Ford: V8 time is over - Page 3

Falcman0o7 · 03-07-2012, 03:48 AM

2 litre donk is a 460 big block to them euros!

chevypower · 03-07-2012, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

2 litre donk is a 460 big block to them euros!

No kidding, my cousin came over from England and asked if my F-150 had a 3 litre engine. He almost passed out and went into shock when I said it has a 5.4 V8. Then I educated him on big blocks and large diesels.

chevypower · 03-07-2012, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

No, most of the development on common rail was done by Caterpillar, who don't make petrol engines for passenger cars. Others followed and major advances were made.

Common rail injection was developed by Bosch. Caterpillar was one of many manufacturers that implemented the technology.

KIWI-1 · 03-07-2012, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Common rail injection was developed by Bosch. Caterpillar was one of many manufacturers that implemented the technology.

Saying "Common rail injection was developed by Bosch" is a bit like saying Ford developed the V8...

Vickers used common rail in WWI submarines, 80 years before Bosch bought common rail technology from Fiat in the 1990s. Cat worked with Isuzi on high pressure to reduce and meet Euro 4? emmissions requirements.

KIWI-1 · 03-07-2012, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

They are going to make the push with name EcoBoost not synonymous with the size of the engine. They want the cars to be matched with the engine and the word EcoBoost only on the bums. Not a 4, nor 6. In the marketing they want to concentrate on the fact that this car does 'what ever'. NOT because it is a 4 cylinder or 6 or what ever.

So no more G6, XR6, XR8 badges then? That's about as clever as calling the GLi a Forte so the punters wouldn't know they were taxis and fleet. Yeah right!

chevypower · 03-07-2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Saying "Common rail injection was developed by Bosch" is a bit like saying Ford developed the V8...

Vickers used common rail in WWI submarines, 80 years before Bosch bought common rail technology from Fiat in the 1990s. Cat worked with Isuzi on high pressure to reduce and meet Euro 4? emmissions requirements.

I would say that saying Cat invented the CRD is like saying Ford invented the V8. Ah, where would we be without good old Wikipedia hey?

jpd80 · 03-07-2012, 07:57 AM

Common Rail is not where the technology ends, it's what's been done with it that's so magical.
Electronic injectors with multiple firing patterns for one have made huge jumps in emission profiles.

So one company inventing the system is one thing but who actually takes that idea a step further
and fully develops the true potential...well they should get the credit too and that why the Ford
flat head v8 gets recognition for being so widely produced because of its low cost design...

OzJavelin · 03-07-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Bit of a dumb statement by the guy from Ford Europe, when was the last time they sold anything with a V8 in it? Especially in numbers greater than more than a handful. They may have sold a few Mustangs with low volume compliance but bar that I cannot think of anything that Ford of Europe has ever done with a V8.

Mr Fraser is probably old enough to remember the heady days of English Ford V8s with the Pilot ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pilot

Quote:

..most Pilots were fitted with a more generously powered 3622 cc, 90 hp (67 kW) sidevalve V8

(although I personally thought they all had the 60hp engine .. not the 90hp .. so there you go?)

Maybe this is why he's not overly enthusiastic about V8s ..

aussie muscle · 03-07-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad_Pom

I don't think the article was saying no more V8s. I think the message was no large scale investment in an all new V8.

Ford europe don't HAVE to develop a V8. if they need one, they can always buy them off mercedes.

We should have our niche v8 platform so long as usa doesn't follow the same path.

chevypower · 03-07-2012, 08:24 AM

@jpd80, Agreed 10 yrs ago, a CRD 3.0 put out around 120kw/400Nm. Which was a lot more powerful than pre-CRD 85kw/320Nm. Now they put around 180-200kw/550-600Nm (with the exception of BMW's tri-turbo diesel).

fordAU · 03-07-2012, 08:33 AM

Interesting reading the varied opinions on this one and I hate to say it but this Fraser fellow is stating the bleeding obvious.

I don't like it but the V8 is dead, there is no future in petrol even though there are still vast quantities left, and I suggest the 6 will also be a thing of the past.

Energy is becoming more expensive, and that relates directly to transport, we will be in 20 years time be driving electric cars.
Electicity will be very expensive,petrol will be dirt cheap due to little demand, funny world we live in and our V8's will be museum pieces.

chevypower · 03-07-2012, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordAU

don't like it but the V8 is dead, there is no future in petrol even though there are still vast quantities left, and I suggest the 6 will also be a thing of the past.

I just test drove the next car for my wife. Hyundai Sonata 2.0T (GTDI). 270HP/270lb-ft @ 1800 rpm. That's about 200kw/365Nm. After driving it, it left me absolutely zero desire to have a V6 instead (which she currently has). That Sonata is a seriously quick car.

KIWI-1 · 03-07-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

I would say that saying Cat invented the CRD is like saying Ford invented the V8. Ah, where would we be without good old Wikipedia hey?

You might get it right!

RASER · 03-07-2012, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Common rail injection was developed by Bosch. Caterpillar was one of many manufacturers that implemented the technology.

No, CommonRail was developed by Fiat Group, they also where the first in the world to use it, on a AlfaRomeo 156.

Fiat Group where also the first in the world with direct injection diesel, fitted to the Croma model

Fiat Group sold it to Bosch as they needed the dough, they had no choice, but they learnt and they will not be selling the MultiAir to anybody

Germans do the talk, Italians actually do it!

RASER · 03-07-2012, 10:39 AM

Not a hope in hell will the V8 die.

Mustang will always have a V8, infact it now has the most powerful and fastest ever made recently fitted.

Same with GM, who actually have the finest mass-produced V8 on the planet, coming out with direct injection and a few other goodies by years end for 2013 production.

And yes the GENV has 2 valves per cylinder and push rods, its a tiny block sized v DOHC jobs, lacks nothing in performance/size/MPG/price etc ratio, infact it cant be beat

KIWI-1 · 03-07-2012, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Common Rail is not where the technology ends, it's what's been done with it that's so magical.
Electronic injectors with multiple firing patterns for one have made huge jumps in emission profiles.

So one company inventing the system is one thing but who actually takes that idea a step further
and fully develops the true potential...well they should get the credit too and that why the Ford
flat head v8 gets recognition for being so widely produced because of its low cost design...

True, and this was precisely my point way back in this thread. The diesel engine community made huge advances in the late 90's, the gearbox designers in the 00's and now the same is happening with small (mostly 3 and 4 cylinder) petrol engines... but not V8s.

mik · 03-07-2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordAU

Interesting reading the varied opinions on this one and I hate to say it but this Fraser fellow is stating the bleeding obvious.

I don't like it but the V8 is dead, there is no future in petrol even though there are still vast quantities left, and I suggest the 6 will also be a thing of the past.

Energy is becoming more expensive, and that relates directly to transport, we will be in 20 years time be driving electric cars.
Electicity will be very expensive,petrol will be dirt cheap due to little demand, funny world we live in and our V8's will be museum pieces.

perhaps, but i seem to remember people saying this about 30+ years ago, today in US you can buy a 700+ hp mustang, or here a 500 horse falcon off the showroom floor, the old crystal ball is a tricky thing !

KIWI-1 · 03-07-2012, 11:42 AM

That crystal ball sure is a tricky thing.

Way back in the days of the Model A, Chevrolet were making big gains on Ford because they had a straight-six engine and Ford still had the T-Model's 4-cylinder. Whilst Henry was away in Europe, his engineers secretly built a 6-cylinder. On his return, they proudly showed him their engine and he ordered it be destroyed. The flat-head V-8 was developed and was hugely successful for Ford, however many argue that it was the mainstream straight-six that made General Motors.

The above is my recollection from a biography of Henry Ford - feel free to correct my fading memory if necessary!

RASER · 03-07-2012, 11:52 AM

It's all about marketing, we have all been brainwashed to thinking that a 4 cylinder is more economical than a 8 cylinder.

Just like KFC is better than Kentuky FRIED chicken

What Ford need to do is call it a DOUBLE 4 CYLINDER, how good is that!

Wretched · 03-07-2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RASER

It's all about marketing, we have all been brainwashed to thinking that a 4 cylinder is more economical than a 8 cylinder.

explain?

RASER · 03-07-2012, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched

explain?

V8's are the Anti-Christ, and 4 cylinder is the solution to everything....NOT

Both BMW and Benz have huge sedans with V8's that offer outstanding performance and low fuel use.

GENV from GM [yes it has push rods and 2 valves/cylinder] will follow that theme.

Wretched · 03-07-2012, 12:08 PM

Yes, but when it comes down to the figures a 4 cylinder is more economical than a V8, it isn't marketing brainwashing.

V8s are not the anti-christ, no one of importance has said that.
Yes the V8s from AMG/Merc, BMW and Audi are class acts. Give me an E63 anyday.

Though the reason they are reducing sizes is because legislation dictates that each company must as an overall average on all models run at or below a certain mileage. Off the top of my head I cannot remember the figure.

chevypower · 03-07-2012, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

You might get it right!

No, I was referring to your reference, which appeared to be from Wiki... I read that a long time ago, how CRD was developed in the 1940s, but it wasn't really what you were talking about in your post about "diesel manufacturers vs petrol manufacturers." It was evident in that post, you were talking about diesel progression over the last decade. My point again, it was not Caterpillar that did it.

KIWI-1 · 03-07-2012, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RASER

It's all about marketing, we have all been brainwashed to thinking that a 4 cylinder is more economical than a 8 cylinder.

Just like KFC is better than Kentuky FRIED chicken

What Ford need to do is call it a DOUBLE 4 CYLINDER, how good is that!

Or do what did they did with their V-12; cut off 4 cylinders.

jpd80 · 03-07-2012, 02:01 PM

Well, I'd be comfortable with oh, say a Supercharged 3.5 V8 provided
it was in a nice light car like a Mustang or mid sized RWD Falcon

fordAU · 03-07-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik

perhaps, but i seem to remember people saying this about 30+ years ago, today in US you can buy a 700+ hp mustang, or here a 500 horse falcon off the showroom floor, the old crystal ball is a tricky thing !

What you say is true, I remember the Oil shock of the 70's well but the big difference is the change in technology, the road map is from petrol to electricity, like it was from steam to electricity.

Electric cars are now viable, over the next few years the improvements will be dramatic, once you have a range over 500km before charging that will be the end of petrol cars.

I guess we could talk about the reasons till the cows come home, the push to "greener" power for one, and all the rest of the bulldust but unfortunately that is the reality.

Will take a years but I reckon in 20 there wont be a petrol powered car on the road.

KIWI-1 · 03-07-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

No, I was referring to your reference, which appeared to be from Wiki... I read that a long time ago, how CRD was developed in the 1940s, but it wasn't really what you were talking about in your post about "diesel manufacturers vs petrol manufacturers." It was evident in that post, you were talking about diesel progression over the last decade. My point again, it was not Caterpillar that did it.

I thought I said CRD was used back in WWI?
Didn't Ford have a truck with hydraulically actuated injectors in the mid-ninety's? So we are talking two decades back.

chevypower · 03-07-2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

I thought I said CRD was used back in WWI?
Didn't Ford have a truck with hydraulically actuated injectors in the mid-ninety's? So we are talking two decades back.

Oh maybe... I'm not sure about those earlier CRD systems anyway. The first small diesel that I was really impressed with was Ford's 2.7 V6 in the 2004/5 Discovery 3. I think it used the 3rd gen Bosch system. Felt no different from the 4.4 V8, but used half the fuel. They have advanced significantly since then too. I have read the new Grand Cherokee CRD accelerates quicker than the Hemi. Yet to drive one, but I recommended it to my father who drove it then ordered one.

KIWI-1 · 03-07-2012, 03:29 PM

I think the IH/Cat/Siemens was the first HEUI truck a couple of years before the Alfa. Australia saw that technology for the first time in the Holden Jackaroo?

So what could be done with the 4.4 V-8 petrol with a few million R&D dollars? BTW They're not the first to do that with Jeep.
Wife has a Mazda3 2.2 diesel - same engine as Mazda6, also used in CX-7 but turbo recalibrated , so you might say the 3 is overpowered - and sometimes driven that way!!! The lay person would struggle to tell the difference between the diesel and the petrol. 110kw/360NM standard; 132kw/432NM with a Steinbauer tune. Will pull 100kph in 2nd gear at 4500rpm.

chevypower · 03-07-2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

So what could be done with the 4.4 V-8 petrol with a few million R&D dollars?

The combination of turbocharging and DI seem to do wonders on petrol engines. GTDI is really taking off.