Stop Start Technology

[csv8]

I had a Passat with stop start in England,,its crap!! glad I could turn it off...If I was buying a new car i would be checking if it has S S if so off my list...even if it has an off button.

[nadojay]

Originally Posted by olfella

Anyone had any oil testing on these cars/systems to see if fuel dilution is an issue especially requiring more frequent oil changes?

I dont know abouy fuel dilution or oil testing but wifes mazda 3 is 10k km/ 1 year service intervals

[burnz]

don't know about the direct injection engine using the type of method mentioned aforementioned posts about starting the engine..

each and every time in at the lights insert (brand here),, I "HEAR" a starter motor engaging..

[Express]

I’ve driven a couple of cars with it and I thought it was fairly unobtrusive.

Personally I couldn’t care less if the cars I own have it as long as I have the freedom to switch it off if I choose too.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by olfella

Anyone had any oil testing on these cars/systems to see if fuel dilution is an issue especially requiring more frequent oil changes?

Google 'mazda diesel oil dilution'

[4vxc]

like it or not this is the way things are in modern cars
we have 2 new Mazda's a 2 and a 3
The 2 is auto and the 3 a manual
both have this "feature" it isn't really a issue unless you focus on the restart
push a button to disengage or don't push as hard on the brake pedal at idle and it wont activate at all.
I wont be getting an oil analysis and wont be factoring in an engine rebuild in the future, these days engine rebuilds are nearly a thing of the past except for the older classics.
My daily is a FG11 which has hardly any tech compared to the Jap cars but that's fine by me as I'm sure if the local cars had this there would be issues anyway.

[zilo]

Rented a manual AWD Skoda wagon in Europe a couple of months ago.

It was manual and had start stop technology...including auto start when you stalled it.

THAT was a very nice feature when in the middle of an inmtersection.

[bangm001]

Hi guys, again, by lightly braking at the lights you can have the "I stop" never engage on the new mazdas, so it is really not that intrusive. I have attached a few pics of my car and the wifes. After having the FG F6s, a few other typhoons with the business I have decided to keep the BA long term. After getting out of the wifes mazda, the phoon feels like an "old school muscle car", with lots of driveline noise etc but an absolute mountain of power and torque! ;-)
The mazda 6 is really a great "little" car and for us, it doesn't bother me taking this car instead of mine to family functions etc as it is actually really comfortable. Clearly its hard to drive the turbo around like how we all want to with the hooning laws etc and maybe I am just getting older but it really is a comfortable effortless car to drive. We picked ours up as a demo with 2000kms on it for 32K on road, and its not a base sports, its the touring which comes with leather, gps etc standard. I think its a lot of car for that money. As for road noise, this thing is very quiet, although the toyos are noisy on some road surfaces. The quality of the mazdas is exceptional and have had zero issues so far (touch wood). Anyone considering one will not be disappointed.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by bangm001

Hi guys, again, by lightly braking at the lights you can have the "I stop" never engage on the new mazdas, so it is really not that intrusive. I have attached a few pics of my car and the wifes. After having the FG F6s, a few other typhoons with the business I have decided to keep the BA long term. After getting out of the wifes mazda, the phoon feels like an "old school muscle car", with lots of driveline noise etc but an absolute mountain of power and torque! ;-)
The mazda 6 is really a great "little" car and for us, it doesn't bother me taking this car instead of mine to family functions etc as it is actually really comfortable. Clearly its hard to drive the turbo around like how we all want to with the hooning laws etc and maybe I am just getting older but it really is a comfortable effortless car to drive. We picked ours up as a demo with 2000kms on it for 32K on road, and its not a base sports, its the touring which comes with leather, gps etc standard. I think its a lot of car for that money. As for road noise, this thing is very quiet, although the toyos are noisy on some road surfaces. The quality of the mazdas is exceptional and have had zero issues so far (touch wood). Anyone considering one will not be disappointed.

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Hey Bang, the woman I do gardening for has just picked up that exact model 6 in the same colour, and is over the moon about how nice it is. She got me to install the baby seat for her grandchild, I was amazed how well built the interior was.

[bangm001]

Mate I'm pretty fussy. There are no rattles, squeaks or any misalignment of anything inside or out. Pretty good for a budget car

[deesun]

I have had two experiences with s/s tech. The first in a BMW a couple of years ago. The R/E agent who owned it told me he had had no end of trouble with it after I mentioned it was rough to stop rough to start and if had been my car I would be cheesed off as well. Move forward about 3 years and I hired a Forrester with it. Thrifty warned me the car had it before we took off. Only two days with it, day 1 medium temp and it was noticeable as it stopped and shudder was evident on both stop and start. Day 2 was considerably hotter and it would stop at lights and only be off for about 5-10 secs and restart. Can't imagine that would be much of a fuel saver. Really not a fan.
On the engine wear issue I would not consider any problems because really how far would the oil disappear off parts in that 10-20 secs?

[mik]

Originally Posted by castellan

Not true.

Oil is every where it just does not run off like water you know.

You do not need oil pressure for oil to do it's job, oil does it's job.

The oil pressure comes about only because it is needed, if oil is their it's doing it's job.

but the idea of oil pressure is the metal to metal parts like the very heavy crank actually float on a minuute film oil , no oil pressure, the crank is sitting on bearings despite some oil still sitting on the crank and the bearings, but you would have to say some extra wear would occur unless they have a way around this, wear and tear occurrs in normal engines without this feature so one would think it would have to have more wear with constant start stopping.

[Peter B - CV8]

Originally Posted by mik

but the idea of oil pressure is the metal to metal parts like the very heavy crank actually float on a minuute film oil , no oil pressure, the crank is sitting on bearings despite some oil still sitting on the crank and the bearings, but you would have to say some extra wear would occur unless they have a way around this, wear and tear occurrs in normal engines without this feature so one would think it would have to have more wear with constant start stopping.

Yes Mik, that was the point I was trying to make. I've got no doubt that valve guides etc would be protected by the residual oil film - but not so sure above big end bearings, gudgeons etc... be interesting to fast forward a few years & see what issues start to appear.

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by deadfish2

The mazdas keep statistic for the istop in the instrument cluster for you too see, so for my olds car it's 14months old, has done 9,000km, and is saying istop has activated for 11hours 30min, as an example if stationary motor uses 1 LPH, and vehicles averages 10L/100KM there's, 11.5L fuel saved or an extra 115km driving

And that's worth having such a ****y gimmick in the car? To save 10 bucks while waiting nearly day light hours for it?

I for one think it's ridiculous, been in a Benz C250 with it installed and whatever was saved waiting at lights was quickly used up by the style of driving afterwards.

Proof of concept was probably a good idea at the time let down by execution.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

And that's worth having such a ****y gimmick in the car? To save 10 bucks while waiting nearly day light hours for it?

I for one think it's ridiculous, been in a Benz C250 with it installed and whatever was saved waiting at lights was quickly used up by the style of driving afterwards.

Proof of concept was probably a good idea at the time let down by execution.

I think its got to do more with actually manufacturer compliance with registration bodies across the globe (California for example) and therefore the ability for the manufacturer to actually build and deliver the car to the market than the way you drive.
Plus Australia doesn't have traffic to worry about, not compared to busy places...

JP

[Franco Cozzo]

Do they have electric AC compressors like hybrids so that they still work when the engine is off? I would be ****ED if the ac turned off because of this.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by mik

but the idea of oil pressure is the metal to metal parts like the very heavy crank actually float on a minuute film oil , no oil pressure, the crank is sitting on bearings despite some oil still sitting on the crank and the bearings, but you would have to say some extra wear would occur unless they have a way around this, wear and tear occurrs in normal engines without this feature so one would think it would have to have more wear with constant start stopping.

No the crank is not dry it's sitting on a film of oil regardless of the oil pressure.

The engine has stoped and does not need pressure.

Put a bit of oil on your finger and thumb now try to rub it off, you can't can you. it's the oil that does this not the pressure.

Pressure only exist to feed the oil to some place and it's the oil that does the work of keeping the parts from touching.

If you were to flog a cold engine is it the oil that's the problem you would not get up it ? no it's not the oil at all, it's that the parts are not a spec is the main reason to flog it.

Metal parts never touch when oil is their.
I have puled down engines that were sitting for years and oil was still sitting on the bearings.

[DBourne]

Originally Posted by BradEL

Stop start technology has to be one of the stupidest features on cars these days. Just pointless...

That and rain sensing wipers.. I'm sorry, but if you can't tell it is effing raining, then please get the hell off the road!!!!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by olfella

Anyone had any oil testing on these cars/systems to see if fuel dilution is an issue especially requiring more frequent oil changes?

The first of the current shape CX5 diesels had massive problems with this (fixed from MY14). But this was due to their emission system and the wrong dip stick apparently.

Originally Posted by SgtBourne

That and rain sensing wipers.. I'm sorry, but if you can't tell it is effing raining, then please get the hell off the road!!!!

Cylinder deactivation would be up there as well.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by castellan

No the crank is not dry it's sitting on a film of oil regardless of the oil pressure.

The engine has stoped and does not need pressure.

Put a bit of oil on your finger and thumb now try to rub it off, you can't can you. it's the oil that does this not the pressure.

Pressure only exist to feed the oil to some place and it's the oil that does the work of keeping the parts from touching.

If you were to flog a cold engine is it the oil that's the problem you would not get up it ? no it's not the oil at all, it's that the parts are not a spec is the main reason to flog it.

Metal parts never touch when oil is their.
I have puled down engines that were sitting for years and oil was still sitting on the bearings.

when the engine first fires the piston shock dents the big end,
when your engine is old it looses oil pressure due to bearings out of spec.

and the only way that can happen is metal to metal wear, if you could build oil pressure before starting your engine would still be going after 20 million miles..

[castellan]

Originally Posted by burnz

when the engine first fires the piston shock dents the big end,
when your engine is old it looses oil pressure due to bearings out of spec.

and the only way that can happen is metal to metal wear, if you could build oil pressure before starting your engine would still be going after 20 million miles..

Not true at all.
It's the contamination of the oil that is the main problem, it's like rubbish in the oil, dirt water fuel that causes the wear as the oil brakes down.

Rod bearings can fail due to the bolts flexing etc.

[jpblue1000]

reading up on the mazda start stop system. they use ignition in the cylinder to restart as opposed to the starter. they have developed tougher/slippery-er engine bearings to cope with the starting demands as the protective oil layer does diminish during engine off no oil pressure scenario. Similarly there has been significant development of oils tech that minimises the loss on mating faces of engine components.
I also read that some of the modern systems use the alternator to regenerative brake, store power in a capacitor for more traditional starter motor actuation upon restart.
a normal engine may do 50,000 starts in its life, a start stop engine is likely to do 500,000 so a significant increase in component useage. The better auto engineers seem to have taken this into account with heavier duty components, systems and materials to suit.

JP

[burnz]

Originally Posted by castellan

Not true at all.
It's the contamination of the oil that is the main problem, it's like rubbish in the oil, dirt water fuel that causes the wear as the oil brakes down.

Rod bearings can fail due to the bolts flexing etc.

umm no;

hydro dynamic bearing require fluid under pressure, oil/water/milk what ever...
that is what your crank shaft is "hydro dynamic" setup..

oil film mean squat, oil pressure that's it "no if buts candy and nuts" oil pressure..

[madmelon]

I've worked for a Chinese Automotive company. My last project before our little office in Sydney was closed down was the implementation of Idle-Stop-Start (ISS) on existing automatic transmissions.

The literature I was privy to showed a 5-12% improvement in fuel economy by implementing ISS on a vehicle. What many of you are forgetting is that fuel economy is becoming the driving force behind new vehicle features and technology developments. It's the primary reason we have 6, 7, 8, 9 and soon 10 speed transmissions.

The 'green panic' has taken hold of various federal governments and the EU and the automotive industry has ended up with something called a Corporate Average Fuel Economy Target (CAFE). Legislations now exists in Europe and the US (and is no doubt going to appear elsewhere) which dictates the maximum average fuel consumption for volume manufacturers. I don't have the data at hand, but some of these targets are ludicrously low and manufacturers will do whatever it takes to meet them at the minimum cost. ISS is one way of noticeably reducing fuel consumption on government tests for a comparatively small outlay. As others have said- all the sensors required are already present in the vehicle. The only changes really required for a manual car is an upgraded starter motor- the testing I personally did revealed approximately 250,000-300,000 starts in a typical 250,000km transmission life.

For an automatic car, there are some more requirements and this is where I was involved. In order for the vehicle to perform ISS 'seamlessly', the power train must be able to provide torque to the wheels within 0.4s of the driver removing their foot from the brake pedal. For an automatic transmission to be ready in time, it either needs an electric pump running to keep clutch pistons primed or it needs a hydraulic accumulator, ready to give a quick shot of high pressure oil to stroke on the drive clutches.

Amongst all these things, there are a huge list of criteria that need to be met for the engine to be switched off. This ensures safety, reliability and user comfort (eg HVAC requirements).

Anyone who complains about having to push one additional button each time they get in, in order to turn of a technology proven to reduce fuel consumption needs to have a good hard look at themselves. Next thing you know, you'll be complaining about having to push a button or turn a key to turn the car on in the first place...

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

And that's worth having such a ****y gimmick in the car? To save 10 bucks while waiting nearly day light hours for it?

I for one think it's ridiculous, been in a Benz C250 with it installed and whatever was saved waiting at lights was quickly used up by the style of driving afterwards.

Proof of concept was probably a good idea at the time let down by execution.

I was thinking more along the lines of..."is that all?" For all the money invested in the tech aswell as the above mentioned questions about long life issues within the engines.....is it even worth it? It certainly is to the customer.....but to the manufacturer?....I'm not so sure. As we've seen, leaps and bounds in efficiency have been made by going diesel and more recently smaller capacity turbo petrol engines!
Time will tell.

[LoudPipes]

Nice dog.

Originally Posted by bangm001

[castellan]

Originally Posted by burnz

umm no;

hydro dynamic bearing require fluid under pressure, oil/water/milk what ever...
that is what your crank shaft is "hydro dynamic" setup..

oil film mean squat, oil pressure that's it "no if buts candy and nuts" oil pressure..

You don't understand.

The crank bearings needs oil pressure because that's the design, it needs pressure when running, to flow.

The oil does all the work, it's not the oil pump pressure doing the work at all of keeping the parts from touching.

Sure the oil it has to flow to remove heat.

Try putting oil on a crankshaft main bearings in the block and just turn it around a 1000 times by hand then come back the next day or week and see if you can turn it again it will for years.

[Peter B - CV8]

Originally Posted by castellan

You don't understand.

The crank bearings needs oil pressure because that's the design, it needs pressure when running, to flow.

The oil does all the work, it's not the oil pump pressure doing the work at all of keeping the parts from touching.

Sure the oil it has to flow to remove heat.

Try putting oil on a crankshaft main bearings in the block and just turn it around a 1000 times by hand then come back the next day or week and see if you can turn it again it will for years.

Not doubting that you could do that with a free floating crank. Now try it with some force ie to replicate combustion/rod force & see how long the bearings last. lol.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by castellan

You don't understand.

The crank bearings needs oil pressure because that's the design, it needs pressure when running, to flow.

The oil does all the work, it's not the oil pump pressure doing the work at all of keeping the parts from touching.

Sure the oil it has to flow to remove heat.

Try putting oil on a crankshaft main bearings in the block and just turn it around a 1000 times by hand then come back the next day or week and see if you can turn it again it will for years.

Remember the car will be accelerating from the lights probably at near full throttle, with oil pressure not having had a chance to get up again. And that is with the oil and engine components including bearings all at warmed up (hot) temperatures. Oil is a lot less viscous when hot.

But time will tell and show up any effects on the engine and other components. Wont be me though.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by castellan

You don't understand.

The crank bearings needs oil pressure because that's the design, it needs pressure when running, to flow.

The oil does all the work, it's not the oil pump pressure doing the work at all of keeping the parts from touching.

Sure the oil it has to flow to remove heat.

Try putting oil on a crankshaft main bearings in the block and just turn it around a 1000 times by hand then come back the next day or week and see if you can turn it again it will for years.

as peter said, now add the hammering effect of combustion.
about a stick of dynamite per combustion should do it..