Phase 4 up for auction

[73 4V XB]

[BENT_8]

Does anyone else find it ironic that a factory racecar which never even turned a wheel in the battle it was destined to dominate conjures up so much controversy.
So because they never made it to Bathurst in 72 they are worth millions, however, had they made it and the race unfolded as it had for the P3 they would have been convincingly beaten by the GTR and resigned to history as just another car which didnt make the cut.

[zoesgift]

Originally Posted by HO 3

Why slightly shady provenance? It would have to be one of the most original XA Falcon in existence no matter what you want to call it, and yet you wipe it like a dirty bum.

Cheers Mick

i agree Mick there is nothing shady about the provenance of the car at all.what is sketchy and more than likely always will be, beyond doubt, is which car is which in the racing scheme and potentially what is considered concourse correct on the ph4 and the prototypes. the great thing about this car is its crazy low mileage which is genuine. the owners of these cars are not short of coin and great people to boot so talking price is not really a going concern for the current owners its more the, "I'm getting a bit old now and these cars now need to be moved on to the next custodian" and an auction house is the best way for this to occur. the word tyre kicker would go to a never before seen level if you were trying to sell such a car yourself!!

[HO 3]

Originally Posted by zoesgift

i agree Mick there is nothing shady about the provenance of the car at all.what is sketchy and more than likely always will be, beyond doubt, is which car is which in the racing scheme and potentially what is considered concourse correct on the ph4 and the prototypes. the great thing about this car is its crazy low mileage which is genuine. the owners of these cars are not short of coin and great people to boot so talking price is not really a going concern for the current owners its more the, "I'm getting a bit old now and these cars now need to be moved on to the next custodian" and an auction house is the best way for this to occur. the word tyre kicker would go to a never before seen level if you were trying to sell such a car yourself!!

Is the owner getting old or can he see an opportunity for some quick wealth transfer before the next financial Armageddon. Lol.

Cheers Mick

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Does anyone else find it ironic that a factory racecar which never even turned a wheel in the battle it was destined to dominate conjures up so much controversy.
So because they never made it to Bathurst in 72 they are worth millions, however, had they made it and the race unfolded as it had for the P3 they would have been convincingly beaten by the GTR and resigned to history as just another car which didnt make the cut.

The corollary to that is that the Ph 3 only won Bathurst once, while the XA Hardtop won twice, yet the over the last few decades the Ph 3 commands more $$$ on the market.

Dr Terry

[minheim]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The corollary to that is that the Ph 3 only won Bathurst once, while the XA Hardtop won twice, yet the over the last few decades the Ph 3 commands more $$$ on the market.

Dr Terry

While that is true, the XA hardtop did not race as a series production car. The XA sedan race cars however were built to series production rules however. In any event, I love the XA shape and it is my favourite falcon.

[arronm]

My favorite is XA coupe too. Is any of us buying that race car, probably not, so who cares.

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by zoesgift

i agree Mick there is nothing shady about the provenance of the car at all.what is sketchy and more than likely always will be, beyond doubt, is which car is which in the racing scheme and potentially what is considered concourse correct on the ph4 and the prototypes. the great thing about this car is its crazy low mileage which is genuine. the owners of these cars are not short of coin and great people to boot so talking price is not really a going concern for the current owners its more the, "I'm getting a bit old now and these cars now need to be moved on to the next custodian" and an auction house is the best way for this to occur. the word tyre kicker would go to a never before seen level if you were trying to sell such a car yourself!!

I was always under the impression that this is XA-3, the spare/road car? Is that in doubt?

[zoesgift]

not necessarily....the one thing that is certain is the rallying ph4 is 100% identified as being the car that it is as it was issued with a cams logbook recording its chassis number. this has all been covered in one of the early aussie muscle car magazines. the part that I think is hazy is the "box 3 was in front of my car then they put box 1 in front of my car"....fact is they are both really important parts of our motoring heritage

[FairmontGS]

No-one disputes that they are significant XA GTs. It's a bit disturbing that the identity of this car is hazy though. I'd want a fairly cast-iron trail of provenance if I was shelling out for it, as no doubt, it will go for a pretty sum.

[Sioso]

Just spotted this Phase 3 that came up for sale this arvo:
https://www.australianmusclecarsales...tho-phase.html

[minheim]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Does anyone else find it ironic that a factory racecar which never even turned a wheel in the battle it was destined to dominate conjures up so much controversy.
So because they never made it to Bathurst in 72 they are worth millions, however, had they made it and the race unfolded as it had for the P3 they would have been convincingly beaten by the GTR and resigned to history as just another car which didnt make the cut.

I wouldn't be so sure of that GTR win. Holden hadn't run a v8 in series production for years and look what happened the first time they did in 1974 (under improved production regs) - they smoked more than a packet of Marlboro cigarettes before failing. Also an XU1 with a v8 would have been a handful under the rain in 1972 and whose to say it would have handled well. I fancy John French (falcon (2nd) or Chivas/Leo Geoghegan (chargers (3rd and 4th)would have grabbed the win. Also Gibson in 1977 commented when driving the prototype phase 4 that it was a much better car than the phase 3.

[dom_105]

I don't really see the issue with provenance.

Of course which one was actually designated XA-1 holds some interest, but at the end of the day all evidence suggests that when the plug was pulled on the program this car was the least developed of the three, the one that was finished by John Goss at McLeod Ford. Bowden has the only other racecar and it was the more developed of the two still in existence. And one car was smashed.

If you had proof it would be nice to have. But does it matter which one was 1 2 or 3?

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by minheim

I wouldn't be so sure of that GTR win. Holden hadn't run a v8 in series production for years and look what happened the first time they did in 1974 (under improved production regs) - they smoked more than a packet of Marlboro cigarettes before failing. Also an XU1 with a v8 would have been a handful under the rain in 1972 and whose to say it would have handled well. I fancy John French (falcon (2nd) or Chivas/Leo Geoghegan (chargers (3rd and 4th)would have grabbed the win. Also Gibson in 1977 commented when driving the prototype phase 4 that it was a much better car than the phase 3.

The myths surrounding the pace & reliability (or otherwise) of the LJ V8 in 1972 are many & varied.

A few facts though.

1. Harry had already run the car at Bathurst in the Easter event earlier that year in full race trim & it went very well. Larry Perkins drove it in a Sports Sedan race & it placed all against Porsches & the like.

2. The car weighed the same as the 6-cyl XU1 because he used a fibreglass bonnet, which made up for the relatively small weight difference between the 6 & the V8. It wasn't a front heavy pig, as many have said.

3. It had better brakes than the 6-cyl (thicker disc rotors).

4. It was better balanced than the 6-cyl, with the centre of gravity of the engine further back in the engine bay.

5. The 1974 L34 engines didn't actually 'fail'. The smoking problem was due the failure of the engine sump seal where Harry tried a 'home made' pseudo dry sump system. The sump leaked & sprayed engine oil all over the exhaust. You'll notice that those cars were still driving fast when they came into the pits smoking. Another engine died when it simply ran out of engine oil due to the sump leak.

6. They were 6 laps ahead of the opposition at half race distance in 1974 with the heavier LH body.

There are plenty of hard luck stories of the race that got away (both Ford & Holden) but this one will be debated forever.

Dr Terry

[Nikked]

Wonder if a V8 XU-1 could be used in TCM?

[zoesgift]

Originally Posted by Sioso

Just spotted this Phase 3 that came up for sale this arvo:
https://www.australianmusclecarsales...tho-phase.html

interesting history and an even more interesting compliance plate

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The myths surrounding the pace & reliability (or otherwise) of the LJ V8 in 1972 are many & varied.

A few facts though.

1. Harry had already run the car at Bathurst in the Easter event earlier that year in full race trim & it went very well. Larry Perkins drove it in a Sports Sedan race & it placed all against Porsches & the like.

2. The car weighed the same as the 6-cyl XU1 because he used a fibreglass bonnet, which made up for the relatively small weight difference between the 6 & the V8. It wasn't a front heavy pig, as many have said.

3. It had better brakes than the 6-cyl (thicker disc rotors).

4. It was better balanced than the 6-cyl, with the centre of gravity of the engine further back in the engine bay.

5. The 1974 L34 engines didn't actually 'fail'. The smoking problem was due the failure of the engine sump seal where Harry tried a 'home made' pseudo dry sump system. The sump leaked & sprayed engine oil all over the exhaust. You'll notice that those cars were still driving fast when they came into the pits smoking. Another engine died when it simply ran out of engine oil due to the sump leak.

6. They were 6 laps ahead of the opposition at half race distance in 1974 with the heavier LH body.

There are plenty of hard luck stories of the race that got away (both Ford & Holden) but this one will be debated forever.

Dr Terry

terrible little cars

[whitelion65]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

terrible little cars

PB, nasty is the word you are looking for ;-)

[pottery beige]

LJ V8 > P4

horrible little things

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by dom_105

I don't really see the issue with provenance.

Of course which one was actually designated XA-1 holds some interest, but at the end of the day all evidence suggests that when the plug was pulled on the program this car was the least developed of the three, the one that was finished by John Goss at McLeod Ford. Bowden has the only other racecar and it was the more developed of the two still in existence. And one car was smashed.

If you had proof it would be nice to have. But does it matter which one was 1 2 or 3?

Ummm well considering one was nearly a race car, another was written off and the other one was just a bog standard GT then I’d say yeah, it probably does matter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The myths surrounding the pace & reliability (or otherwise) of the LJ V8 in 1972 are many & varied.

A few facts though.

1. Harry had already run the car at Bathurst in the Easter event earlier that year in full race trim & it went very well. Larry Perkins drove it in a Sports Sedan race & it placed all against Porsches & the like.

2. The car weighed the same as the 6-cyl XU1 because he used a fibreglass bonnet, which made up for the relatively small weight difference between the 6 & the V8. It wasn't a front heavy pig, as many have said.

3. It had better brakes than the 6-cyl (thicker disc rotors).

4. It was better balanced than the 6-cyl, with the centre of gravity of the engine further back in the engine bay.

5. The 1974 L34 engines didn't actually 'fail'. The smoking problem was due the failure of the engine sump seal where Harry tried a 'home made' pseudo dry sump system. The sump leaked & sprayed engine oil all over the exhaust. You'll notice that those cars were still driving fast when they came into the pits smoking. Another engine died when it simply ran out of engine oil due to the sump leak.

6. They were 6 laps ahead of the opposition at half race distance in 1974 with the heavier LH body.

There are plenty of hard luck stories of the race that got away (both Ford & Holden) but this one will be debated forever.

Dr Terry

On Brocks car wasnt it a case of the Webber carbs not being synchronized properly?
And due to this a piston burnt out.
Anyway Firth had a bigger baffled sump for the V8 XU1, but GM in their non wisdom didnt use it for the L34.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

Ummm well considering one was nearly a race car, another was written off and the other one was just a bog standard GT then I’d say yeah, it probably does matter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry but your info is incorrect, all 3 including the spare were hand built, fully seam welded and fitted with roll cages, the 3 engines where blueprinted and all cars fitted with race prepped Detroit Lockers, the 2 that where further along in race prep where obviously fitted with more equipment.

The spare (bog standard GT ) had to be as ready as possible with only the minimal additions for it to be fit for racing, having to seam weld the whole body and fit a roll cage wouldn't make it much of a spare now would it?

Originally the plan was to have all 3 fully race prepped with the spare ready to go at the drop of a hat, as we now know this never happened with the axe falling and the preparation stopped immediately with the spare being the least race prepped, but as mentioned above, it had all the major construction requirements completed with the rest of the work been mainly bolt on stuff making it a long way from a bog standard XAGT...

It's this spare car that is for sale here....

[ozrunner]

If what you say is correct then wouldn't it be correct in saying that the fact sheet shown in front of this XA is BS as it was not one of the three but the spare ?

[ozrunner]

PS: Just dug out a 1987 edition of Super Ford magazine which has a concise writeup by the editor with pictures of all the Ph4's with ID's etc etc and their history and ownership to that date.

This one is listed and was sent to McLeod Ford for John Goss and at a glance it does appear to be one of the 3 but I will need to read the whole mag to get clarification.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

If what you say is correct then wouldn't it be correct in saying that the fact sheet shown in front of this XA is BS as it was not one of the three but the spare ?

There was only 3 race cars, 2 to race initially and a third (this one) for back up should one of those racing pile up, none of the cars where totally finished for racing with this one been the least prepared.....it is one of the 3....

[ozrunner]

Well that was a nostalgic read after last reading this mag in 1987

In short this P4 would appear to be ridgy didge but the mag only covers up to 1987.

The 3 racing prototype versions were painted Brambles Red also referred to as Bushfire Red. The three were supplied by Ford to the following. John Goss, Bruce Hodgson and Keith Goodhall. The vins are:

JG33MC78429K - Given to Keith Goodhall

It was the most completed P4 at that time. It was supplied to Goodhall by Ford with rally suspension as he did rallying. On a trip to Darwin it also dropped two pushrods and repairs were half hearted.

David Bowden brought it from Keith Goodhall.

It appears he then sold it to Kim Rane who drag raced it but he overcooked it at 8000rpm and she threw a rod. The engine was rebuilt using another block so its total originality was now gone. It also lost its original eared sump presuambly as it was also damaged.

Bowden then repurchased it from Rane in 1980 but indicates it was in poor shape and the engine was not nice so it was rebuilt again.

It was subsequently sold it to Rod Mann with an option of first refusal if he decided to sell it later.

She's had a few changes from original

JG33MC78488K - Given to Bruce Hodgson

Bruce also rallied the crap out of this old girl. In 1985 he sold it to Bob Fletcher. Fletcher removed its P4 engine for use in his son's speedboat who later broke a bridge to bridge ski race. A normal GT engine was fitted in its place.

A popular mith concerning its eventual demise was that Hodgson sold it to a dude who wrote it off on his first drive.

It met its demise as Fletcher had sold it and that person hit an out of control caravan being towed by a Commodore and it barrel rolled etc etc and ended up on its roof destroyed.

Hodgson ended up buying the wreck but sold off most off its remaining parts so she was no more but he kept its vin plate .

JG33MC83054K - J Hemphil and Sons

Ended up with the Dentist which is well known.

Now the one advertised.

JG33MC78489K - Given to McLeod Ford for John Goss

Sold to D Matherson in 1974 then to Barry Bassingthwaighte in 1977 who sold it 5 weeks later to Lester Good . It was then resold by Bassingthwaighte on consignment to Kenneth Dawson in 1978. No exact info on who did but it seems it was then given to a used car dealer John H on consignment but he decided to purchase it in late 1978.

An interesting fact concerning indentification of this one and the Goodhall P4 was that although it was apparently against the rules, Howard Marsden had an alloy panel welded in behind the back seats so as to give further protection to his drivers to separate them from the huge fuel tank. But in addition this one advertised should also have an alloy plate in place of the parcel shelf.

There's a lot more additional info and some hilarious facts on their useage but given this info it would seem this P4 being advertised is indeed legit, if it still also has those alloy panels

One other interesting picture is of a P3 that was basically secret as it had been fitted with all the P4 running gear as a test mule. I wonder if it was later stripped or someone also ended up with it and doesn't know

[HO 3]

Originally Posted by zoesgift

interesting history and an even more interesting compliance plate

I remember that old basher, ex Perth car.......

Cheers Mick

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Well that was a nostalgic read after last reading this mag in 1987

In short this P4 would appear to be ridgy didge but the mag only covers up to 1987.

The 3 racing prototype versions were painted Brambles Red also referred to as Bushfire Red. The three were supplied by Ford to the following. John Goss, Bruce Hodgson and Keith Goodhall. The vins are:

JG33MC78429K - Given to Keith Goodhall

It was the most completed P4 at that time. It was supplied to Goodhall by Ford with rally suspension as he did rallying. On a trip to Darwin it also dropped two pushrods and repairs were half hearted.

David Bowden brought it from Keith Goodhall.

It appears he then sold it to Kim Rane who drag raced it but he overcooked it at 8000rpm and she threw a rod. The engine was rebuilt using another block so its total originality was now gone. It also lost its original eared sump presuambly as it was also damaged.

Bowden then repurchased it from Rane in 1980 but indicates it was in poor shape and the engine was not nice so it was rebuilt again.

It was subsequently sold it to Rod Mann with an option of first refusal if he decided to sell it later.

She's had a few changes from original

JG33MC78488K - Given to Bruce Hodgson

Bruce also rallied the crap out of this old girl. In 1985 he sold it to Bob Fletcher. Fletcher removed its P4 engine for use in his son's speedboat who later broke a bridge to bridge ski race. A normal GT engine was fitted in its place.

A popular mith concerning its eventual demise was that Hodgson sold it to a dude who wrote it off on his first drive.

It met its demise as Fletcher had sold it and that person hit an out of control caravan being towed by a Commodore and it barrel rolled etc etc and ended up on its roof destroyed.

Hodgson ended up buying the wreck but sold off most off its remaining parts so she was no more but he kept its vin plate .

JG33MC83054K - J Hemphil and Sons

Ended up with the Dentist which is well known.

Now the one advertised.

JG33MC78489K - Given to McLeod Ford for John Goss

Sold to D Matherson in 1974 then to Barry Bassingthwaighte in 1977 who sold it 5 weeks later to Lester Good . It was then resold by Bassingthwaighte on consignment to Kenneth Dawson in 1978. No exact info on who did but it seems it was then given to a used car dealer John H on consignment but he decided to purchase it in late 1978.

An interesting fact concerning indentification of this one and the Goodhall P4 was that although it was apparently against the rules, Howard Marsden had an alloy panel welded in behind the back seats so as to give further protection to his drivers to separate them from the huge fuel tank. But in addition this one advertised should also have an alloy plate in place of the parcel shelf.

There's a lot more additional info and some hilarious facts on their useage but given this info it would seem this P4 being advertised is indeed legit, if it still also has those alloy panels

One other interesting picture is of a P3 that was basically secret as it had been fitted with all the P4 running gear as a test mule. I wonder if it was later stripped or someone also ended up with it and doesn't know

Dave Bowden re-purchased his and still owns today.....if you or anyone wants to know the whole story of the 3 race cars to date go and visit the Bowden collection, they have the most complete documentation of the cars in question (thats where John Wright of Super Ford magazine got a lot/most of the info for the article back in the day) and they are quite happy to pass on the info, fantastic collection and well worth the visit when they have an open day....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBnRqgg_VKE

Part of the article from Super Ford....

http://www.gtho4.com/The-Final-Finest-Phase-1987.pdf

[GTLEGEND]

Did anyone notice that this car in the auction is Lot 6!!

Lot 6 Mahoneys Rd is where these cars were really born. I wonder if that is coincidence or planned.

[fgpsi]

only the green one is real