Ford gear box's in all V8 race cars ????? - Page 3

gtxb67 · 15-10-2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

Then, shock horror, LET OTHER MANUFACTURERS COMPETE! it's boring otherwise! Can't people see this?
I see photos from the old days with cossies, GT falcons(bloody real ones), tough holdens and GTR skylines in them. Imagine how much more entertaining those races would have been?

i saw those races at the track and also on tv, and believe me, they were not as exciting as the highlights or still photos suggest. as far as lack of competition goes, from 73 until 92, there was only 7 times when a ford or holden did not win the championship. it is worth noting that 6 of those wins for different cars were in the most disliked class of atcc racing australia has had. there may have been more cars, but the racing was boring - too quiet, bmw's, volvo's and nissan's dominating . . . . no one wanted it, that is why v8 supercars were born. we had a huge variety of cars when the 2 litres were beside the 5 litres and guess what, no one wanted them
in the old group c days, there were mazda's, bmw's, nissan's along with smaller class cars, but guess what. none were competitive and it was boring - much more so, than it is today

the racing has never been as competitive or well funded as it is today. sure it is biased towards holden (at bathurst anyway) and more so to hrt. it is more for entertainment than racing nowadays, but that makes the racing more exciting . . . the results are more contrived, but the racing is much better than it has ever been

AMGC63 · 15-10-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i saw those races at the track and also on tv, and believe me, they were not as exciting as the highlights or still photos suggest. as far as lack of competition goes, from 73 until 92, there was only 7 times when a ford or holden did not win the championship. it is worth noting that 6 of those wins for different cars were in the most disliked class of atcc racing australia has had. there may have been more cars, but the racing was boring - too quiet, bmw's, volvo's and nissan's dominating . . . . no one wanted it, that is why v8 supercars were born. we had a huge variety of cars when the 2 litres were beside the 5 litres and guess what, no one wanted them
in the old group c days, there were mazda's, bmw's, nissan's along with smaller class cars, but guess what. none were competitive and it was boring - much more so, than it is today

Completely agree, it's easy in retrospect to look back fondly but the reality of group c and a was hatred and completely 1 sided racing which caused V8SC as we know it!

XRtowcar · 15-10-2011, 05:23 PM

Problem with Group C at the time as i remember it was that Cams decided what performance items could be fitted to cars to try to balance performance.
Remember Dick whingey about the Commodores being quicker so all Falcons got massive tyres. Moff saying he wasn't quick enough so he got Fuel Injection. Brockeys car didn't handle so he got Watts link on the VH commodore.
The rule changing caused an inbalance in comparitive performance until someone else had a whinge.
Still prefer it to current V8 Stupercars.

gtxb67 · 15-10-2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Problem with Group C at the time as i remember it was that Cams decided what performance items could be fitted to cars to try to balance performance.
Remember Dick whingey about the Commodores being quicker so all Falcons got massive tyres. Moff saying he wasn't quick enough so he got Fuel Injection. Brockeys car didn't handle so he got Watts link on the VH commodore.
Still prefer it to current V8 Stupercars.

yes, they all lied and sandbagged to get what they wanted . . . . and still no one could beat the commodore. holden won 6 of the last 7 group c bathursts, and might have won all 7 had the xd been homologated at the correct weight and not the weight of the 6 cylinder model. the competition was fierce . . . not

pottery beige · 15-10-2011, 05:43 PM

to all the superduper car haters..
go back to the fact racers and have a..
REALLY GOOD WHINGE HOW SLOW THEY ARE...

SteveJH · 15-10-2011, 10:12 PM

You cannot tell me that this looks slow.

PHANTMXR6 · 15-10-2011, 10:16 PM

That's not comparing apples with apples. It might look fast, but it looked like the car had a lot of suspension travel as well.

Bit hard to compare with the Conrod straight of old and the Chase of new.

pottery beige · 15-10-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

You cannot tell me that this looks slow.

sorry.. but it looked like nana getting up to go to the toilet......

SteveJH · 15-10-2011, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHANTMXR6

That's not comparing apples with apples. It might look fast, but it looked like the car had a lot of suspension travel as well.

Bit hard to compare with the Conrod straight of old and the Chase of new.

Looks like minimal aero compared to the cars that race today though.

And how can you say no to the screaming V12?

SteveJH · 15-10-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottery beige

sorry.. but it looked like nana getting up to go to the toilet......

2:18 around the old track (pre-chase) would abe around the same as what the V8 Utes do now? Think the ute lap record is around 2:30.

(remember this was 26 years ago)

IMO, category minimum weight, category maximum HP, category maximum tyre width.

Not sure what you'd do about aero?

I like the idea of sports sedans, but don't like that they can use blocks from other manufacturers and that some of the cars are spaceframe chassis with panels bolted on top.

AMGC63 · 15-10-2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

You cannot tell me that this looks slow.

12 seconds a lap slower and that's without the chase so probably well over 20 seconds a lap slower... Night and Day.
We currently have a 2 second split from fastest to slowest in the field.. Qualifying positions come down to 1/100th of a second, in Group C there were often multiple "seconds" from 1 place to the next not 1/100th a single second...
V8SC is a science.

pottery beige · 15-10-2011, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMGC63

V8SC is a science.

thats where i'm at.. they're the ultimate of their breed..

so why all the haters....

SteveJH · 15-10-2011, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottery beige

thats where i'm at.. they're the ultimate of their breed..

so why all the haters....

Because there is no variety in the cars? Because the engines they use are based on engines that have been out of production for 10 years?

pottery beige · 15-10-2011, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Because there is no variety in the cars? Because the engines they use are based on engines that have been out of production for 10 years?

its called being awesome at what you've got...

whats next i hate Top Fuelers because they all long and skinny....

AMGC63 · 15-10-2011, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Because there is no variety in the cars? Because the engines they use are based on engines that have been out of production for 10 years?

But does it really matter? im all about the spectical and racing.. i love motorsport, the shape of the car and badge on the grill means less to me these days... I love the speed of these cars and the fact every car in the field is within a 2 seconds of each other, it means damn close racing.

The series has evolved from a manufacturer based series to team based series, the tribalisation has evolved into team v team, driver v driver, the manufacturer rivalry is fading...

gtxb67 · 15-10-2011, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

And how can you say no to the screaming V12?

i can - and many others did as well

they tried that formula and no one liked it. in fact the whole world did not like it. virtually the whole world had group a and now none of the major series use it anymore

production cars cannot be used for racing. with factory backing the road car versions were becoming too fast back in the early 70's - and now with the global financial situation no manufacturers can afford to pump millions of dollars into an irrelevant touring car series. they will either be too fast or send the manufacturers broke. either way, one manufacturer will generally end up dominating and then people will whinge about something else

considering how small the market is in australia - neither ford or holden can afford to develop cars for racing use. the return is not there. the series we have now is one of the best in the world. it is far from perfect, but that doesn't mean it is one hell of a lot better than the btcc and the dtm. there is no comparison at all

gtxb67 · 15-10-2011, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

(remember this was 26 years ago)

i know because i saw these cars live. and bathurst/sandown in the 70's, 80's and 90's. this is the best we have had it . . . . period

XRtowcar · 16-10-2011, 09:15 PM

The car is certainly the best race car sedan type race car period.
The racing is what i'd debate.

gtxb67 · 16-10-2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

The racing is what i'd debate.

i guess it depends on what you consider racing. processional or not, many of the v8 supercar races have close finishes. not many of the group c ones did. certainly not the endurance events. the group a days were absolutely boring (particularly with the hour long races), so i do not see how anyone can look back and think it was more exciting

having said that, at least you saw some of the races you are remembering so fondly and are not just going by old photos and videos that make everything look so much better

FPVGT500 · 16-10-2011, 11:49 PM

Funny because they still have old school live rear axles......

Ryan · 17-10-2011, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i saw those races at the track and also on tv, and believe me, they were not as exciting as the highlights or still photos suggest. as far as lack of competition goes, from 73 until 92, there was only 7 times when a ford or holden did not win the championship. it is worth noting that 6 of those wins for different cars were in the most disliked class of atcc racing australia has had. there may have been more cars, but the racing was boring - too quiet, bmw's, volvo's and nissan's dominating . . . . no one wanted it, that is why v8 supercars were born. we had a huge variety of cars when the 2 litres were beside the 5 litres and guess what, no one wanted them
in the old group c days, there were mazda's, bmw's, nissan's along with smaller class cars, but guess what. none were competitive and it was boring - much more so, than it is today

the racing has never been as competitive or well funded as it is today. sure it is biased towards holden (at bathurst anyway) and more so to hrt. it is more for entertainment than racing nowadays, but that makes the racing more exciting . . . the results are more contrived, but the racing is much better than it has ever been

Agreed 100%. Most people only talk about the positives in regards to group C/A, but rarely the negatives. Truth be told back in those days I was too young to remember it in full, but I can't imagine it was the grand spectacle week in and week out.

Sure the V8SCs get a bit boring at times and the placement of rules can kind of water down the excitement, but nothing can be perfect. We saw one of the best conclusions to Bathurst in terms of fighting for a win in a very long time last weekend. I can recall several good battles from the last 12 months too.

PHANTMXR6 · 17-10-2011, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPVGT500

Funny because they still have old school live rear axles......

What's funny about that?

It's part of the rules. Like it or lump it, rules are rules.

Is it also funny that there is a human behind the wheel......and they have to change their own gears??

This thread did start out with a question about the gearbox in the current v8supercars didn't it?

FPVGT500 · 17-10-2011, 08:26 AM

Its because i always thought they had an IRS until i found out

XRtowcar · 17-10-2011, 12:30 PM

I must be getting old or something (Dont answer that).
I wouldn't mind so much if they just called the things Sports Sedans and stopped pushing the Ford/Holden rivalry thing because they aren't a Ford or a Holden.
They are a specially fabricated race chassis that never saw the inside of Broadmeadows or Elizabeth plants.
Even the GEARBOX is a race item.
I guess while they can still fool the man in the street, they will continue down the same path.
Racing can be exciting, and it is bloody fast for a large car.
I wonder if it would be less exciting to have production based cars again.
V8 utes provides close racing too.

ltd · 17-10-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Because there is no variety in the cars? Because the engines they use are based on engines that have been out of production for 10 years?

No, the American 5 litre SVO motor is still in production, and is available as a crate motor here.
Further, the new 5 litre alloy motor now features on the GT, GT-P and GT-E cars here.

Heck, I've even been to the Homebush race a couple of years ago with one of the team sponsors, and saw a Holden car with the SVO rocker covers on it. I asked one of the mechanics why it had a ford motor in it, he said they were just borrowing the rocker covers from another team as they cracked both of theirs in a pit incident.

dimka100 · 17-10-2011, 04:10 PM

Totally agree, V8SC are becoming very boring to watch … there is just no variety there at all … and this is not just down to the category only being two manufacturers, but also from the technological perspective the sport has fallen out of date.

If you look at V8 supper cars they are just not getting any faster at all, the engines have not changed for ages, the suspension is all the same, the aero is all the same … the only rule changes I’m seeing are rules to do with safety cars, qualifying, pit stops, and other such rubbish that nobody really cares about …

As for the other manufacturers … both Ford/Holden can’t take on competition … and the GTR is a perfect example of how a real race car decimates a so called race car … with the new GTR or anything similar, well we all know how that will end … and I doubt Holden’s/Ford’s marketing departments would approve of that ….

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

I've always thought that V8SC is a crock. I'm sick of the field being only Holden and ford, there's barely any competition any more.
Bring back the production cars! F6, GT SC, R8, GTS, deck them out with proper safety gear and a few tweaks but otherwise they will be the same engined cars used on the road. Then, shock horror, LET OTHER MANUFACTURERS COMPETE! it's boring otherwise! Can't people see this?
I see photos from the old days with cossies, GT falcons(bloody real ones), tough holdens and GTR skylines in them. Imagine how much more entertaining those races would have been?
Instead we are stuck with "Holden" and "ford" cars that have barely anything to do with their road going brothers and a crowd of dimwitted bogans who think these cars are actually similiar to their road going cars.
And they wonder why die hard fans of racing like myself are switching off the tv and not watching? Because it's boring. Lap after lap of boredom.

SteveJH · 17-10-2011, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

No, the American 5 litre SVO motor is still in production, and is available as a crate motor here.
Further, the new 5 litre alloy motor now features on the GT, GT-P and GT-E cars here.

And i'm fairly sure the new 5L engine has absolutely nothing in common with the old 5L engine (they don't even have the same capacity)

Quote:

Heck, I've even been to the Homebush race a couple of years ago with one of the team sponsors, and saw a Holden car with the SVO rocker covers on it. I asked one of the mechanics why it had a ford motor in it, he said they were just borrowing the rocker covers from another team as they cracked both of theirs in a pit incident.

Don't both engines run the same/similar cylinder heads?

AMGC63 · 17-10-2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

And i'm fairly sure the new 5L engine has absolutely nothing in common with the old 5L engine (they don't even have the same capacity)

Correct, they are totally different engines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Don't both engines run the same/similar cylinder heads?

The V8SC Holden/HMS engine runs a rocker cover similar to the BBC and the Ford V8SC runs a cleveland rocker cover.

Similar style head in port and chamber but totally different rocker covers..

**ebxr8240** · 18-10-2011, 01:20 PM

The 8.2 Boss motor is the Windsor push-rod engine...
Funny thing is it's cylinder bore is the shorter length same as
289 blocks..The Dart block is similar but aftermarket...
All Windsor gear will fit the 8.2 deck block...
Four bolt on center three mains..
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Product-Line/Ford-Racing-Boss-302-Engine-Blocks/?Ns=Rank|Asc&rsview=SKU

TheSneakiness · 18-10-2011, 01:47 PM

Just wait til COF starts, the only difference will be the badge on the grill.

How successful is NASCAR again?