Fords on Fire

[au350hp]

This is a story from the 'Unique Cars' trade mag. Thought you all might enjoy a unbiased real horror story.
Bloke driving a Land Rover 3 V8 through the night in the country. Hit a kangaroo which the bull bar took the brunt of the hit and the roo was flung out the way. Here's where it gets interesting. Sensing a collision, both front airbags were deployed, turning the interior lights on, filling the cabin with smoke & fine dust and therefore blinding the driver from seeing, then the crash system shut down the motor, compromising the power steering & brakes. All of this whilst doing 90km/h on a bend. Luckily, the driver had a lot of rally experience and kept his cool, holding the cars line untill it stopped.
I wonder how mr cardigan or whatever his name is would have fared in his faithful huynudai?

[Sprintey]

OK then, Cadogan playing the fool/others playing the man attacking him aside...

There's an SZ Terry on fire in a pic on his vid... Let's assume it's petrol (unless diesel can ignite in underbonnet spills too) - what is the likely cause? Injector leak, petrol line leak?

Honest question for it is something I could look at on mine.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

OK then, Cadogan playing the fool/others playing the man attacking him aside...

There's an SZ Terry on fire in a pic on his vid... Let's assume it's petrol (unless diesel can ignite in underbonnet spills too) - what is the likely cause? Injector leak, petrol line leak?

Honest question for it is something I could look at on mine.

Your question is one of the few sane posts here.

I watched the report in “post 1” again and it is even more frightening, particularly the South African Ford fires. I tried to get a better look at the burning Territory, only still shots and with no time frame as to whether it is 10 seconds into the fire or 2 minutes into it.

Electrical Possibilities ( Standard vehicle, NO electrical mods )

If the electrical insulation in a high current carrying looms breaks down a little, or degrades / decomposes and draws a current by chance just under the fuse rating, this will cause heat.
Say you have a 20 amp fuse and the insulation breakdown causes 17 amps to flow to earth or through some other low resistance device.

The Fuse will not blow !

It will cause 238 watts of heat. Over a long piece of cable this can dissipate a bit better, but over a shorter run, that heat will attack the insulation. This then could cause a snowball effect in the harness with other cables and fuses.

Even if the insulation smoldered or caught fire, it would surely have to ignite some flammable material in the dash that should not be there.

If a fuel line in the engine bay broke, had ignition on a hot exhaust etc, that in my mind would be a quick violent fire that would probably take a little while to get to the dash.

Ford are saying electrical faults.

I have seen a car many years ago suddenly stop on the highway and emit billowing white smoke, but not flames. Obviously the electrical system let go in a big way. ( PS it was 1970’s Kingswood )

Cable insulation on household power cables in recent decades has become physically very thin. Yes it passes the Australian Standards insulation tests, but its longevity is a question in my mind.

Perhaps newer automotive cable insulation is physically thinner and degrades / decomposes quicker for green reasons and a bad batch lets go a lot quicker on some cars.

[Sprintey]

Thanks Peter, good informative post. It gives a startpoint to go checking the condition of things. Not a common fault at all in this type of car, our forums would be all over it if it was.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Thanks Peter, good informative post. It gives a startpoint to go checking the condition of things. Not a common fault at all in this type of car, our forums would be all over it if it was.

If you purchased your vehicle 2nd hand, it may be prudent to check all your fuse values and make sure they are the correct rating. An oversize fuse that a previous owner installed would make my previously posted scenario even worse.

As a side note, thinking about these suspected electrical fault initiated fires, I recall Battery Isolators which were common after market items in the 1970’s.

I threw an old one out recently. It was a battery post installed item with a solenoid that allowed you to instantly isolate the battery from ( an installed ) switch on the dash.

Maybe these are still available ?

Certainly would help if you suddenly saw smoke from the dash. You would stop instantly, activate switch, battery disconnected, no more source of heat, and hopefully, not a lot of damage.

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

OK then, Cadogan playing the fool/others playing the man attacking him aside...

There's an SZ Terry on fire in a pic on his vid... Let's assume it's petrol (unless diesel can ignite in underbonnet spills too) - what is the likely cause? Injector leak, petrol line leak?

Honest question for it is something I could look at on mine.

He said petrol from memory.

Another cause could be shoddy workmanship during servicing either by Ford or another mechanic.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

I threw an old one out recently. It was a battery post installed item with a solenoid that allowed you to instantly isolate the battery from ( an installed ) switch on the dash.

Maybe these are still available ?

Yeah they are mate, I saw them the other day, right next to the tin foil hats.

[Peterwl]

John Cadogan is the “Go to Man” if you have a serious car problem with a manufacturer that will not honor the warranty.

I would love him to go into bat for me if I was being fobbed off over serious new car defects.

Maybe that is why the TV exec ( Territory owner ) in the clip went straight to him.

Just have a look at the Federal Government’s recall site on the Ford issues.

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/pro...port/cars/ford


And then there is the expanded list.

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/rec...-all-recalls?f[0]=field_accc_psa_product_category%3A4904

Yes there are some other makes listed there as well.

He is only telling the truth ( with sarcasm and wit thrown in ).

He is an experienced Professional Mechanical Engineer ! Not some Fred who plays with cars or keyboards on a Forum.

We are all better off being informed ( even by a messenger you do not like )

He obviously upsets some new age snowflakes and fan boys though !

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

John Cadogan is the “Go to Man” if you have a serious car problem with a manufacturer that will not honor the warranty.

I would love him to go into bat for me if I was being fobbed off over serious new car defects.

Maybe that is why the TV exec ( Territory owner ) in the clip went straight to him.

Just have a look at the Federal Government’s recall site on the Ford issues.

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/pro...port/cars/ford


And then there is the expanded list.

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/rec...-all-recalls?f[0]=field_accc_psa_product_category%3A4904

Yes there are some other makes listed there as well.

He is only telling the truth ( with sarcasm and wit thrown in ).

He is an experienced Professional Mechanical Engineer ! Not some Fred who plays with cars or keyboards on a Forum.

We are all better off being informed ( even by a messenger you do not like )

He obviously upsets some new age snowflakes and fan boys though !

I've started and stopped typing 4 responses to this post, but I got too confused...

I'm out...

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Yeah they are mate, I saw them the other day, right next to the tin foil hats.

I am surprised you are allowed out on your own to go to a retail shop !

How does a mind like yours move that body.

I must inform you that tin foil hats are only for conspiracy speculation.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by Beastie

I've started and stopped typing 4 responses to this post, but I got too confused...

I'm out...

Looking at your previous post, I can understand this.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

John Cadogan is the “Go to Man” if you have a serious car problem with a manufacturer that will not honor the warranty.

I would love him to go into bat for me if I was being fobbed off over serious new car defects.

Maybe that is why the TV exec ( Territory owner ) in the clip went straight to him.

Just have a look at the Federal Government’s recall site on the Ford issues.

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/pro...port/cars/ford


And then there is the expanded list.

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/rec...-all-recalls?f[0]=field_accc_psa_product_category%3A4904

Yes there are some other makes listed there as well.

He is only telling the truth ( with sarcasm and wit thrown in ).

He is an experienced Professional Mechanical Engineer ! Not some Fred who plays with cars or keyboards on a Forum.

We are all better off being informed ( even by a messenger you do not like )

He obviously upsets some new age snowflakes and fan boys though !

He may report the truth here and there occasionally.

But he conveniently leaves out a lot of truth everywhere else.
He just sprouts is own agenda ... nothing more.

If you can't see that .... it may be that you are the fanboi.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

Looking at your previous post, I can understand this.

So we are both confused...

[GTLEGEND]

Petrol will not catch fire or ignite from landing on an exhaust system, the flash point is not hot enough.

For fuel to ignite you need an electrical spark or a flame.

[Peterwl]

Realistically, if you were a Ford Australia Engineer and have to investigate these fires in Focus, Kuga, Territory etc, and you are presented with a blackened burnt out wreck, I suggest it would be extremely difficult to say with confidence what started it.

Was it a strictly electrical initiated fire ?
Was it an electrical initiated fire before petrol ?
Was it Petrol in the engine bay that started it first ?

How would I trigger this fire to happen in a controlled viewable environment ?

From an Electrical Engineering analysis, yes you could install a “First Up Alarm” monitoring system in the vehicle and monitor every larger current carrying cable, put temperature sensors in the dash as well as smoke detectors. If something did happen, the first up alarm system will tell you what happened first.

A messy installation to drive around with.

You may have to drive the vehicle with this equipment around for weeks, years, or forever to make the fire event happen.

I am sure Ford would know if the dash material burns easily, or that you would need to hit it with a blow torch to make it burn. ( which is probably the case )

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

He may report the truth here and there occasionally.

But he conveniently leaves out a lot of truth everywhere else.
He just sprouts is own agenda ... nothing more.

If you can't see that .... it may be that you are the fanboi.

He does not have his own agenda from what I see of his clips. If you had been informed and watched his more recent ones you would notice that he has toned the entertainment aspect down a bit.

I am a fan boy of facts and that elusive thing I cherish today, the truth.

The man has the field to himself at this stage. I would love to see a competitor for him in this area.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by GTLEGEND

Petrol will not catch fire or ignite from landing on an exhaust system, the flash point is not hot enough.

For fuel to ignite you need an electrical spark or a flame.

I am now relieved that I can splash a bit of petrol around an engine bay with extractors glowing red hot and all will be well. But I will not try it. Maybe you can an let us know how it goes.

[GTLEGEND]

There is a science behind investigating fires.

Burn patterns on the vehicle shows where the most intense heat was, this is usually the part of the vehicle where the fire started. Different materials leave different evidence when burnt. You can also tell if a fire started inside or outside the vehicle (engine bay) by the way the glass melts etc etc

You would be surprised what you can find when looking at a burnt vehicle and the way investigators or experts in the field can work out where/why and how the fire started.

Too much information to go into here, but believe me there are ways to work it out. Although sometimes if the vehicle is burnt beyond recognition, most of the evidence can get consumed by the fire and cause can also be "unknown".

This is similar to ways fire investigators work out what causes house fires.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

He does not have his own agenda from what I see of his clips. If you had been informed and watched his more recent ones you would notice that he has toned the entertainment aspect down a bit.

I am a fan boy of facts and that elusive thing I cherish today, the truth.

The man has the field to himself at this stage. I would love to see a competitor for him in this area.

I think that you would make the perfect competitor...'

Looking forward to your clips...

[GTLEGEND]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

I am now relieved that I can splash a bit of petrol around an engine bay with extractors glowing red hot and all will be well. But I will not try it. Maybe you can an let us know how it goes.

I tried to find a video on youtube with no success.

We did this at TAFE where we had a chassis with a working engine/drive line. Got it warm, then revved the ringer our of it. Got the exhaust as hot as you could imagine, petrol thrown and nothing, just evaporated. Oil on the other hand is a different story. Caught a light instantly.

All done in a controlled environment of course...

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

I am now relieved that I can splash a bit of petrol around an engine bay with extractors glowing red hot and all will be well. But I will not try it. Maybe you can an let us know how it goes.

Factory standard vehicles do not have exposed "red hot" extractors. Exhaust manifold are shielded to a certain minimum distance and do not reach the temperatures of the actual headers underneath.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by GTLEGEND

There is a science behind investigating fires.

Burn patterns on the vehicle shows where the most intense heat was, this is usually the part of the vehicle where the fire started. Different materials leave different evidence when burnt. You can also tell if a fire started inside or outside the vehicle (engine bay) by the way the glass melts etc etc

You would be surprised what you can find when looking at a burnt vehicle and the way investigators or experts in the field can work out where/why and how the fire started.

Too much information to go into here, but believe me there are ways to work it out. Although sometimes if the vehicle is burnt beyond recognition, most of the evidence can get consumed by the fire and cause can also be "unknown".

This is similar to ways fire investigators work out what causes house fires.

I acknowledge what you say about fire investigation being a science, but if this is so clear as to the source of ignition, Ford would have engaged these specialists and answers known. Money for this would be no problem for ford.

I would like to think that Ford has done just this !

As for house fires, I would think they may be easier to analyse than a car fire.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by Beastie

I think that you would make the perfect competitor...'

Looking forward to your clips...

No, sorry, I am not good enough, he is far more knowledgeable and capable than I on automotive design and matters automotive. I am just a retired Electrical Engineer and a humble car enthusiast.

Does not appear anyone else is good enough either !

BUT I would like his income !

[GTLEGEND]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

I acknowledge what you say about fire investigation being a science, but if this is so clear as to the source of ignition, Ford would have engaged these specialists and answers known. Money for this would be no problem for ford.

I would like to think that Ford has done just this !

As for house fires, I would think they may be easier to analyse than a car fire.

I think they do and have. They investigate and if it is a manufacture fault then a rework/recall would be created and carried out to eliminate the source, just like the recent Kuga recall. So to answer your question, yes I believe they do.

They also did for the Everest that caught on fire in 2015, found the cause, worked out why and so on..

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by GTLEGEND

I tried to find a video on youtube with no success.

We did this at TAFE where we had a chassis with a working engine/drive line. Got it warm, then revved the ringer our of it. Got the exhaust as hot as you could imagine, petrol thrown and nothing, just evaporated. Oil on the other hand is a different story. Caught a light instantly.

All done in a controlled environment of course...

You are one of the more sane posters on this forum, I will take your word for that regarding petrol. If you were an apprentice motor mechanic at TAFE, all the better for my confidence of your post.

It makes sense that apprentice motor mechanics should do a practical demonstration like this.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

He is only telling the truth ( with sarcasm and wit thrown in ).

here is some truth. all the vegetables and fruit in woollies are out of my garden. fact. here is a bit more detail.... they were never in my garden!

Its easy to claim 'truth' and 'fact' when you don't tell the whole story, or only tell certain sides to the story.

He is a sensationalist who likes the sound of his own voice.

Originally Posted by Peterwl

He is an experienced Professional Mechanical Engineer ! Not some Fred who plays with cars or keyboards on a Forum.

so, how many proficient skilled tradesmen end up on making youtube clips instead of working in their apparent field of expertise?

Originally Posted by Peterwl

We are all better off being informed ( even by a messenger you do not like )

He obviously upsets some new age snowflakes and fan boys though !

He is informative... the same way tracey grimshaw is on ACA. He is a bully who uses offensive language and big words to try make himself sound credible. Unfortunately, as far as ford is concerned, he is a self confessed ford hater, so pretty much impossible for him to be objective.

i certainly don't feel informed after watching any of his clips (or smarter for that matter). I bet he's about 5 foot tall with small man syndrome.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by prydey

here is some truth. all the vegetables and fruit in woollies are out of my garden. fact. here is a bit more detail.... they were never in my garden!

Its easy to claim 'truth' and 'fact' when you don't tell the whole story, or only tell certain sides to the story.

He is a sensationalist who likes the sound of his own voice.



so, how many proficient skilled tradesmen end up on making youtube clips instead of working in their apparent field of expertise?



He is informative... the same way tracey grimshaw is on ACA. He is a bully who uses offensive language and big words to try make himself sound credible. Unfortunately, as far as ford is concerned, he is a self confessed ford hater, so pretty much impossible for him to be objective.

i certainly don't feel informed after watching any of his clips (or smarter for that matter). I bet he's about 5 foot tall with small man syndrome.

You certainly do have some hang ups.

I do not think you should ever go to a Rodney Rude or Kevin Bloody Wilson concert, it will be too much for you.

Get someone to explain to you what adult comedy is.

I would suggest you get help about your bias and hate for John Cadogan, it may end up as a neurosis and end bad for you.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

I do not think you should ever go to a Rodney Rude or Kevin Bloody Wilson concert, it will be too much for you.

Get someone to explain to you what adult comedy is.

if you need to stoop to offensive language to try to be funny, or to get your point across, you either have a very poor vocabulary range, or not very intelligent, or both.

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by Peterwl

You certainly do have some hang ups.

I do not think you should ever go to a Rodney Rude or Kevin Bloody Wilson concert, it will be too much for you.

Get someone to explain to you what adult comedy is.

I would suggest you get help about your bias and hate for John Cadogan, it may end up as a neurosis and end bad for you.

We don't need your suggestions or advice. You like him, fine but when someone posts something you don't agree with, you resort to personal insults with sarcastic childish comments and come across as an arrogant boor.

Cadogan is not professional in any sense of the word, I think he used the word lapsed. He lacks objectivity and I certainly wouldn't want him in my corner in dealings with a manufacturer. Hes not even an itch that needs to be scratched.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you need to stoop to offensive language to try to be funny, or to get your point across, you either have a very poor vocabulary range, or not very intelligent, or both.

I did not use one vulgar word, such sensitivity. But while I am here could you explain what your post on "Vegetables" and "Woolies" has to do with Fords that burn and John Cadogan ?

I am at a loss what it means ?