Performance....where do we go from here?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Rodge

I wonder just a thought, can anyone think of a any 300KW plus full sized performance sedan under say 1750 kg's ?

M3 Sedan.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

M3 Sedan.

C63 too!!!!!!

I will concede though the M3 and C63 are mid sized cars.

[Burnout]

Hulk, lad, get into politics! You're a natural; I see all your arguments in support of your OP as a stark reminder of the same 'speak' put on our flickering B&W screens by the Minister for Transport in the days that killed the GT HO's, GTS's & the Pacers.

[Rodge]

An E63 AMG is a mid sized car but check out the weight of an S63 AMG.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes-benz-s63-amg.html
4785 pounds = 2170 kg's and lots of the panels are made from aluminium !!!

The F6 and SC FPV's are lightweights by comparison

Seriously though, sure DSC and Traction control and such like are highly useful techologies for helping keep high performance FPV's on the straight and narrow, but should we be relying on them or should there be some form of compulsory driver training for vehicles over say 300 kw's ? Make a couple of track days training a mandatory part of the purchase process perhaps ?

[Grunter]

Stock GTHO = 14.2
Stock FPV S/C GT = 12.7

1.5 second difference doesn't seem a huge difference over 40 years to me.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Grunter

Stock GTHO = 14.2
Stock FPV S/C GT = 12.7

1.5 second difference doesn't seem a huge difference over 40 years to me.

You have to factor in we went backwards after the HO. What was the quickest Ford in the 80s and 90s? EB and EL GTs would be lucky to do a low 15.

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

But at full noise the 400rwkw modified FG GT will hit a wall at an extra 100km/h compared to your 83 thunderbird. Its not the car, its the gooses we allow behind the steering wheel that will make them dangerous missiles.

Why else did they put a stop to it in the 70s? Japan introduce a ceiling of 206kw?

thats why there are road rules...

you said it yourself, its not the car, its the goose behind the wheel.

so why target the car?

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Grunter

Stock GTHO = 14.2
Stock FPV S/C GT = 12.7

1.5 second difference doesn't seem a huge difference over 40 years to me.

big fatty is up 3 or 400kg and slightly more refined as well...

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Grunter

Stock GTHO = 14.2
Stock FPV S/C GT = 12.7

1.5 second difference doesn't seem a huge difference over 40 years to me.

Strictly speaking if we go off the same magazine test methods is more like a second difference.. GT is 13 second car in the hands of magazines using their test methods. but i agree entirely with your point..

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

thats why there are road rules...

you said it yourself, its not the car, its the goose behind the wheel.

so why target the car?

Exactly, if there isnt a 'goose' behind the wheel then the chances of it 'hitting the wall faster' are much less.

Its been posted by numerous people on this forum over the years and in this thread.
'Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars'

[Carby]

Originally Posted by flappist

The greatest problem is that it is impossible to make a falcon or commodore for that matter into a performance vehicle.

A performance car needs to carry 1-2 people very quickly.....that is all.

.....

Thats a very simplistic and way too narrow definition on what a performance car can be. What you are suppositioning is that only the "elite" cars of the world are genuine performance cars. That leaves out things like the M3 and M5 and for that matter the F6 and GT, these cars are all performance cars, obviously not to the level of the Ferrari's and Lambo's but they are definitely not mainstream nor "garden" variety cars by any stretch of the imagination.

[EFFalcon]

depends on what one person considers performance.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Why would you want it to happen on a grand scale, I thought we were talking performance.

ie FPV

It is a grand scale. Change things as basic as construction materials etc will require crash testing etc. Millions of dollars

[dimka100]

People keep calling the M5 or the C63 as elite cars, please STOP as these cars are not. Just because these cars are seen as expensive in Australia it does not make them elite in any shape or form. These cars are in fact normal quality saloons that are driven by people living in other developed countries of this world who are on the same level of income as those who live in Australia and drive new HSVs/FPVs.

The reality is that it’s very hard to turn a family saloon into a Performance car simply due to the basic laws of physics. The sheer size, mass, weight distribution, saloon body limitations, and other factors have all a very negative impact on the performance characteristics of a vehicle. The German makers use a lot of technology to try an overcome these limitations in order to make the M5/C63 and other similar cars feel like a Real Performance car. Unfortunately for us, Australian car manufacturers do not have access/funds/whatever other reasons to implement such technology in the models available for us to buy here in Australia and hence the difference in performance terms only between the M5/C63 vs say an GT/F6/GTS is very significant, especially in the areas that are most technology dependant such as handling.

Straight line speed is not so hard to achieve, and can be done by substituting capacity and reduction in efficiency to produce the desired power levels required to achieve the targeted performance. Hence why in that in that area Australian cars are not so lacking say compared to handling …

Originally Posted by Carby

Thats a very simplistic and way too narrow definition on what a performance car can be. What you are suppositioning is that only the "elite" cars of the world are genuine performance cars. That leaves out things like the M3 and M5 and for that matter the F6 and GT, these cars are all performance cars, obviously not to the level of the Ferrari's and Lambo's but they are definitely not mainstream nor "garden" variety cars by any stretch of the imagination.

[Rodge]

Can't believe Trev hasn't bought up the Porsche GT3 yet, a real performance car right but the truth is for as long as the european distributors continue to scalp us alive with their ludicrous and extortionant pricing, they're not in the frame for the vast majority of punters wanting a fast car.

FG2 F6 will most likely have more than 310 Kw's, HSV are / will be supercharging their V8, FPV will respond by intercooling and tweaking the boost in their SC V8 and so on.

Whether we like it or not, we're in the middle of another power war between FPV and HSV. FPV havn't lead the race for many many years and now that they do they won't want to give away that marketing edge easily and the fact is they could easily badge their SC cars 355 instead of 335 without changing the existing tune.

[RedHotGT]

After reading all the posts here, I found that I had to return to the OP to remember exactly what it was we are talking about...

Yes - these days straight line speed, and kw/nm figures are very impressive... But I feel that the danger factor is actually with the driver assistance that the car provides (ABS, ESC, ESP, DSC, LSD, WTF etc) making a fairly untrained driver overly confident that they know how to hurtle their 300kw 1700kg weapon around the street like their favourite race driver...

So - where will the increase in power and 1/4 mile times end?? Who knows... But I would think that there will only be gradual improvements from here on in...

I have pondered a similar question with the Olympic 100m Sprint.
Logically, there has to be a point where the 100mm cannot be run by a man ANY faster - right? Otherwise eventually with gradual increases (lets say on average 0.1 sec per year) then in 20 years they will be 2 seconds faster? Impossible....

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by loftie

After reading all the posts here, I found that I had to return to the OP to remember exactly what it was we are talking about...

Yes - these days straight line speed, and kw/nm figures are very impressive... But I feel that the danger factor is actually with the driver assistance that the car provides (ABS, ESC, ESP, DSC, LSD, WTF etc) making a fairly untrained driver overly confident that they know how to hurtle their 300kw 1700kg weapon around the street like their favourite race driver...

So - where will the increase in power and 1/4 mile times end?? Who knows... But I would think that there will only be gradual improvements from here on in...

I have pondered a similar question with the Olympic 100m Sprint.
Logically, there has to be a point where the 100mm cannot be run by a man ANY faster - right? Otherwise eventually with gradual increases (lets say on average 0.1 sec per year) then in 20 years they will be 2 seconds faster? Impossible....

law of diminishing returns.... however it depends what evolution has in store for us :P

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Can't believe Trev hasn't bought up the Porsche GT3 yet, a real performance car right but the truth is for as long as the european distributors continue to scalp us alive with their ludicrous and extortionant pricing, they're not in the frame for the vast majority of punters wanting a fast car.

FG2 F6 will most likely have more than 310 Kw's, HSV are / will be supercharging their V8, FPV will respond by intercooling and tweaking the boost in their SC V8 and so on.

Whether we like it or not, we're in the middle of another power war between FPV and HSV. FPV havn't lead the race for many many years and now that they do they won't want to give away that marketing edge easily and the fact is they could easily badge their SC cars 355 instead of 335 without changing the existing tune.

GT3 is an Awesome looking machine, problem is that the original ones are only just now starting to get into a reasonable sort of price range (<$100,000) but they are close to 10 years old (some of them) and I assume you could be talking up to $50,000 for a replacement engine if it blew.

I thought HSV had ruled out any engine power increases until at least 2013?

And I doubt FPV will increase the *actual* power of the GT's until such time as they can sort out the driveline enough that it can survive the power while meeting Ford standards.

[Chopped]

Electric motors and new light weight composite materials will make the cars made from steel and combustion engines seem ancient and stupid.

The era of combustion engines in passenger cars is coming to an end.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Electric motors and new light weight composite materials will make the cars made from steel and combustion engines seem ancient and stupid.

The era of combustion engines in passenger cars is coming to an end.

They are magnificent in theory, but in practice at the moment and into the short term future the infrastructure is simply not there.

IC's will be around for some time yet dont worry.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by Polyal

They are magnificent in theory, but in practice at the moment and into the short term future the infrastructure is simply not there.

IC's will be around for some time yet dont worry.

I reckon we will be the last generation to have them.
When we are old we can tell our grandkids about the cars that used to be made from steel and use petrol, they will probably think "how effing boring!"

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

GT3 is an Awesome looking machine, problem is that the original ones are only just now starting to get into a reasonable sort of price range (<$100,000) but they are close to 10 years old (some of them) and I assume you could be talking up to $50,000 for a replacement engine if it blew.

I thought HSV had ruled out any engine power increases until at least 2013?

And I doubt FPV will increase the *actual* power of the GT's until such time as they can sort out the driveline enough that it can survive the power while meeting Ford standards.

$50,000 would probably be the deposit required prior to shipping a replacement GT3 engine There's a reason 10 year old euro's are less outrageously priced, parts prices are higher than the moon and they're horrendously expensive to keep on the road.

Yeah it'll be some time before HSV up's the ante on the power stakes, but it'll happen and then FPV will respond e.t.c. e.t.c.

Power wars play out in slow motion.
Personally I thought my 2007 BF2 Typhoon offically rated at 270 kw's standard had all the power you could realistically use and PLENTY more besides and still feel this was plenty, but time moves on and I guess we call that progress. I'm inclined to think the rate of KW increase for HSV / FPV cars will slow in the future but who knows.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Chopped

I reckon we will be the last generation to have them.
When we are old we can tell our grandkids about the cars that used to made from steel and use petrol, they will probably think "how effing boring!"

Perhaps, who knows, no dount a "new" source of oil will be found when we start running out and the companies have charged us $5L in the interim.

I could see myself quite easily living with an electric vehicle for daily chores and a nice gas guzzler for the weekend.

[Angeldust]

600 hp will probably the 'streetable' limit

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Perhaps, who knows, no dount a "new" source of oil will be found when we start running out and the companies have charged us $5L in the interim.

I could see myself quite easily living with an electric vehicle for daily chores and a nice gas guzzler for the weekend.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...ssan_leaf.html

My wife is pretty keen on replacing her hybrid with one of these in due course. I hope it comes with adjustable memory seats so I can borrow it from time to time.

[Polyal]

Rodge I just finished an uni assignment on the Leaf, they are a good thing if you buy it for the right reasons and you fit the criteria.

Id have one, but my daily commute is 220kms....so i wont even make it one way..LOL

[Rodge]

Yeah most of our trips are under 20 km's, so we should be okay even with the way I drive and the SC uses about a gazzlion litres per 100 km's in short trips, hence i'm hoping for the adjustable memory seats but will she let me borrow her shopping basket ? 80% of N.Z's electricity comes from hydro so if the numbers stack up we could be an early adopter. Wife's a bit of a greenie so I know she'll be happy with it. Maybe electric weekday cars / gas guzzlers for the weekend will be a common theme in the future ?

[dimka100]

Electric motors have a far greater potential theoretically speaking than the internal combustion engine … especially if there is a little suit case sized nuclear reactor stuck at the back of it

Originally Posted by Polyal

Rodge I just finished an uni assignment on the Leaf, they are a good thing if you buy it for the right reasons and you fit the criteria.

Id have one, but my daily commute is 220kms....so i wont even make it one way..LOL

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Carby

Thats a very simplistic and way too narrow definition on what a performance car can be. What you are suppositioning is that only the "elite" cars of the world are genuine performance cars. That leaves out things like the M3 and M5 and for that matter the F6 and GT, these cars are all performance cars, obviously not to the level of the Ferrari's and Lambo's but they are definitely not mainstream nor "garden" variety cars by any stretch of the imagination.

You are missing my point. The FPV falcons and HSVs are constained by their base platform whereas the M3s etc are not just base models with a few bits bolted on.

Many of the things that make a falcon good as a family vehicle hinder it as a performance vehicle.
Please note performance includes stopping, cornering, reliability at speed as well as straight line accelleration.

If you hammer a FPV on a track (or closed road) you will run out of brakes, boil the diff and trans, overheat the intake/intercooler and indeed the engine fairly quickly.
10-15 laps of QR or Lakeside is about all it takes to run one out of puff.

On the other hand a M3 et al. will play all day as they have been designed from the ground up to go fast for long periods.

This is first hand experience not something I read on the net......

[XRDeeze]

even p - plater drivers can drive cars with a bit of power , (200kw max) I cant drive an 95ish EL XR8 but can drive my na XR6 and when u floor it ...goes like the wind....sort of. But surely there something wrong with that