All things Solar (merged threads)

[xisled]

Interesting today at work. I turned up to an email with a report in to the solar industry, after the Gov changes the buy back in Vic. They say that 75%of installers will go bust within next 3 months. It will be the big guys that are left.

Not sure if it is true or not, or someone just spreading ****.

[poppa smurf]

yep I heard the same about 6 months ago.......I know of at least 3 that have added solar as a sideline to their existing business

a lot will fall but I think solar is here for the long term but where you buy it will change

which is a worry for warranties

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by ute83

The price is $23 a tonne until 01/07/2013 when it goes up about a dollar. It does not go up and down during the year. I don't know where you get the $30 from.

I actually did my homework based on what I have been charged in my 2 latest account's

given it is stated in large bold letters that the latest increase is directly attributed to the carbon pricing then this is what I accounted for as relates to me

the carbon generated by me and charged by my retailer to me equates to exactly $32.34c per tonne

I worked this out by adding up the amount of carbon I am supposed to be producing divided by the amount of increase charged by my retailer

perhaps you should do the same to work out what you are actually being charged and not what the guvment is stating being charged or how it is going to "float" on the open market

in the meantime my panels are producing very nicely and I am producing negative carbon yet still being charged the going rate

HMMmmm!!!! something not right here......paying for carbon that I am not producing

[ute83]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I actually did my homework based on what I have been charged in my 2 latest account's

given it is stated in large bold letters that the latest increase is directly attributed to the carbon pricing then this is what I accounted for as relates to me

the carbon generated by me and charged by my retailer to me equates to exactly $32.34c per tonne

I worked this out by adding up the amount of carbon I am supposed to be producing divided by the amount of increase charged by my retailer

perhaps you should do the same to work out what you are actually being charged and not what the guvment is stating being charged or how it is going to "float" on the open market

in the meantime my panels are producing very nicely and I am producing negative carbon yet still being charged the going rate

HMMmmm!!!! something not right here......paying for carbon that I am not producing

The figures that I posted are the LAW. If you believe that you are paying above this FIXED amount you should be talking to the ACCC for an explaination

[mickyyyy]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

yep I heard the same about 6 months ago.......I know of at least 3 that have added solar as a sideline to their existing business

a lot will fall but I think solar is here for the long term but where you buy it will change

which is a worry for warranties

This is my only concern right now and trying to pick an business to install the brand's that i think will stand for a while...

I think a solar company backed up a bigger company like Bradford solar who is backed by CSR, is the best way to go right now... But again things can happen but as long as the solar panel and inverter company, are here in Australia you are ok. if anything you have to pay for labour to replace panel/inverter if installer goes bust!!!

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by ute83

The figures that I posted are the LAW. If you believe that you are paying above this FIXED amount you should be talking to the ACCC for an explaination

if you believe that then so be it!.......I dont believe that i am paying above the amount, I bloody well know I am

good luck with getting an answer from the ACCC or the department for fair trading or even consumer affairs, I know, i've tried

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by mickyyyy

This is my only concern right now and trying to pick an business to install the brand's that i think will stand for a while...

I think a solar company backed up a bigger company like Bradford solar who is backed by CSR, is the best way to go right now... But again things can happen but as long as the solar panel and inverter company, are here in Australia you are ok. if anything you have to pay for labour to replace panel/inverter if installer goes bust!!!

yep! as i stated before, all we can do is go to a company that has been and is looking like it is going to be around a while, buy reputable stuff and cross our fingers

to have a 25 year warranty is one thing, to have the company to back it up is another

to be honest I really havent heard of that many folks having trouble with their solar.....maybe a few inverters that have failed in their early life that are quickly replaced but I dont reckon there is too much to go wrong with a panel

but I guess the answer may be different if you ask me in 25 years......but then again technology will have advanced and we will have a doolackey the size of a teapot producing endless energy and solar will be laughed at

[prydey]

it seems most of the warranties are actually connected to the manufacturer so even if the company that sold you the system goes bust, the warranty should still stand. the testing part will be if you have to make a claim... as far as i know, no panels are made in australia, so regardless of which panels you choose, if the local mob go bust, you will be dealing with an offshore company. even if they don't go bust, the warranty is still provided by the manufacturer so the local guy will probably give it the big handball.

as for 25years time, the roof tiles will be solar by then, and batteries to store energy on your property will be safe and be the size of a letterbox!!

[mickyyyy]

Originally Posted by prydey

it seems most of the warranties are actually connected to the manufacturer so even if the company that sold you the system goes bust, the warranty should still stand. the testing part will be if you have to make a claim... as far as i know, no panels are made in australia, so regardless of which panels you choose, if the local mob go bust, you will be dealing with an offshore company. even if they don't go bust, the warranty is still provided by the manufacturer so the local guy will probably give it the big handball.

as for 25years time, the roof tiles will be solar by then, and batteries to store energy on your property will be safe and be the size of a letterbox!!

The issue is if the business goes bust and you have local support the problem is, that more than likely they will charge you labour to replace panel/inverter which sucks... but i guess at least its being covered by warranty...

[poppa smurf]

I have no idea how an "out of country" warranty claim would work or if it even would, I guess tracking down the manufacturer would be the starting point then negotiating with a "local" sales outlet

perhaps another approach may be to contact an outlet of that particular product

either way I can see nothing but headaches coming from that!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by mickyyyy

The issue is if the business goes bust and you have local support the problem is, that more than likely they will charge you labour to replace panel/inverter which sucks... but i guess at least its being covered by warranty...

labor costs are part of warranty.

i bought a car from mt gambier. it needed a repair under warranty. obviously i don't need to take the car back to the dealer, i just took it 5 mins down the road to the ford dealer, they fixed it, and invoiced the car dealer.

same with most warranties. you make a claim, they organise someone for you to contact, or someone to come around and you don't pay.


i'm not too concerned personally. i used a company that many said were dodgy etc, i have cheap chinese panels that at least one member on here said were rubbish, and i have a cheap chinese inverter too. personally, i can't fault the actual install. the work on the roof is very good and its not that hard to hang an inverter off the wall. all the wiring is well routed and insulated etc. the warranties are the same as the more expensive items so i'm happy so far.

will it come back to bite me, choosing a system based on price? time will tell i guess. i was prepared to take the risk.

i guess its all up to the individual. this industry is changing at a fairly rapid rate, so what applies today may be meaningless in a years time.

[Noddy]

PS after waiting a couple of mths for my system install to filter down the line with energy matters its finally being installed tomorrow. I'm slightly apprehensive but generally excited to have the works carried out.

Hopefully it will be done with care and skill in equal combination and no issues arise because of a rushed/incompetent install.

Fingers crossed....

[genebaby]

Originally Posted by mickyyyy

The issue is if the business goes bust and you have local support the problem is, that more than likely they will charge you labour to replace panel/inverter which sucks... but i guess at least its being covered by warranty...

This is why I went with Origin for my system. They don't supply electricity to my area but I figure they'll be around for a while too, as solar is not the only thing they do.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by xisled

Interesting today at work. I turned up to an email with a report in to the solar industry, after the Gov changes the buy back in Vic. They say that 75%of installers will go bust within next 3 months. It will be the big guys that are left.

Not sure if it is true or not, or someone just spreading ****.

Almost true, Sunwiz Consulting and industry analyzers believe it's 40% of companies within 6 months, including larger companies. What is believed to be happening is as government incentives are disappearing, it will be businesses packing up and moving onto the next cash cow, rather than actually going into administration.

Originally Posted by prydey

it seems most of the warranties are actually connected to the manufacturer so even if the company that sold you the system goes bust, the warranty should still stand. the testing part will be if you have to make a claim... as far as i know, no panels are made in australia, so regardless of which panels you choose, if the local mob go bust, you will be dealing with an offshore company. even if they don't go bust, the warranty is still provided by the manufacturer so the local guy will probably give it the big handball.

as for 25years time, the roof tiles will be solar by then, and batteries to store energy on your property will be safe and be the size of a letterbox!!

True, all product warranties are always directly connected to a manufacturer either directly or through a third party. We back our product warranties in Melbourne, however after the customer claim has been finalised we still make a claim with the manufacturer direct so we are not out of pocket for any faults.

Also true, no panels are manufactured in Australia although there have been a few that started here and could not compete with China in terms of price. Notable manufacturers are BP, Silex, and Tindo Solar.

It is also an advantage to purchase a system brand with offices within Australia, so that is a retailer does go into administration the manufacturer has an office within Australia. Such as SunPower, whose Australian head office is in Belmont WA, and Trina Solar, whose head office is in Silverwater NSW. Should a retailer go bust you can still make claims dealing with someone in Australia.

Solar roof tiles already exist and are very popular in the US, and as for batteries, don a quick google search of "Bloom Box" or "Flywheel Battery", and you'll see that power storage for 30+ homes for the size of a 44 gallon drum!

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I have no idea how an "out of country" warranty claim would work or if it even would, I guess tracking down the manufacturer would be the starting point then negotiating with a "local" sales outlet

perhaps another approach may be to contact an outlet of that particular product

either way I can see nothing but headaches coming from that!

You would be surprised Poppa, a lot of people have been stung with out of country warranty claims. What most people do not know either is that a brand of panel overseas can subcontract to factories, and warranties are backed by the manufacturer rather than the brand, making it almost impossible to make a claim, because the panels came from some unknown factory in Zheijiang.

Cheaper panels have this problem all the time, again, they're cheaper for a reason..

[poppa smurf]

yeah! you're right,.....I guess I wouldn't know how or if the warranty would work until I had to test it out.....hopefully i dont and if I do hopefully it is easy

if the system failed it would be either one panel (cant see any more than that having a fault) or the inverter......in which case I would just buy another panel ($450 or thereabouts) or another inverter, cost unknown but probably around the $500 mark

the system would have already saved me more than that

as far as solar tiles go, apparently they are available here....I dont know where to get them but I have heard of them being for sale here

I was quoted for a set of Batteries and a generator to take me "off grid".....the whole setup, including charger/inverter would take up the footprint of my TV antenna, roughly 8 feet square

$10,000.00 was the figure to go totally free

my neighbour went Chinese with his system's (one here and another in his main house in Adelaide) I have to say they are working very well.....how long is an unknown of course but thats the chance we all take when we buy anything

oh! and something else that made me smile

the brother in law done a "monkey see, monkey do" and had panels placed on his roof

he was out watching "as you do"......found a tek bit on the ground, asked the young installer if it was his and he said yep, chuck it up......he misgrabbed and it went into a panel and broke it.....warranty job even before the system was up and running

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

yeah! you're right,.....I guess I wouldn't know how or if the warranty would work until I had to test it out.....hopefully i dont and if I do hopefully it is easy

if the system failed it would be either one panel (cant see any more than that having a fault) or the inverter......in which case I would just buy another panel ($450 or thereabouts) or another inverter, cost unknown but probably around the $500 mark

the system would have already saved me more than that

as far as solar tiles go, apparently they are available here....I dont know where to get them but I have heard of them being for sale here

I was quoted for a set of Batteries and a generator to take me "off grid".....the whole setup, including charger/inverter would take up the footprint of my TV antenna, roughly 8 feet square

$10,000.00 was the figure to go totally free

my neighbour went Chinese with his system's (one here and another in his main house in Adelaide) I have to say they are working very well.....how long is an unknown of course but thats the chance we all take when we buy anything

oh! and something else that made me smile

the brother in law done a "monkey see, monkey do" and had panels placed on his roof

he was out watching "as you do"......found a tek bit on the ground, asked the young installer if it was his and he said yep, chuck it up......he misgrabbed and it went into a panel and broke it.....warranty job even before the system was up and running

For REC solar it shouldn't be too bad, Energy Matters may well take on the responsibility of the warranty and then make the claim themselves i.e. you replace your panel through them, they then follow up and make the claim directly with the manufacturer, guess a phone call won't hurt if you want to know.

If a panel fails the system voltage will drop, and the inverter (depending on if it is a high quality inverter) will sense the voltage drop and basically start flashing and/or beeping, indicating that a panel has failed. If the inverter fails, the system will essentially completely shut down and pretty obvious to tell when that is the case, basically full sun but no power.

Panels should be around that price, anywhere from about $400 to $900 depending on which panel. Inverter can be say anywhere from about $700 for a bottom of the line chinese 1.5kW, and an SMA 5000TL is about $3500 so can really vary in price for the inverter depending on size and brand.

Solar shingles are available in Australia, a mob in Queensland is manufacturing them, although I'm not sure if they have CEC accreditation yet or not. Also they aren't the elegant solar shingles that SunPower are making, but more kind of an extra large tile with mono cells on the tile. Personally I wouldn't go for solar shingles just yet, because when you have a pensl of about 3W wired to hundreds of others rather than a 250W panel with say 16 of them, hundreds of smaller panels operate a lot hotter and the voltage drops, it also reduces the life of the cells, so at the moment your standard solar panels are still the better technology.

$10,000 to go totally off grid isn't bad.. That of course wasn't including the cost of the panels, I priced up a 2kW off the grid in Rural VIC and the price came out at about $25,000, and that was a pretty standard price for that, $10k seems disturbingly low...


Funny about the brother in law, did he go through the same installer or did he do much gomework into the companies he was getting quotes from?




I just had a meeting and here in Victoria CEC has just changed the laws about Conduit.. All DC conduit must be run in bright orange conduit (which will stick out like dogs balls IMO), but it is just in case anyone has to work on the homes wiring during a blackout they are aware which cable is the PV cable, so if the sun is shining they won't get any electric shock. Interestingly, this is going to see a lot of the cheaper guys either increase their prices or pack up and go, because the conduit is going to be a lot more expensive and they cannot clip external conduit on all jobs i.e. installation price will be increasing for the cheaper guys but the bigger guys like energy matters or solargain will keep their same price because they complete a higher quality installation anyway.

Industry is changing and quality control is improving, these cheaper guys will start dropping off!!

[AD07]

I had an Inverter (Sunteams) fail 2 weeks ago. It hadnt been in for even 2 years. But these things happen......
The company, Solargen (frim Vic), who installed my system have since gone bust.
Luckily, i rang a local guy, Paul at Maitland Solar & he fixed my issues. He came and scanned all my paperwork (on a Saturday morning), chased up the Aust importer of these inverters & sourced a new one. He got one of he's installers to fit it & make sure all was ok, & all this was done in a week.
All this for a grand total of $160. (he tried to claim th labour charge back on Sunteams, but had no luck)

I can say i was very impressed with his service (especially when i didnt buy the system off him) & would recommend him to anyone.

Adam.

[Stagg]

Will also interest people to know that Aerosharp have a 25% fail rate new from the box that they have not fixed since 2009, still have the same fail rate.

Growatt is even worse than that but I'm not sure of their exact fail rate, it's between 30% and 40%.

SMA even has a fail rate of 2%

[poppa smurf]

HMMmm! inverter is dearer than I thought.....hope mine goes the distance

the silly brother in law went with a mob that I rejected out of hand, they are a mob of shonks and took him for a ride.....

he didnt do any research...this mob repointed his roof and painted the roof plus the solar install (5 KW) for $20,000.00

thats the trouble with some folks, they know everything and wont listen to anyone else.....doomed to pay top rates for second rate stuff all their life

the quote that I got was only for the batteries, generator and inverter/charger......no solar system at all.......I got that from a real top bloke in Clare who sells systems

funnily enough I went in to enquire about solar hot water.....he had a set of glass tubes in the window that intrigued me

we ended up talking for over an hour.....real nice feller

originally i paid $750 for my R.E.C. 250 watt panels.....I had a look at EM solars website a little while ago and I see they are out for about the $400 - $450 mark (cant remember exactly)

I have a "spot" on my roof where i could squeeze another in.....I will wait for a while and I think i will make one "magically" appear

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I have a "spot" on my roof where i could squeeze another in.....I will wait for a while and I think i will make one "magically" appear

I wish I had solar panels magically appear on my roof...

[poppa smurf]

ah anything is possible.......with the right amount of cash.....my problem is that I have signed up with ETSA for a 3.5 kilowatt system

I would lose my FIT if I were found to be producing more than that ...(wont happen, they will never produce full capacity, except under laboratory conditions)

I'll give it a year or two then place another one up there to "fill the gap"

[EgoFG]

Just figured the deal if you wisjh to "Add" to a NSW Net FIT System - the ones without the 60-66c FIT.

The deal is that currently a first install gets REC + 100% of RECs as a bonus
The +%100 is the solar rebate scheme
On a 1.5 KW system the "REC + Solar rebate" is about $1900.
So in theory, those of us in NSW, on NET FIT, that wish to upgrade will still be eligible for the REC, at about $950 for a 1.5kw system.
So, in the paper there was an ad for a 1.5 for $499. As an additional install (assuming that the current inverter is at full capacity) that should work out to 499 + 950 = $ 1499

Interestingly, my magic number for an additional system is about $1000 per KW.

[Noddy]

PS do you know the in's and out's of panel array tilt? Is there an optimum angle of degree for solar panels?

I had my instal go in on Tuesday and it all went very well. I fired it up today after lunch just to see what power it was producing.

My system is a 3.75kw and It was making 3070watts. I'm not sure how that stacks up but I noticed on the paperwork today that the panels are installed at 16degrees. I therefore guess that's the roof angle. I couldn't find any information in the REC panel manual as to orientation, it just says its up to system designers.

When I was on the PV OUT website today most of the system configs i looked at had tilt angle of 20+ deg.

[prydey]

optimum tilt is 30 deg i believe. mine is at 22.

[poppa smurf]

32 is the most desirable tilt angle......however I cannot agree with this

I've measured my angle compared to the sun many times and it varies enormously

in winter the sun is lower .....summer the sun is higher.......variable stands would be the way to go to achieve the optimal angle which changes month to month

a bit of light reading for you

http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical...l#installation

[Noddy]

I've dug out my house plans and the roof is 20 deg. The array is facing due north so is it possible that the tilt angle is 16deg on top of the 20 deg roof?
Making it 36deg?? Had a quick look at the link you supplied and the graph shows the sweet spot for direct north 34 degrees. I think I'll give them a call tomorrow and clear it with them.

[poppa smurf]

if you have a 20 degree slope on your roof that is what your array will end up as

the array sits on a flat support system and i don't reckon they will rearrange the angle

it really doesn't matter all that much about the angle.....as i stated above the time of year will determine output

the only way to guarantee close as possible to perfect alignment is an adjustable system

that "sweet spot" of 34 degs will vary from your position relative to the equator

[homegrown]

Most common we do is around 25. would most probably have to get council approval if you wanted a frame or something to raise the angle.
Lot of work for little or no gain IMO.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by homegrown

Most common we do is around 25. would most probably have to get council approval if you wanted a frame or something to raise the angle.
Lot of work for little or no gain IMO.

just one other thing to remember if anyone is considering placing the panels on a frame on the roof other than standard

the council will require you to lodge building forms first with the appropriate fees and charges and all drawings submitted

council wanted $60 per square meter here if I placed the array on a frame

[homegrown]

Got one of these from trade school thought its pretty interesting showing how the angle of the sun changes through the year.