Oil change

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by Highway cruser

Nice to see everything is black and white then.

You get black and white answers by asking experts,
I like to ask myself and see what the experts say.

If you believe the Nulon blurb for C3 Long Life Diesel, you're
covered. I've asked myself and decided I'll go with what they say,
without actually believing it.

In my case this is probably the last car I'll own, given my age, so there's maybe a different perspective.

My first experience with Ford was a passenger in the Ford Prefect,

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Ford_Prefect

which did fantastic kangaroo hops, if you know what they are.

The term kangaroo hopping used to mean getting off to a bouncy start due to
some mechanical resonance. And I mean bouncy.

[NZ XR6]

Modern oil standards set limits on ZDDP because too much isn't good for cats. (Not the furry ones ) I wouldn't worry about it.

Penrite make decent oils but some of their marketing BS annoys me. The zinc level they give on the labels is total zinc equivalent and includes other anti-wear additives that don't contain zinc.

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[ivorya]

So with the SAPS etc etc,

we could also put this in as well https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...uro-engine-oil

It's rated as C3. Has low SAPS.
I guess it just comes down to price.

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by ivorya

So with the SAPS etc etc,

we could also put this in as well https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...uro-engine-oil

It's rated as C3. Has low SAPS.
I guess it just comes down to price.

Very difficult to find in NZ for some reason. PAO is what used to be in Mobil 1, so that's a definite plus.

C3 oils are mid-SAPS, so more mareting BS.

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[rondeo]

Originally Posted by ivorya

So with the SAPS etc etc,

we could also put this in as well https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...uro-engine-oil

It's rated as C3. Has low SAPS.
I guess it just comes down to price.

"Full synthetic" is a marketing term and is not a measurable quality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthe...#Group_IV:_PAO

This one is cheap:

https://redpoint.com.au/titan-gt1-pr...ngine-oil.html


Nulon say group iii oils are 'widely considered to be synthetic':

https://www.nulon.com.au/support/test

Google says group iii are....

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

C3 oils are mid-SAPS, so more mareting BS.

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In case anyone missed the detail, it's worth repeating:
Nulon C3 Long Life diesel is also marketed as 'low saps technology', as appears on the container.
just ignore the fact ACEA C3 is mid saps specification,
and the up to 5% ZDDP suggested by the MSDS:

http://jr.chemwatch.net/CWWS/Materia...wn&onlyfirst=1

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by rondeo

In case anyone missed the detail, it's worth repeating:
Nulon C3 Long Life diesel is also marketed as 'low saps technology', as appears on the container.
just ignore the fact ACEA C3 is mid saps specification,
and the up to 5% ZDDP suggested by the MSDS:

http://jr.chemwatch.net/CWWS/Materia...wn&onlyfirst=1

What it does tell us is it's mostly Group 3 base oil. PAO is not deemed hazardous, so it's not on the MSDS.

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[rondeo]

Titan GT! pro flex MSDS:

https://www.lupinsys.com/search/fuch/

[rondeo]

Long standing mysteries:

https://phys.org/news/2015-03-long-s...motor-oil.html

We know ZDDP is used in Nulon and Penrite products, but FUCHS isn't telling about anti wear additives.
I like to know what's in my vegemite, even though I don't know what it means.
I'm guessing compounds containing Titanium, hence TITAN, though I prefer not to guess.

[NZ XR6]

Back on the original topic and some further feedback on the Penrite C3 oil.

The fuel consumption seems unaffected by the change from Fuchs Titan Pro Flex, but there was another regen at the weekend. Of course, it started just as I drove into a car park, so I went back on the road and it finished in a few minutes.



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[stefcio007]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

Of course, it started just as I drove into a car park, so I went back on the road and it finished in a few minutes.

The regen will continue even if the car isn't going anywhere and still running. I was in the exact same situation as you, regen still continued until it finished. The car still kept temps above 600*C in the DPF so you can comfortably sit there just keep the engine running.

[bundybear75]

Originally Posted by stefcio007

The regen will continue even if the car isn't going anywhere and still running. I was in the exact same situation as you, regen still continued until it finished. The car still kept temps above 600*C in the DPF so you can comfortably sit there just keep the engine running.

Just be aware where you are parked - this could start a fire if there is anything combustable near the DPF

[stefcio007]

Originally Posted by bundybear75

Just be aware where you are parked - this could start a fire if there is anything combustable near the DPF

Parked over gravel, no worries.

[bundybear75]

Anyone tried Gulf Western?

http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/product/syn-x-7000/

This is their recommended oil for the TDCi and can be had this weekend (ordered online) from Supercheap for $82.50 for 20L !!!

It says it is Ford WSS-M2C-913D spec

My last service I used the last of my Nulon stash so I'm up for oil and this could be a very economical way of getting some.....

I'm thinking of trying it for the next few services to see

They also have a DCT fluid but its not on the recommended list (list out of date maybe?) at $225 for 20L

http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/product/syn-ts-dct/

Its Ford/Nissan M2C936A rated

[cobrin]

Your timing is impecable Bundy, last week I had investigated that oil too, unfortunately it's ACEA A5/B5 and not C1/2/3/4 (Catalyst) and thus isn't an option in my books.

[bundybear75]

Originally Posted by cobrin

Your timing is impecable Bundy, last week I had investigated that oil too, unfortunately it's ACEA A5/B5 and not C1/2/3/4 (Catalyst) and thus isn't an option in my books.

I went with the Nulon again, taking advantage of the 30% off sale.

I don't understand the impact of the ACEA ratings on the oil I use, I'm just deferring to the forum experts here. I change the oil every 7500 km or every 6 weeks or so, so ageing isn't really a problem lol.... My biggest concern is that it is OK for the DPF to avoid problems in the future.

On another note, I have now done 100,000 km in just over 2 1/2 years. Still happy even with the few issues I have had

[rondeo]

http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/NulonAus/


Enter Citroen C5 2.0l HDi, Same engine as Duratorq TDCi.
I'm definitely not an expert so I'm wondering now who is.


I would always suggest using the manufacturers recommended oil.


Mine seems to be thriving on the Nulon for now, 200000km +, but time will tell.


DPF closed loop goes down to 17% after regen.

[cobrin]

I don't understand the impact of the ACEA ratings on the oil I use

If you don't use ACEA C1/2/3/4 you'll eventually collect all the combustion byproducts in the dpf and block it. C spec oils are designed to be burned off so you can regenerate and remove the soot in the dpf all that's left is ash which will eventually become the problem and the dpf need replacing.

Nulon and Penrite change labels all the time, I've kept an eye on it over the last 4yrs so it's disappointing to see. In any case stick to Fords Specifications and that is ACEA C grade.

[rondeo]

Nulon's lube guide specifies this for the 2010 - 2012 diesel:

https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...engine-oil.pdf

The CAUTION in that pdf is 'not suitable for dpfs'.

Given the MC diesels have dpfs, what is one to think?


One theory is Ford traded DPF life for fuel efficiency, there could be better reasons, who knows?



The spec is given as ACEA A5/B5-10.

[bundybear75]

I've been using this for the last 100K km and haven't had any issues yet bar a blocked vaporiser that I dont think was oil related

https://www.nulon.com.au/products/di...sel-engine-oil

I was hoping to save a few dollars using the Gulf Western oil but I will stick with a known oil for now

It is showing as ACEA C3-12 rated... and suitable for DPF's

[cobrin]

You know what, the more I look the more I'm inclined to think that the oils suggested are suitable A5/B5 as they've changed to keep with the ever changing requirements and emissions. But that doesn't convince me to change from ACEA C specs.

Penrite/Valvoline/Nulon offer A5/B5 and they range from full SAPS (penrite with high zinc for christ sake) which were not suitable. Valvoline has 1.09% SAPS where Low SAPS ACEA C1/C4 has 0.05%.

I've just chosen 07-09 Mondeo tdci on Nulons site (rather than '09-10) and it suggests Nulon C2-Mid SAPS LoL. '09-10 suggestion is A5/B5 go figure...

Penrite for an '07-09 suggests Enviro+ C3 also Mid SAPS @ 0.5%.

Perhaps you can and I can't use A5/B5. I've used Nulon for the last 100K kms so may as well keep using it, it is correct for me.

I accept oil requirements change, updated and so on, keeping on top of it is another story. I'm leaning towards ACEA C grades for DPF's and can't see myself changing tbh.

[NZ XR6]

The car hardly ever does a DPF Regen these days with C3 oils. To be fair, I think using Ultimate diesel also helps.

The only negative really is price, but $20 extra for oil is nothing compared to what a DPF problem could cost!

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by cobrin

If you don't use ACEA C1/2/3/4 you'll eventually collect all the combustion byproducts in the dpf and block it. C spec oils are designed to be burned off so you can regenerate and remove the soot in the dpf all that's left is ash which will eventually become the problem and the dpf need replacing.

So I asked the question about this comment, this is the response;

Hi Aaron,
What you have quoted here is not incorrect but it does state the full story. It assumes that all DPF’s are the same, which is not always the case. As I understand it, there is a class of DPF called a high volume or high through put DPF for which an A5/B5 oil is suitable.

We have to rely on the vehicle manufacturers to determine what is appropriate for the vehicles they have built and follow the requirements that they have set. They are no doubt familiar with all the industry specifications and would have considered these when setting the oil requirements for their vehicles.

Ok, so does anyone have any information regarding which PDF's ford are using in their Diesel vehicles?

Also, the engine oil ? has me digging about. On this site https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html It shows the ford spec -913-D to have a Min T(Total Base Number) >10.
Now, Nulon site suggests using the FE formula https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...ion-engine-oil BUT it's Min T is 7.9.
Now, if i was using this oil, something went wrong with the engine, they tested the oil, i'm in the poop house.
Interestingly, Penrite suggests this https://www.penriteoil.com.au/applic...thetic-5w-30#/ which has a MIN T of 10.1.

So, how important is this value?

[cobrin]

I don't assume all DPF's are the same because I'm not talking about 'every' dpf only my own, which is why it's not totally incorrect. It's also not the full story because I'm not addressing points other than oil and dpf longevity, everything else is outside the scope of what I wanted to get into. Context is key.

I'd have thought my MB would have a high volume dpf over high throughput but I couldn't say with 100% certainty. The main reason why I'm thinking this is because the dpf is quite long and high throughput dpf's are often short stubby but that in itself isn't foolproof. If you've ever bought a a highflow cat you'll see it's often a short jobby. I know mine Pre'10 is made from Silicon Carbide but that's about it.

As for Min T I don't know why you're looking at that, that's linked to oil life/longevity under harsh operating conditions, higher the figure (diesel 10–15 mg KOH/g) the longer the service interval.

I'm keeping to low SAPS and aren't going to over think it.

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Also, the engine oil ? has me digging about. On this site https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html It shows the ford spec -913-D to have a Min T(Total Base Number) >10.
Now, Nulon site suggests using the FE formula https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...ion-engine-oil BUT it's Min T is 7.9.
Now, if i was using this oil, something went wrong with the engine, they tested the oil, i'm in the poop house.
Interestingly, Penrite suggests this https://www.penriteoil.com.au/applic...thetic-5w-30#/ which has a MIN T of 10.1.

So, how important is this value?

Maybe you should ask Nulon why the oil appears not to meet the Ford spec when it claims to do so on the label?

I doubt it matters though. The minimum for C3 is 6.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by cobrin

.

As for Min T I don't know why you're looking at that, that's linked to oil life/longevity under harsh operating conditions, higher the figure (diesel 10–15 mg KOH/g) the longer the service interval.

I'm keeping to low SAPS and aren't going to over think it.

Being a scientific person, I understand what specifications are and find in interesting that an oil company can state that it meets or exceeds the specs when it doesn't. It fails only one part but that potentially can cost you Ina fight against the car company.
I don't like complications, I just like all the information to make an educated decision. I've been using C3 in my diesel since reading this great thread.

[rondeo]

The Ford specified oil service interval is 15000km.


Maybe they reckon people will forget or delay to 20000km, which is when the service oil reminder pops up. So specifying TBN of 10 might cover that.

But if you change the oil at 10000km then maybe not so critical? Nulon C3 long life is 7.8.

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by rondeo

The Ford specified oil service interval is 15000km.


Maybe they reckon people will forget or delay to 20000km, which is when the service oil reminder pops up. So specifying TBN of 10 might cover that.

But if you change the oil at 10000km then maybe not so critical? Nulon C3 long life is 7.8.

Ford specify 15,000 km for the Mondeo in Australia only - it is 20,000 km in other countries. I've never seen an explanation for the difference.

So 7.5 should be OK for Oz conditions?

[cobrin]

I've never seen an explanation for the difference.

I hear ya, I always thought it's a regional thing, so climate makes a difference.

[stefcio007]

I've done about 5k km on the C4 spec oil and noticed that the DPF seems to get clogged quicker, still does a regen fine.

I haven't used BP for a long time now since I started filling up at Costco. Is the fuel there not as good? (fuel economy is the same).