would lead others to believe.

[AMGC63]

Judging by the amount of "expert" comments here there must be allot of people here who have owned both a VE and FG...

[FGII-XR6]

this thread is like a dog chasing it's tail, going nowhere fast