XR8 vs SSV including dyno test - Page 4

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 01:07 PM

Depends on the dyno, I'd say the ss result seems low too so maybe a low reading dyno. There is another xr8 dyno that read 305kW I think. The important thing is same dyno same day.

290GTP · 10-01-2015, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP534

I think you should have those beers with Potts, maybe he'll take you for a spin in his GT. (I reckon you've got the better of the deal!!)

Be like going to the Summernats I reckon.

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 01:09 PM

So when you guys do catch up for those beers we want pics of the gt burnouts!

LoudPipes · 10-01-2015, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

The answer to "why not talk about boring stuff" pipes is that it's boring. The reason people talk about the performance even if it can't be used is because it's exciting. Although if you read there are quite a few comments on road manners in this thread, it seems xr8 was given those honours in this review.

So let's take performance out of it now then.

The xr8 sounds better when cruising or applying small bits of acceleration. That alone is worth the win, holden really don't do a good stock exhaust.

Mate of mine has a nice walky exhaust on his ve and that sounds fantastic but it also adds $.

PS the only people talking in circles are the ones talking about members rather than the topic at hand, why do you feel you need to silence the discussion with the same "circle" comment all the time?

(ironic hey, you keep posting the same thing)

At Christmas my Daughter-In-Law’s brother was proudly showing off his new Skoda and like any new car buyer he was more than happy to have a chin wag.

He said to myself and about a dozen or so other males aged between 30 and 70 that he’d done a lot of research before making a choice and though he saw some cars he really liked, in the end the Skoda gave him a good compromise for the price range and type of vehicle he was after.

We all have an opinion and I thought it was a very nice looking car both inside and out, I’ve never driven one so I can’t judge him on his decision.

I did though asked if he’d checked out the new Falcon or what he thought of it and he replied, “I thought they’d gone broke and were out of business.”

When I told him no and that Ford have just released a new model and also added the XR8 model was possibly the best bang for buck performance car ever built in Australia he simply said, “I wouldn’t want a car like that and in any case I was looking for something that was a bit more modern, not the things Ford make.”

No one there disagreed with him and admittedly most of them don’t care about cars as performance machines but they do care about what they are buying and if they are representative of the buying public then cars like the XR8 and its performance is almost irrelevant in today’s Aussie market.

Now if I could have talked about its points outside of 0-100km, exhaust noise, G-Force handling characteristics or Brembos then the fellows may have taken an interest.

So my point being that outside of the small number of owners of these cars very few people have an interest in them, when they drive along the street regardless of what their owners like to think, very few people recognise them and the truth is the majority of people are not staring at them, those that do are few and far between.

So if Falcon enthusiasts can’t talk up the car itself from the base model to the luxury versions and all in-between then who can?

I don’t feel the need to silence the discussion, the performance side has been discussed to the point of ad nauseum in thread after thread, I was interested in hearing for a change about all the other things that make up this particular car.

Therefore I’ll ask, is the Falcon a one trick pony and is that why it’s dead in the eyes of most of the buying public.

To be fair I’ll throw the Commodore in as well though to a lesser degree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tezza

Seriously mate, perhaps you would be better off discussing that over on the Toyota Camry thread....? If I am going to buy a "performance car" then the most important thing is its performance (drivetrain) by at least 51%. That means while all the other stuff is nice to have and adds points to the overall driving experience, it will collectively never be more important than the drivetrain. If the other stuff is so important to you, then go review a Calais, G6E, C or 3 series which will have a lot better features than the cars being discussed here is this thread.

So says you, I thought the article was about the cars as a whole and not just their performance.

Any way fair enough if I'm mistaken, I’ll pull my head in as I didn’t realise the Australian Ford Forum is only about the performance of Ford’s performance cars and not their other non existing features.

2242100 · 10-01-2015, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Depends on the dyno, I'd say the ss result seems low too so maybe a low reading dyno. There is another xr8 dyno that read 305kW I think. The important thing is same dyno same day.

Same dyno same day is good, but how much slip did the XR8 have and how much slip did the Holden have? Keep in mind that if say, 10% of speed is lost on the rollers, then the power reading will be that much lower. I've had Dyno operators say that they don't get slip on their rollers, but when you get them to take the car to the cutout it turns out that there is slip.

The next argument is that the discrepancy must actually be because of tyre distortion. However to me that doesn't add up, because:-

1) Tyres have a steel belt that has to cover a certain distance every time a tyre rotates and,
2) I've measured the distance around the circumference of a tyre when it's on a bump similar to a roller and found that the cicumference actually increased fractionally, so that would work in the other direction.

I'd like to see Dyno operators run the cars up to peak revs without much engine load (if the electronic nannies will allow it), note the speed that the engine cuts out at, and then run the engines to the cutout when checking the power.
That way the percentage of speed loss can be measured, and you've got some idea of the power loss.
Some Dyno operators have the facility to compare roller speed with tailshaft speed, but I don't know of anyone that routinely does that and tells the customer an estimate of how much power was lost because of slip.

No such problems with a Hub Dyno.

Tezza · 10-01-2015, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

It might be your priority, but you are wrong to assume its everyones. I look at the total package and I can't believe that others who buy V8's or Turbo's for that matter only consider straightline speed.

Maybe its an age thing. At nearly fifty I really don't care if you beat me at the lights, but I do love the sound and effortless power of my V8 car.

I've owned three V8's new and one AWD Turbo new since my thirties and none of them were the fastest at the time I purchased them, but I considered them the best all round packages for me and my circumstances at the time.

If you wasn't impressed by them at the lights, I don't care then or now. I don't buy my cars because I want to impress you or anyone else. I buy them because I want to enjoy them for me. if someone else likes them that's nice, but I loose no sleep if they don't.
Please don't assume everyone is looking at top speed as the one and only factor in a performance car and why they would enjoy owning one.

Mate, these cars are not marketed for you.... They have other badges to suit your needs. If you wanna look "cool" in your slow car, then buy an xr6 or sv6. If you wanna have your creature comforts, buy a Calais or G6E, and if you like your v8 sound, then buy a v8 calais....

The xr8 and ss are the most performance oriented version of the 4 door family car they make. Very few would be interested in their track performance as they will never take them there, however "Everyone" accelerates from lights every single time they drive the car. Whether they choose to give it 10%, 50% or 100% throttle, an extra 100kw and 100nm+ torque is going to feel noticeable and much nicer to drive. Not sure why you attribute "performance" to top speed, when that is probably the least things these cars would ever do (hit their top speed).

Next you will be telling us that the XYGTHO arguably the greatest muscle car ever produced in this country, only has that title as it is well renouned for its superior brakes, track handling ability and its 21st century build quality. Imagine if they were retrofitted with heads up display and blind spot warning jeez, their value would probably double overnight.

Your entitled to your opinion (as am I) and I dont assume that this is everyone's priority, however if kw and nm were irrelevant, then car markers right across the world have got it wrong, as they only seem to be increasing. Perhaps AMG Merceedes needs to give you a call for their next 10 year business plan.....?

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 02:17 PM

This is an XR8 versus ss thread the points you want to talk about seem to relate to all the other models. Why not start your own thread about that very topic rather than point out people are talking performance in a v8 based thread. I'm sure we'll all be keen to get in there and discuss those glorious things with you in a dedicated thread about the "one trick pony"...

While your circle of friends might be satisfied with a skoda plenty of my mates drive v8's. While I agree with you the v8 brigade is not as large as the functional feature brigade we are just as entitled to look at things from the performance perspective that satisfies us.

mtbkym01 · 10-01-2015, 02:21 PM

So what are these non existing features that the car doesn't have that I keep reading about?

Electronic handbrake? - It has a handbrake doesn't it?
Blind Spot warning? - It has mirrors doesn't it? Don't know about anyone else, but I've never side swiped any other vehicle
Head up display? 3 inches lower there is a speedo isn't there?
Automatic parallel parking? I like having the skill to be able to do that myself, even in the LC200!

Or like I said earlier, with the interior being so dated, yet it doesn't have anywhere for the "8 track cassettes"

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 02:25 PM

All I know is while I drive I look out the front windows, the bulge on the bonnet is more visually appealing than the SS and always makes me smile. While I accelerate I listen to the car, the Miami is more aurally appealing than the ls1 and always makes me smile.

Aside from that both cars have comfy seats, the SS has a better feeling steering wheel (the actual wheel not the handling). I don't think I'd trade the other things for the steering wheel.

Edit: the only car I ever bought for the "value for money package" I immediately regretted and it lasted 16 months in my possession.

Blue Roo · 10-01-2015, 02:40 PM

2242100 is correct. The only way to get an accurate dyno reading on both XR8 and SSV is to use a Hub Dyno. That way all errors are eliminated and we all find out who's got the most power.

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 02:44 PM

Lol I don't think who has the most power is in doubt... 83kw is a lot of "error" that the SS would have to make up.

Perhaps to simply get accurate results you'd need a hub dyno.

mtbkym01 · 10-01-2015, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

2242100 is correct. The only way to get an accurate dyno reading on both XR8 and SSV is to use a Hub Dyno. That way all errors are eliminated and we all find out who's got the most power.

I don't think anyone is questioning who has the most power, just what the actual rwkw's are. But yes a Hub dyno will tell us how much more power the XR8 actually does have

Edit - SensationFG8 beat me too it

skoobysGT · 10-01-2015, 02:45 PM

A lot of you guys on here think that the SS is a slow car. . Yes it may be slower than the XR8 but by no means is it slow compared to 90% of the cars you'll end up next to at the lights. Are you all forgetting that it's still a 6.0L V8? ?? Most cars on the road will be 4 cylinders without any forced induction. So I totally understand why someone would prefer a car which has enough performance to beat most cars on the road and not feel like they're sitting in a car which looks and feels a decade old. SS owners would rather feel comfortable 99% of the time than sacrifice it all for the 1% chance that they may meet an XR8 at the lights.

I am yet to see a single XR8 on the road yet let alone line up with one at the lights.

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 02:49 PM

We never said the SS was a "slow car" but it's a whole second slower than the xr8. We acknowledge the SS has a big v8, it's just the xr8 has a better one for the same cash. Each to their own, I understand the SS owners like their cars, but bear in mind this is a ford forum, we aren't over on ls1 trying to ram the xr8 down their throats because we think it's better. If we were I think you'd be justified to tear shreds off us (not that you are, but it seems many don't like anyone praising the falcon).

devoGT · 10-01-2015, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Depends on the dyno, I'd say the ss result seems low too so maybe a low reading dyno. There is another xr8 dyno that read 305kW I think. The important thing is same dyno same day.

It's not a low reading dyno, the SS is consistent with what SSs have pulled on other dynos. On the other hand, 286rwkw for the XR8 is extremely low, I thought they pulled 335rwkw .

Funny how so one eyed everyone is and hardly no mention has been made of the XR8s abysmal dyno result, when the GT-F was dyno'd there was a 40 page thread on it

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 02:54 PM

I thought the SS was normally around a 210kw car. The xr8 dyno is not too far off the mark from what you would expect out of the 335 (a bit over 300 at the treads), combine it with the 305 result and a picture starts to form.

As for the gtf dyno, the reaction from ford tells that story, there was something very wrong with that result and it was proven.

devoGT · 10-01-2015, 03:02 PM

I would say the SS is not too far off the mark being a 7 kw down, but the XR8 has 50kw deficit from what we have seen from other GTs.

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 03:06 PM

I think the GT has dyno'd between 300 to 330 depending on the dyno, you'd need comparison figures for the SS on the same dyno on the same days. I don't think anyone here would claim the 335 is definitely 335 at the wheels. There's too much documented variation.

I think maybe there is a 15kw discrepancy, given we agree the SS also has a discrepancy I'm not sure there is a problem here.

More dyno results will tell more of a story.

Pretty sure one of the retests of the gtf had it at 325 or there abouts (herrod dyno) so this result is in tolerable variance Imo.

Edit: i found a gt dyno as low as 283.

devoGT · 10-01-2015, 03:15 PM

I'm guessing we should also gloss over the fact that no XR8 auto or manual has had a sub 13s pass yet. Oh I forgot, magazine testers can't drive properly

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 03:18 PM

I think most of us are waiting for Jesse to test the xr8 to see what it can do. What is the point you think it is we are glossing over? Are you implying the xr8 is not a 335?

skoobysGT · 10-01-2015, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

We never said the SS was a "slow car" but it's a whole second slower than the xr8. We acknowledge the SS has a big v8, it's just the xr8 has a better one for the same cash. Each to their own, I understand the SS owners like their cars, but bear in mind this is a ford forum, we aren't over on ls1 trying to ram the xr8 down their throats because we think it's better. If we were I think you'd be justified to tear shreds off us (not that you are, but it seems many don't like anyone praising the falcon).

I honestly don't think SS owners are here ramming the SS down the throats of XR8 owners. I think they are just backing their brand in a Ford vs Holden thread. No SS owner has argued that the XR8 is the faster car.. They're simply saying there's more to a car then just performance and all I'm trying to get at is the XR8 may beat 91% of cars on the road but the SS isn't that far off being faster than 90% and in addition, is a much more modern and luxurious car than the Ford

also I know we are talking stock cars here but I can totally understand why someone would buy an SS over the XR8.. It's much easier to add a blower to a car then replace the entire interior/cabin of a very outdated model

rancidpunx · 10-01-2015, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

I thought the SS was normally around a 210kw car. The xr8 dyno is not too far off the mark from what you would expect out of the 335 (a bit over 300 at the treads), combine it with the 305 result and a picture starts to form.

As for the gtf dyno, the reaction from ford tells that story, there was something very wrong with that result and it was proven.

The SS is in the right ball park, maybe a touch under but the XR8 is quiet a way off what it should be if we are assuming that it is exactly the same as the GT. Anything under 310 is considered to be a lower figure and 330+ on the high side for a GT. Mine ran up 320rwkw and a GTF 330rwkw as a comparison. My XR6T ute made 252rwkw at the same shop when I had it. Could Ford have taken out some of the overboost for the XR8 compared to the GT? 335kw all the time as the GT but only 5% overboost extra in the right conditions rather than the 15% we know about. The fact the SS is about right shows the XR8 is either making less power than the FG GT's or something is not quiet right when it was strapped down. We need some time to see privately owned cars to start showing up on the rollers.

mtbkym01 · 10-01-2015, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoobysGT

I honestly don't think SS owners are here ramming the SS down the throats of XR8 owners. I think they are just backing their brand in a Ford vs Holden thread. No SS owner has argued that the XR8 is the faster car.. They're simply saying there's more to a car then just performance and all I'm trying to get at is the XR8 may beat 91% of cars on the road but the SS isn't that far off being faster than 90% and in addition, is a much more modern and luxurious car than the Ford

also I know we are talking stock cars here but I can totally understand why someone would buy an SS over the XR8.. It's much easier to add a blower to a car then replace the entire interior/cabin of a very outdated model

OMG, here we go again, let me tell you, the XR8 will be a massive updated new car for me, currently I drive a '96 turbo diesel 4x4 Rodeo dual cab. I'm not brand biased, but I felt the XR8 as a much more "Special" car over and above the SSV, when Holden release the final version SSV it may be a different story, but the current one has no soul!

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 03:32 PM

I hate the SS redline interior, white suede seriously a really bad idea.

Looking out the windows of the SS also boring.

Listening to the non existent note also boring.

The xr8 gives an overall experience the SS does not just from its exhaust note.

I wasn't implying you were ramming the SS down our throat. Sorry you read that into that remark.

Honestly in terms of interior, I just bought an 03 pajero, aside from the touch screen the interior isn't that different to a current car, does almost everything I need it to in a 13 yo car.

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancidpunx

The SS is in the right ball park, maybe a touch under but the XR8 is quiet a way off what it should be if we are assuming that it is exactly the same as the GT. Anything under 310 is considered to be a lower figure and 330+ on the high side for a GT. Mine ran up 320rwkw and a GTF 330rwkw as a comparison. My XR6T ute made 252rwkw at the same shop when I had it. Could Ford have taken out some of the overboost for the XR8 compared to the GT? 335kw all the time as the GT but only 5% overboost extra in the right conditions rather than the 15% we know about. The fact the SS is about right shows the XR8 is either making less power than the FG GT's or something is not quiet right when it was strapped down. We need some time to see privately owned cars to start showing up on the rollers.

To be honest I'd love to see some averages of the stock runs. I know I've seen a heap of variance from high 2's to low 3's so I'm not sure we could say under 310 is low. Maybe under 300? I definitely agree this is low, but another car has done 305 and then 363 with a tune. I think even that tune figure is "low" so that implies the dyno was low. More results will open our eyes more and paint the picture.

I wonder if any of the tuners have compared the tunes if they can to see if there are any minor differences.

graphicgoose · 10-01-2015, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

I hate the SS redline interior, white suede seriously a really bad idea.

Looking out the windows of the SS also boring.

Listening to the non existent note also boring.

The xr8 gives an overall experience the SS does not just from its exhaust note.

I wasn't implying you were ramming the SS down our throat. Sorry you read that into that remark.

Honestly in terms of interior, I just bought an 03 pajero, aside from the touch screen the interior isn't that different to a current car, does almost everything I need it to in a 13 yo car.

Not everyone drives around just listening to their exhaust though. Personally, I love music and most of the time I'd choose to listen to that over an exhaust. Sure, I appreciate a loud growling V8 as much as the next guy...but not when I'm sitting in traffic or just trying to get home late at night when I'm tired.

What white suede? MY15 model, which is the one that's been reviewed (and the model i own) has black suede. This is what mine looks like:

skoobysGT · 10-01-2015, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

I hate the SS redline interior, white suede seriously a really bad idea.

Looking out the windows of the SS also boring.

Listening to the non existent note also boring.

The xr8 gives an overall experience the SS does not just from its exhaust note.

I wasn't implying you were ramming the SS down our throat. Sorry you read that into that remark.

Honestly in terms of interior, I just bought an 03 pajero, aside from the touch screen the interior isn't that different to a current car, does almost everything I need it to in a 13 yo car.

Again. . Horses for courses. .I think the XR8 is fugly as hell inside and out.. The GT's/GTF's look tonnes better on the outside but the interior seriously is so outdated. . The SS interior is galaxies ahead of it

skoobysGT · 10-01-2015, 04:27 PM

Oh and I know you weren't directly having a go at me Sensation.

SensationFG8 · 10-01-2015, 04:27 PM

When I was shopping (April) the ssv had black suede, the ssv redline had white suede. Perhaps they have now fixed that ;)

I wasn't implying everyone listens to their exhaust merely that it is far far superior to what the SS offers in that department.

skoobysGT · 10-01-2015, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtbkym01

OMG, here we go again, let me tell you, the XR8 will be a massive updated new car for me, currently I drive a '96 turbo diesel 4x4 Rodeo dual cab. I'm not brand biased, but I felt the XR8 as a much more "Special" car over and above the SSV, when Holden release the final version SSV it may be a different story, but the current one has no soul!

and the SSV will be a massive step up in performance from your Rodeo too. . So what's your point exactly?