The Camping Thread

[BENT_8]

I received my regular Snowy's email today and it includes an episode on 12v systems. Its a bit hard to follow as they use an analogy of rain, water tank and sprinkler to explain power generation, storage and consumption and find themselves flip flopping backwards and forwards between ah's and litres of water but the main points of how to pick the right componants for your particular needs and in what order is sound.
1, Work out consumption, 2, choose a battery which has enough capacity to keep up and 3, choose a panel big enough to fill it asap.
More 'in depth' episodes to follow.

Worth a listen if you can find it.

[sgt_doofey]

4wd Super Centre do a series of videos on it too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t6I...F0vAJarFz_fFgs

4wd 24/7 also have some videos on 12v systems, probably more geared towards the 4wd scene, but still plenty of info there too. Doesn't look like they have a playlist for that stuff so you're probably going to have to go and search for their vids on it.
E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRmadnYU-mE

Edit: This is probably a better search: https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...4wd+24%2F7+12v

[Trevor 57]

Using the water analogy is quite common when talking about power as the flow and pressure is similar

[blueoval]

Thanks heaps lads. Some weekend reading I'll do to get myself up to speed with this tech. Appreciate it.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Using the water analogy is quite common when talking about power as the flow and pressure is similar

Sure is Trev, and if it were one person relaying it i think it would have presented easier to follow but with the two of them discussing it, first half a sentence referred to ah's and then they'd finish off with litres and then go back again.
The principal makes perfect sense, the delivery was lacking.

[raised by monkeys]

Been doing a little reading. Am i right that i cun run solar panels into a smart solar controller and monitor usage/recharge with a BMS and convert 12v to 240v using an inverter?

I have an AGM battery at home, a 100 or 120ha, may need to buy a second, but i need to work out roughly how much power we will be drawing. Ill be converting all lighting to LED's. I will install a TV too.
We do plan on installing an AC but that may draw too much power when off grid.

was looking at this example as a guide, but the red arc gear is quite expensive.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by raised by monkeys

Been doing a little reading. Am i right that i cun run solar panels into a smart solar controller and monitor usage/recharge with a BMS and convert 12v to 240v using an inverter?

I have an AGM battery at home, a 100 or 120ha, may need to buy a second, but i need to work out roughly how much power we will be drawing. Ill be converting all lighting to LED's. I will install a TV too.
We do plan on installing an AC but that may draw too much power when off grid.

was looking at this example as a guide, but the red arc gear is quite expensive.

You are right.

We run two solar panels into a controller and have two 100ah batteries.

We run a 12v fridge, tv / dvd , lights (all led) and we have a 12v hot water system.

I'll post up some pics tonight.

[raised by monkeys]

interested in the hot water system. Does that mean you run 2 taps or a mixer?
Im trying not to go overboard, and could just as happy boil water and add to the sink for dishes and camp shower.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by raised by monkeys

interested in the hot water system. Does that mean you run 2 taps or a mixer?
Im trying not to go overboard, and could just as happy boil water and add to the sink for dishes and camp shower.

The hot water system is for showering only as it takes a few hours to get to operating temp off 12v (which needs to be planned in terms of power use). It only holds 10l too, so quick showers are in order...

We boil water to do the dishes.

If I did it over, I would install a gas hot water system.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by raised by monkeys

Been doing a little reading. Am i right that i cun run solar panels into a smart solar controller and monitor usage/recharge with a BMS and convert 12v to 240v using an inverter?

I have an AGM battery at home, a 100 or 120ha, may need to buy a second, but i need to work out roughly how much power we will be drawing. Ill be converting all lighting to LED's. I will install a TV too.
We do plan on installing an AC but that may draw too much power when off grid.

was looking at this example as a guide, but the red arc gear is quite expensive.

You can, but you need to realise that everything has its limitations and converting 12v to 240v via an inverter will only provide you with so much as many 240v appliaces draw heaps of watts and will leave you with a depleted battery in no time, i doubt you'll be running an A/C long enough to be effective if at all.
Ontop of that, buying everything as individual items, battery box, dc-dc charger, invertor etc. soon adds up which is what was explained to me when i first investigated it and why i went down the Arkpak route as its all included in one easy to move/install package.
It has its limitations, one being only a 300w inverter, but that will run smaller 240v items and wont have you killing your $300 battery in the first 10 minutes.

For off grid use you really need to work out whats important to use and what you can do without before you start getting big idea's and spending even more only to discover it isnt that easy.

Also, just looking at that link you provided, its ok to throw in 2 lithium batteries, a charger, an invertor and 4 panels on the roof but ALL of that reduces your available payload for other items like food, clothing, dinner and cookware, utensils etc. etc. so you need to workout your available weight capacities

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by raised by monkeys

interested in the hot water system. Does that mean you run 2 taps or a mixer?
Im trying not to go overboard, and could just as happy boil water and add to the sink for dishes and camp shower.

You can have both or a mixer depending on space but personally if youre looking at off grid applications id go built in gas, or even better as it allows for ease of manouvrability, a good quality portable setup like a Joolca Hot tap etc.
I just boil water in our van as im not prepared to start chopping up the walls and interior.
I also have a portable gas hot water system for showering and keep it away from the van to avoid making a mess around it.

[.:4:.]

What about a petrol generator to plug into the shore power van inlet for 240v stuff, and use the 12v for lighting? On site at my old job we would use a portable honda genny to power lights and things like power tools and it was quiet and wouldnt use much fuel over 12 hours of getting worked pretty hard. So you'd only really need to run it when you need 240v. If the stuff like lighting is 12v, the battery can do that, also if say you have an overcast day and a solar setup wont charge the battery, a 240v battery charger could be used.

[Beastie]

A few pics from our resto.

Solar Panels




Solar Controller




Hot Water System




To Sink



To Ensuite



Water Tank (80ltrs)



12V Fridge / Freezer




And the finished product (well alomost)...









It's a pretty basic caravan, but it does the job for us. We won't be travelling around Aus in it, but it's great for a couple of weeks away.

We've done a few trips to QLD & VIC and our next trip is planned for the South Coast of NSW.

[prydey]

Looking very smart Beastie, nice work.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by prydey

Looking very smart Beastie, nice work.

Thanks Mate.

We are happy with it and considering it looked like this when we bought it...

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

What about a petrol generator to plug into the shore power van inlet for 240v stuff, and use the 12v for lighting? On site at my old job we would use a portable honda genny to power lights and things like power tools and it was quiet and wouldnt use much fuel over 12 hours of getting worked pretty hard. So you'd only really need to run it when you need 240v. If the stuff like lighting is 12v, the battery can do that, also if say you have an overcast day and a solar setup wont charge the battery, a 240v battery charger could be used.

Problem with generators is that considerate people don’t run them after dark or maybe 7.pm during summer.A 240v pulls over 2000w so you nearly need something like a Honda E30i which comes at a cost in excess of $3000.On a hot night even with 3 kva you couldn’t run an AC unit and boil a kettle or make toast at the same time.

[prydey]

On the topic of inverters, I recently looked in to what I'd need to run a small pod machine. Aldi are doing 100ah batteries for $199, and I thought it might be a good opportunity to increase my battery capacity given I've just bought a 110ah. Best to pair batteries when they are both new.

I asked the place I got my battery from and it can be done, even on a single battery. Given the very short run time of a pod machine, the draw on the battery is high but total capacity used is bugger all. I was recommended to run at least a 1600w inverter as close to the battery as possible using good thick cable. (0awg)
Now inverters that size aren't cheap but quite a few members on caravanners forum have used cheap ebay ones (around $250 for 2000w continuous pure sine wave) for many years without problems.

This is based on the fact that the appliances would be around 1400w or less and used sparingly, once or twice a day.

I have 200w solar panel so battery would be replenished comfortably.

Not sure if I will go ahead with something like that. It was more out of curiosity as to whether it was possible. Of course everyone's situation is different and it depends what other loads you have on your battery.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

What about a petrol generator to plug into the shore power van inlet for 240v stuff, and use the 12v for lighting? On site at my old job we would use a portable honda genny to power lights and things like power tools and it was quiet and wouldnt use much fuel over 12 hours of getting worked pretty hard. So you'd only really need to run it when you need 240v. If the stuff like lighting is 12v, the battery can do that, also if say you have an overcast day and a solar setup wont charge the battery, a 240v battery charger could be used.

So long as your aware of regulations for where ever youre camping as some places, national parks etc. dont allow gen sets as if everyone was running them the noise would add up.

[Beastie]

Prydey, It comes down to usage like you said (a bit like our hot water system). If you use your high current draw appliances in the morning, then the battery / batteries have all day to receive a charge from the solar panels and be topped up for overnight.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Beastie

A few pics from our resto.

Solar Panels

image
image

Solar Controller

image
image

Hot Water System

image
image

To Sink

image

To Ensuite

image

Water Tank (80ltrs)

image

12V Fridge / Freezer

image
image

And the finished product (well alomost)...

image
image
image
image
image
image
image

It's a pretty basic caravan, but it does the job for us. We won't be travelling around Aus in it, but it's great for a couple of weeks away.

We've done a few trips to QLD & VIC and our next trip is planned for the South Coast of NSW.

Good work mate but youre a braver man than me drilling holes in the roof, especially those 4 side brackets which look like theyre in the troughs where water will pool.
People often mount them on frames and limit the roof holes.

Working in a van yard ive seen so many that have eventually leaked through and ruined ceilings.
when we were looking for a van we found a nice 1 owner, but whoever had replaced the awning guide on the pop top positioned it too far in and so the tek screws went on the inside of the skirt, didnt penetrate the inside ceiling skin but leaked through and destroyed the pannelling after only 2yrs.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Good work mate but youre a braver man than me drilling holes in the roof, especially those 4 side brackets which look like theyre in the troughs where water will pool.
People often mount them on frames and limit the roof holes.

Working in a van yard ive seen so many that have eventually leaked through and ruined ceilings.
when we were looking for a van we found a nice 1 owner, but whoever had replaced the awning guide on the pop top positioned it too far in and so the tek screws went on the inside of the skirt, didnt penetrate the inside ceiling skin but leaked through and destroyed the pannelling after only 2yrs.

Sometimes you just have to take the plunge. You've got no idea how much silicon I used...

We have had it for 3 years now and so far so good, including the recent week long drenching we had in NSW.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Beastie

Prydey, It comes down to usage like you said (a bit like our hot water system). If you use your high current draw appliances in the morning, then the battery / batteries have all day to receive a charge from the solar panels and be topped up for overnight.

It was explained to me that while the current draw is high, the drain on the battery for one coffee would be 1-2ah. The size of the cables to the inverter is critical though, given the current load. Hence keeping them short and 4AWG minimum, preferably 0AWG.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Beastie

Sometimes you just have to take the plunge. You've got no idea how much silicon I used...

We have had it for 3 years now and so far so good, including the recent week long drenching we had in NSW.

Not doubting your work brother, been considering doing it myself, just cant pull the trigger on holing the roof with the things ive seen.
Even the silicone used can be critical so im told, the wrong type can cause other problems. That may just be an upsell thing that van repairers claim but not something id gamble with so if i ever go ahead with it i'll be paying their overs for what probably is just normal stuff in a fancy packet.

[raised by monkeys]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

You can, but you need to realise that everything has its limitations and converting 12v to 240v via an inverter will only provide you with so much as many 240v appliaces draw heaps of watts and will leave you with a depleted battery in no time, i doubt you'll be running an A/C long enough to be effective if at all.
Ontop of that, buying everything as individual items, battery box, dc-dc charger, invertor etc. soon adds up which is what was explained to me when i first investigated it and why i went down the Arkpak route as its all included in one easy to move/install package.
It has its limitations, one being only a 300w inverter, but that will run smaller 240v items and wont have you killing your $300 battery in the first 10 minutes.

For off grid use you really need to work out whats important to use and what you can do without before you start getting big idea's and spending even more only to discover it isnt that easy.

Also, just looking at that link you provided, its ok to throw in 2 lithium batteries, a charger, an invertor and 4 panels on the roof but ALL of that reduces your available payload for other items like food, clothing, dinner and cookware, utensils etc. etc. so you need to workout your available weight capacities

We dont plan on running an AC off 1 or 2 batteries. We would only be using an AC on mains power at a park. The biggest 240v would be TV, if i don't convert to 12v, and fridge. Maybe something on charge but not likely.

I'll be sure to keep weight in the back of my mind.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by raised by monkeys

We dont plan on running an AC off 1 or 2 batteries. We would only be using an AC on mains power at a park. The biggest 240v would be TV, if i don't convert to 12v, and fridge. Maybe something on charge but not likely.

I'll be sure to keep weight in the back of my mind.

This is very important as is weight distribution. I didn't post a pic of my batteries, but at 33kg each, I have them mounted over the axle with one on either side of the van.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by raised by monkeys

We dont plan on running an AC off 1 or 2 batteries. We would only be using an AC on mains power at a park. The biggest 240v would be TV, if i don't convert to 12v, and fridge. Maybe something on charge but not likely.

I'll be sure to keep weight in the back of my mind.

12v compressor fridges are very efficient these days but hard to beat a two way or three way fridge for versatility.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Beastie

This is very important as is weight distribution. I didn't post a pic of my batteries, but at 33kg each, I have them mounted over the axle with one on either side of the van.

Doesnt take much either, the people who owned our van had fitted a shallow but 1m long checker plate box on the back as theres no room up front.
Great for storage but loaded with anything other than our BabyQ stand , awning anti flap kit and hoses/power cord and it seriously effects the way it tows, not to mention what it cuts into payload.
I've gradually moved things like the battery permenantly and table, tv, forward of the axle line during transport which has fixed the towing issue and am still in 2 minds whether to ditch the storage box altogether.
Only reason i havent yet is it doubles as support for the foldout rear bed base and as were both a bit tubby it has its benefits.
Im taking it in for a wheel alignment soon and want to get the springs reset as the door side is 20mm lower so the plan is to discuss an axle weight upgrade.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by prydey

12v compressor fridges are very efficient these days but hard to beat a two way or three way fridge for versatility.

Agreed, if anything goes wrong with your 12v supply atleast with a 2 or3way you can run it on gas, although a naked flame burning away inside a timber/ tin box leaves me uneasy come bedtime..lol
Doesnt happen often but if you knew my luck you'd understand.

[Trevor 57]

that is why we run a CO meter in the van, they cost about $60 from Bunnings or Annaconda. If you are running anything gas or diesel in an enlcosed space, even though that it should be exhausting outside, you need to have one

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

that is why we run a CO meter in the van, they cost about $60 from Bunnings or Annaconda. If you are running anything gas or diesel in an enlcosed space, even though that it should be exhausting outside, you need to have one

Thanks Trev, might call down the local Bunnings and grab one this afternoon.
Cheap insurance really.