Difference between S/C 8 and Turbo Barra

[solarite_guy]

Our good friends at Evolution Performance.

They were also the first to run 8s with a Wipple Supercharged Coyote powered Mustang back in 2011 - 2012.

[stevanford]

Originally Posted by ratter

V8 sprint has different size tyres to the turbo one doesn't it?

Same IIRC

[Professor Farnsworth]

Yes they’re both on 265s

[ratter]

Originally Posted by Fiji

What that graph fails to show is the supercharged 8 is probably at 8-9psi where the turbo 6 is at 15-16psi.

did you even look at the graph?

[baboon]

Originally Posted by Fiji

Why not dyno both at 10psi or both at 15psi? Super8 will kill the barra 6

I think the original post was to compare how two cars making the same power can deliver it in different ways, not which can make the most power with the same boost.

But if you wanted to compare at the same boost, it would be interesting to see what a Supercharged 5L V8 at 10psi would compare to a Turbocharged 5L I6 (if you could make one at 5L) at 10psi....

[lucas2]

Originally Posted by Fiji

Why not dyno both at 10psi or both at 15psi? Super8 will kill the barra 6

But the Miami has a higher compression ratio. So you'd need to get the same compression ratio between the engines. What about head and exhaust flow/size? You'd need to get that as relatively equal too.

It's apples and oranges. It's the same argument you see on LS forums or Facebook - "Strap a turbo to my SS and then see what happens to your Barra". It's an argument that will just go in circles and neither side will ever be satisfied.

Of course an engine with another 25% displacement, 2 more cylinders, 2 more cams, higher compression and another 8 valves will make more power on the same boost.

I love the Miami's and would have one in a heart beat.

Just to stir the pot - How many Miami's are coping with 20-25psi on stock rods/pistons?

[Geeseman]

The v8 is a far more refined engine than the 6. It has better torque delivery and sounds way better. It doesn’t idle like a truck as the 6 and ls engines do either. No contest.

[sixman]

I think what people forget with this silly argument is that both are actually in the same car! They are otherwise virtually identical. They both share all the other problems, but with the choice of 2 awesome engines.

[Bent8]

Here how to tell the difference between the Miami and Barra engines... if you look closely, the Miami V8 is essentially giving the 2 finger salute !



Sorry, just had a few ... carry on.

[chrisandsharon]

Difference is obvious. I’m trying to work why the ‘why V8s are so slow’ thread was closed and this one is still open.

Video of the legend JB on the difference between the GT and F6.

https://youtu.be/NGg4AMQOOJU

They can both do this very well ....

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by chrisandsharon

Difference is obvious. I’m trying to work why the ‘why V8s are so slow’ thread was closed and this one is still open.

Video of the legend JB on the difference between the GT and F6.

https://youtu.be/NGg4AMQOOJU

They can both do this very well ....

The thread was closed because V8's are actually fast... click here for the proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zVTMAOiL-8

[chrisandsharon]

Originally Posted by Bent8

The thread was closed because V8's are actually fast... click here for the proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zVTMAOiL-8

Always loved that video. The GTF in white is just beautiful.

Go in and disconnect the limiter and a turbo 6 maxed out on that road would be rediculously quick also.

If I won lotto tomorrow I’d have a yellow BF typhoon rspec, a white GTF and a another F6 in white in my garage. What could have been if we didn’t lose the Falcon.

[arronm]

Not many V8 late model falcons in this list.

A few fast barras. 310kph and thats only over 1000m. 200mph easy.

https://www.racewars.com.au/Event/Re..._1000_MTR_DRAG

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Bent8

The thread was closed because V8's are actually fast... click here for the proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zVTMAOiL-8

Oh soooooooo close. Takes a lot of power to go real fast. 297kpm is great for factory car.

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by Geeseman

The v8 is a far more refined engine than the 6. It has better torque delivery and sounds way better. It doesn’t idle like a truck as the 6 and ls engines do either. No contest.

And it's the best Ford engine ever built in Australia . No I'm wrong , it's the best engine by anybody ever built in Australia . The Barra 6 I'm talking about.

The Miami is AWESOME , it's a fantastic engine by any measure . It might make more power , it might be more refined and so it should be given how long the Barra's been around . Just the same you've got to admit that our mighty all Aussie turbo 6 has a lot of local passion , ingenuity and pride built into it by us and for us and this awesome engine is as tough and robust as it gets . It can develop a huge amount of power and torque for the money.

I'd love the joy of a SC V8 Miami of course but our own tried and tested Barra Turbo is a sweet and bloody quick donk and as for idling like a truck engine..Where'd you get that from . None of the Barra Turbo or even N/A's I've ever experienced sound anything like that.

Do you reckon FPV would muck around with a turbo 6 and put their reputation on the line with it if they thought it wasn't up to it .

Short and definitive answer is NO.

Your post reads a bit like sour grapes to me .

[arronm]

V8 is good and all , but only a half ****d attempt. They didnt even cool the supercharger. Bolt on and hope for the best.

When its cool you get nice overboost. The rest of the time its cooking and lower power. So much potential not realised.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by arronm

Oh soooooooo close. Takes a lot of power to go real fast. 297kpm is great for factory car.

That run was done at the top of 5th gear (manual) but I reckon a quick shift to 6th and it would have done 300kph plus...

[JC]

Originally Posted by arronm

V8 is good and all , but only a half ****d attempt. They didnt even cool the supercharger. Bolt on and hope for the best.

When its cool you get nice overboost. The rest of the time its cooking and lower power. So much potential not realised.

Do you know why it wasn’t intercooled? Story I’ve read is that it would deliver too much torque and would’ve meant the chassis needed to be strengthened, especially around the firewall area. So, because Ford didn’t have any funds to do all the extra work, they left it non-cooled. The best perfomance car ever developed by Ford Oz was hobbled due to costs. What could have been!

[arronm]

That's a shame. But we can tune a car for great power. But Ford have to warrant it so their hands are tied.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Bent8

That run was done at the top of 5th gear (manual) but I reckon a quick shift to 6th and it would have done 300kph plus...

I dont think so, RPM would drop to much and not enough power to push through the air.

297kph is great for factory car.

But how good is this for an old banger. 330kw at the tyres. About the same as GTF

http://www.airpowersystems.com/falcon/avalon/307kph.htm

[Professor Farnsworth]

The story I heard was it was going to be cooled but they ran out of money full-stop. I doubt the "too much torque" thing has any merit as plenty of people are running I/C Miamis without them turning into an overstressed tailshaft.

[JC]

Originally Posted by chrisandsharon

Difference is obvious. I’m trying to work why the ‘why V8s are so slow’ thread was closed and this one is still open.

Video of the legend JB on the difference between the GT and F6.

https://youtu.be/NGg4AMQOOJU

They can both do this very well ....

That has limited relevance to the comparison we are talking about since JB is taking about the 5.4 NA 315kw V8. Yes chassis etc still the same but power delivery of the SC unit is an another league and claims back the straight line speed the F6 may have held previously. I think that’s half the issue F6 folk hang their hat on the comparison to the NA V8 and miss the fact that the Miami is sooooo much better.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

The story I heard was it was going to be cooled but they ran out of money full-stop. I doubt the "too much torque" thing has any merit as plenty of people are running I/C Miamis without them turning into an overstressed tailshaft.

One of my customers is an engineer for ford, he told me about the torque issues a when it was occurring.
The thing is, most enthusiasts will push beyond the power levels that the factory does, and most will not see any apparent issues, nor care in most cases that a rattle has occurred etc, but Ford had to put a warranty on the cars and ensure it held up to the factory power level.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by arronm

I dont think so, RPM would drop to much and not enough power to push through the air.

297kph is great for factory car.

But how good is this for an old banger. 330kw at the tyres. About the same as GTF

http://www.airpowersystems.com/falcon/avalon/307kph.htm

Picking up 6th at that speed would see 5000rpm on the dial where the GT-F's Miami is still making around 300rwkw... my guess is they didn't have enough road to crack 300kph but with the right gearing (eg. ZF auto), the GT-F can go faster.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by JC

That has limited relevance to the comparison we are talking about since JB is taking about the 5.4 NA 315kw V8. Yes chassis etc still the same but power delivery of the SC unit is an another league and claims back the straight line speed the F6 may have held previously. I think that’s half the issue F6 folk hang their hat on the comparison to the NA V8 and miss the fact that the Miami is sooooo much better.

Spot on... years ago, Wheels mag dyno'd the BOSS 315 (5.4) where it made 252rwkw @ 6300rpm

For comparison, the BOSS 335 (Miami) makes this much power at around 4500rpm !

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Picking up 6th at that speed would see 5000rpm on the dial where the GT-F's Miami is still making around 300rwkw... my guess is they didn't have enough road to crack 300kph but with the right gearing (eg. ZF auto), the GT-F can go faster.

They had kilometers of road. If 6th would have helped they would have used it.

They would not have been happy with 297. The goal was over 300.

The car just couldn't do it.

PS- that car run just past 7000rpm, does the factory car rev this high???

So could run to 7k in 5th. Car just couldnt go any faster...

[chrisandsharon]

Originally Posted by JC

That has limited relevance to the comparison we are talking about since JB is taking about the 5.4 NA 315kw V8. Yes chassis etc still the same but power delivery of the SC unit is an another league and claims back the straight line speed the F6 may have held previously. I think that’s half the issue F6 folk hang their hat on the comparison to the NA V8 and miss the fact that the Miami is sooooo much better.

Spot on JC regarding the motor, the yank motor that then had $40 000 000 spent on it along with years of development that saw the creation of the Miami. Of course it’s going to better than the Coyote.

How much money was spent on the Aussie Barra in comparison since that video?

That there is the difference between the two for me - one needed years of development and $40 000 000 thrown at it, the Aussie Barra needed nothin’.

I grew up on Ford Aussie 6s and have my piece of history in the mighty F6. On the 26th of January every year I polish up my Aussie Barra, hang 2 Aussie flags off her and do what my family has done since I can remember - celebrate all things Aussie with a smokin’ bbq.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by JC

That has limited relevance to the comparison we are talking about since JB is taking about the 5.4 NA 315kw V8. Yes chassis etc still the same but power delivery of the SC unit is an another league and claims back the straight line speed the F6 may have held previously. I think that’s half the issue F6 folk hang their hat on the comparison to the NA V8 and miss the fact that the Miami is sooooo much better.

Coyote is light years ahead of the 5.4 , Miami is basically a Boss 302 mustang has boss 302 rods and cams with a charger on top .....which is a big step up from coyote, both run stock forged crank which was designed for boost ....tuff package for a little 5 litre

[JC]

Originally Posted by chrisandsharon

Spot on JC regarding the motor, the yank motor that then had $40 000 000 spent on it along with years of development that saw the creation of the Miami. Of course it’s going to better than the Coyote.

How much money was spent on the Aussie Barra in comparison since that video?

That there is the difference between the two for me - one needed years of development and $40 000 000 thrown at it, the Aussie Barra needed nothin’.

I grew up on Ford Aussie 6s and have my piece of history in the mighty F6. On the 26th of January every year I polish up my Aussie Barra, hang 2 Aussie flags off her and do what my family has done since I can remember - celebrate all things Aussie with a smokin’ bbq.

I'm not sure how you think there was no R&D on the Barra 6. It went from a 4.1 crossflow 6, through iterations of EA 3.9, increase up to 4.0 for EB through to AU going from dizzy to coilpack, and then DOHC 4.0 from BA. At the same time, they chucked a turbo on it, and in that form it went from 240 to 270 to 310 to 325 kw in final FGX Sprint guise - each step along the way would have cost millions in R&D; maybe not in engine casting changes (although there was some of that), but definitely in wages of engineers etc. It's an evolution of 50 years from the engine that started in the 60s.....

$40M on making the coyote into the Miami would be a pittance in comparison.

[shaness8]

297 in the GTF pretty good in my opinion considering it was stinking hot with cool temps 300 wouldn’t be a problem.