new hsv for 2008

[bangm001]

If hsv has the 7L and all ford can do is bring out a S/C 5.4L GTHO, apart from the name that will sell the falcon, IF i had the money to spend id go the HSV.. The Corvettes are running some damn quick times in the states.. And i aint brand loyal..

[Citric GT]

I'd be happy with the 6.2 litre LS3 that they are bring out in a few months, let alone the 7 litre. Ford/FPV will have to offer something really good to keep me out of an LS3 I'm afraid.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by waggaclint

has anyone heard about thing....article from wheels mag web site...

HSV
Depending on how you look at it, HSV’s top-secret GTS-R 7.0-litre V8 stormer will either be a very expensive Commodore, or a brilliant cut-price alternative to an M5. We’re tipping plenty of Aussies will agree with the latter when the $125,000 (estimated) newcomer goes on sale in 2008. And, with its 385kW/640Nm 7.0-litre Chevrolet LS7 V8 good for performance in the order of high fours to 100km/h and mid-12s across the standing 400m, we can’t disagree.

looks like they might wreck FPV's party with there new car......

That would be next my car unless FPV do something exciting. An insider tells me the next F6 will be something very special though.... Just I guess we have to wait until we find out how special.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by kpcart

most retarded thing ive ever hear. if it was just aftermarket, youd be buying any car, regardless of how much power it has to start off with, perhaps just buying a empty shell and modifying it to your needs.
More people look at Standard cars then aftermarket tuning cars. a original hsv 385kw will always be more desirable and hold more value then a fpv modified to 400kw. the 7L holden sounds like a car to match european sports cars, not mid-class ford falcon gts. the 7L motor weighs 40kg less then the V10 in an M5, and makes heaps more torque and has a flatter power curve.

If you honestly think that any local product from HSV or FPV will sway the opinion of anyone looking to potentially buy an AMG , M seies or JAG XKR derivative............then the retardation of which you imply clearly lies within yourself..............

I can just see the suited up , cashed up YUPPIE with his clinically washed and tied back pony tail trying to make his mind up.........

"Mmmmmmmmmm............let me see, BMW M3......M5..........NO WAIT..............I'll take a Commodore CLUBSPORT"

Thanks for the laugh ...............best I've had in days.....................

[Fev]

remake the 427 Cammer!! drop them into GT-P's and that will be cool. very very cool...

[mcnews]

I have always lusted after an M3, but more recently the Cayman S (in black) has been calling me, and it is calling quite loud... But of course there are the scary servicing and things that go with these premium brands.... Thus if I could save 50k and get a 500 horsepower HSV that handles well it is something I would consider instead. Although of course very different cars, and a HSV or FPV could never be considered a sports car like the other two, but at the end of the day by main requirement is mucho power and rear wheel drive and that is something they all have in common.

I think you forget that with the economy the way it has been suburban FPV/HSV bogans like me can actually serously consider owning a new Porsche or BMW.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Brent

ESP, I appreciate where you are coming from, but I'd beg to differ. For me, if you're going to stump up the $$$ for a new car, then I like to have the go fast bits fitted as standard. The last thing I can afford is to spend $65k on a GT then have to take it to a tuner and spend another $10k........and then lose my warranty whilst I'm doing it.

Call me old fashioned, but there's something special about hopping into a brand new factory car and having it perform damned well, stock. Why should you have to buy a 2nd hand car & mod it just to get really good performance?

Also, modding a car is a black art in itself. You try bits, put em on, take 'em off, change tunes, change exhausts....the list goes on. This forum is full of threads regarding tuning issues & problems. Personally, I work longish hours. I don't get RDOs. My time to tinker is minimal. To be honest, spending every 2nd weekend at my favourite tuner working out why the engine warning light keeps coming on isn't my idea of automotive utopia. Our car makers MUST continue to strive for making the stock item as good as it can possibly be for the price.

Brent.

Brent,

I understand where you're coming from and agree with you.
Unlike others on here who resort to antagonistic and aloof style commentary, you make some very good points.

My post was more in reference to those who are constantly seeking that extra edge over the competition. Most brand loyal buyers will buy the marque of their preference despite the initial factory power disadvantage and will then mod the vehicle to compensate. Most owners of FPV vehicles that I personally know have modded their vehicles. CAI, exhaust, generic or custom tune, diff gears etc, etc.

It's all relative. If FPV bring out a 450Kw GT and HSV release a 480Kw Clubbie.........I'm sure you'll find the exact same thing. Most buyers will take their 450Kw GT to the tuners to get it modded with zorst, CAI , tune etc, to get more out of it.

Sure there are people out there who dont want to tinker, but what is great from the factory today, is 2nd fiddle tomorrow. Its natural which is why a lot of people will mod their car..............its cheaper than upgrading every 3 years with the latest and greatest standard factory offerings.

A supercharged FPV GTHO with 350+ Kw from factory may very well cost over 100K - 120K+...............

Not many of us can afford that kind of coin.....................

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ESP

If you honestly think that any local product from HSV or FPV will sway the opinion of anyone looking to potentially buy an AMG , M seies or JAG XKR derivative............then the retardation of which you imply clearly lies within yourself..............

I can just see the suited up , cashed up YUPPIE with his clinically washed and tied back pony tail trying to make his mind up.........

"Mmmmmmmmmm............let me see, BMW M3......M5..........NO WAIT..............I'll take a Commodore CLUBSPORT"

Thanks for the laugh ...............best I've had in days.....................

Yep spot on, and in a similar way anyone seriously looking to buy the hot 2 door ricer GTR was never really interested in a FPV/HSV anyway...

[vanman_75]

bugger i forgot how this one started ! yep cars are good i like the fast 1s . and i will quote the missus ( size doesn't matter its how you use it ) fellas if ford bring out a 600 horsepower 4litre v8 i dont think your gunna buy the big 7 litre or would you i know i wont !

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yep spot on, and in a similar way anyone seriously looking to buy the hot 2 door ricer GTR was never really interested in a FPV/HSV anyway...

That is a mighty big blanket. I am sure many of us weigh up the pros and cons of what is available in the marketplace for what coin compared to the funds we have available at the time.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by mcnews

That is a mighty big blanket. I am sure many of us weigh up the pros and cons of what is available in the marketplace for what coin compared to the funds we have available at the time.

Yes its a broad blanket... and there will always be exceptions and fringe examples, but by an large in Australia FPV and HSV have a mostly unique market all to themselves.
Large powerful Australian 4 door Performance vehicles: Ford V Holden, FPV V HSV, Blue v Red, Falcon V Commodore.. Aussie Icon or "Hero" cars.
It would be rare for an M series or AMG series or Porsche or whatever to feature into the equation of those who make up the majority of customers and potential customers in this uniquely Australian market segment, regardless of how good the offering is, or relative prices of each....
Also lets face it, bar from a couple of isolated examples who else really makes a Large powerful 4 door performance vehicle besides FPV or HSV? There's no point comparing them to the myriad of 2 door euro and Japanese small or mid size coupes, its not a fair comparrison, or for that matter even the US Ford/GM coupes, if for nothing more than the carrying capacity and sheer size and weight difference....

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ESP

Unlike others on here who resort to antagonistic and aloof style commentary, you make some very good points.

Originally Posted by ESP

If you honestly think that any local product from HSV or FPV will sway the opinion of anyone looking to potentially buy an AMG , M seies or JAG XKR derivative............then the retardation of which you imply clearly lies within yourself..............

You are a bit tough there aren't you?

While ever media outlets and car companies continue to promote the ideal, there has to be some sort of doubt one way or the other. The fact remains that despite these claims the locals still haven't come close enough to serious challenge this notion not by most rational anyway.

It’s very hard to imagine the HSV badge holding greater market cache in the segments mentioned BUT it’s not inconceivable that one day the comparison won’t get seriously close to challenging this conventional wisdom.

Cue the GTS-R.

That’s what these cars are all about and if done right they won’t be comparable with the locals that have come before it. They simply can’t be one dimensional as per HSV past. It simply just can’t be about the engine alone.

In this environment or a club environment the cars that carry modification is pretty high but overall FPV claim the number doesn't reach significant numbers until the owner decides to keep the car past the warranty period. HSV claims used to be lower again. HSV also has a higher repeat custom then FPV which might explain that.

Just like in the new car market the aftermarket is always revolving. Today’s enhancements are out of date tomorrow. New cars aren't purchased on one dimension alone.

If everyone modified their cars there would be no new car market at all. We are already seeing what reduced demand for the large car is doing. That flows on to the aftermarket. This is where products like this proposed HSV are valuable. Stimulate and excite the market with what is possible from a fully compliant ADR product.

Talking about it I guess won’t change the facts. Those lucky people that are fortunate enough to purchase this type of product will be congratulated by the majority and taunted by the minority. "My 3 year old SS with 5k worth of mods will blow the doors off your car" and it’s so not the point.

There is always a better mousetrap.

I would certainly consider one. The idea of hybrid proposition horrifies me more than brand loyalty.

I hope this product has the breadth of engineering that truely does create a watershed moment in Australian automotive history. It has the potential to be exactly that. If successful in that vein then all bets are off as to who and where buyers will come from. A motoring enthusiast in this country started somewhere and we are all Australian at heart.

[WASP]

How this thread has progressed! I’m not even exactly sure what part of the conversion to get involved into, but I'll take a punt and assume to topic has moved towards questioning if such a car as the GTS-R has a market or if the aftermarket industry would always appear the better option.

In my humble opinion one cannot co-exist without the other for either to be sustainable. Aftermarket specialists use the best that the factory can produce to bench mark themselves, learn from, build and exceed well past the base product offerings. The manufactures of performance models on the other hand seek to learn from the demand, exploration and innovation of the aftermarket industry free from the limitations they must injure.

There will always be buyers that would never consider modifying their cars for good reason. The aftermarket performance industry should be thankful for those consumers for without them the base products would never be realized and everyone would miss out.

Colville

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kpcart

heres food for thought, the new cadillac cts coming to australia this year has 227kw and 370nm torque, using the same 3.6litre engine as VE commodores but with Direct injection. this engine could see its way into standard commodores, and maybe holden can add turbocharging.. these numbers are better then the 3.7litre v6 ford is likely to get in the new falcon (launched in 09 lincoln first), the ford engine is rate as 201kw and 359nm. ford could end up losing across the range vs commodores in terms of factory spec performance.

The Ford V6 will have direct injection versions available in the future, the twinforce turbo version is direct injected for example, so that will be available to Ford Australia in NA and Turbo versions if they want it, and i'd assume since the standard 3.5 V6 already makes more power than the Commodore engine if it gets a 3.7 litre capacity and direct injection it should easily shade the direct injection 227 kw CTS engine.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Of course, thats why they went to Cosworth to get the engine tuned and Lotus to do the suspension, yep its an all Nissan effort. They aren't 50 years ahead in technology, at best they are 6 months.

FFS why is it there is always turkey's who have to babble on about the GTR like its exhaust don't stink.

As for HSV, you know they suffer from small man syndrome over there so I wouldn't be surprised if they try and one up the incoming FPV's

Im not brand loyal, and i didnt say anything about it being an 'all Nissan effort'.
I only used it as an example because people show ignorance to a car that is genuinly better then anything FPV can make.
HSV is a company, its not a small man syndrome, of course they will one up the incoming FPV's, they are making better cars now with better specs, so they have to 'one up' to keep the sales going.

PS. 50 years is an exagiration, but i bet you my house FPV wont built a car that is better (in performance terms) then the Nissan GTR in the next 10 years.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by ESP

If you honestly think that any local product from HSV or FPV will sway the opinion of anyone looking to potentially buy an AMG , M seies or JAG XKR derivative............then the retardation of which you imply clearly lies within yourself..............

I can just see the suited up , cashed up YUPPIE with his clinically washed and tied back pony tail trying to make his mind up.........

"Mmmmmmmmmm............let me see, BMW M3......M5..........NO WAIT..............I'll take a Commodore CLUBSPORT"

Thanks for the laugh ...............best I've had in days.....................

youd be suprised how many on these so called 'YUPPIE's already buy HSVs. with the newest VE hsvs, the value really is getting closer to top Euro cars, but you cant appreciate that i guess.

If its the best laugh youve had in days, then your probably sitting in a mental hospital watching Family Feud for the last week.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yep spot on, and in a similar way anyone seriously looking to buy the hot 2 door ricer GTR was never really interested in a FPV/HSV anyway...

thats very ignorant calling the GTR a ricer. this car has performance stock to match ferraris, its not some 2L 4cyl turbo civic with backyard job tuning with hks stickers on it (aka 'ricer') this new Nissan is designed as a real muscle car and a really fast car. the car has 353kw, and 580nm torque from a 3.6 V6, and is a match, if not better for a Porsche turbo. and its priced accordingly, like a great car, yet still half the price of the porsche.
An you cant generalise people, not all people are brand loyal, im not... i drive a ford, but am interesting in all good cars. i wouldnt buy a ford just because its a ford, if their is a car for the same price as a ford, but offers more, id go for the latter, and there are many other people who would too.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by kpcart

thats very ignorant calling the GTR a ricer. this car has performance stock to match ferraris, its not some 2L 4cyl turbo civic with backyard job tuning with hks stickers on it (aka 'ricer') this new Nissan is designed as a real muscle car and a really fast car. the car has 353kw, and 580nm torque from a 3.6 V6, and is a match, if not better for a Porsche turbo. and its priced accordingly, like a great car, yet still half the price of the porsche.
An you cant generalise people, not all people are brand loyal, im not... i drive a ford, but am interesting in all good cars. i wouldnt buy a ford just because its a ford, if their is a car for the same price as a ford, but offers more, id go for the latter, and there are many other people who would too.

Whoopdy do... im not awe-struck like some by the numbers, at the end of the day it doesnt fit the market segment were talking about and its not a large RWD 4 door performance sedan that can also take the family on a holiday, tow a trailer or blast around the track.., so really i can't see how its even relevant to the thread...

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Whoopdy do... im not awe-struck like some by the numbers, at the end of the day it doesnt fit the market segment were talking about and its not a large RWD 4 door performance sedan that can also take the family on a holiday, tow a trailer or blast around the track.., so really i can't see how its even relevant to the thread...

Exactly. I can't see a GTR towing a boat and piled up with the family.

FPV and HSV are in a kind of bang for your buck multi purpose performance segment which they are kings of but trade blows with cars like the WRX.

I guess it would be better for FPV and HSV to benchmark against cars like the BMW M5 for the GTHO and GTSR.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by kpcart

If its the best laugh youve had in days, then your probably sitting in a mental hospital watching Family Feud for the last week.

You aren't going to get far going that route. It’s not needed or required in discussions.

Bias, discrimination call it what you will, when it comes to traditional tribal products some stereotyping is probably a bit safe. However these products or the one at the heart of this topic are created for another reason entirely.
This product has nothing to do with the competition or the aftermarket. The best of these types of products never do and as such applying normal stereotypes is potentially flawed.
A leopard never changes his spots is a notion that these products are created to challenge. They exist because the companies behind them want to make statements that challenge this notion.
We can prejudge without knowing all the facts all we like but the bottom line should be to always judge the product on its worth with an open mind. Why can’t the humble Falcon or Commodore be built to inspire? What makes our industry less capable than any other if the constraints are lifted?
For me I am Australian above all else and I certainly want to see and encourage the bar to be lifted as high as possible. This isn’t the normal ****ing contest that exists in core products, as the same rules don’t always apply.
Personally it disappointing that the aftermarket gets raised every time a manufacturer tries to lift the bar. On our side the F6 was the last victim of a notion that has trouble drawing a line in the sand. Don’t need a FPV turbo six as the aftermarket has the XR6T fully covered. Good thing FPV never listened.
Who cares? Well me for one. I want to think and encourage my company to strive to be the best they can. To create a product that people will recognise as being outstanding. No car company can achieve that via the aftermarket because at day’s end it’s about recognition for a product, for a brand that is required to turn a profit.
HSV aren’t thinking about FPV when they roll out this new product. They aren’t thinking about anyone else other them themselves. The best products should be like this. They should be selfish, perhaps nearly irrelevant because it’s about the best that they can do.
“With everything we have to do, to overcome, this is the absolute best product we can produce”
No core product will achieve this.
What is wrong with allowing for the possibility that it could exceed everything that has come before it and in the process create a different standard of stereotyping? At the very least the effort deserves reservation.
FPV aren’t in a place where they can compete in this way just yet. HSV are trying very hard to recreate themselves and I think this point is being missed by some. How well they have done can only be judged once Orion FPV has been revealed.

Volume is in core products, profitability is in core product tribalism is in core products. FPVs are in a place where they have to redefine their focus on these areas and rightfully so. We should be looking forward to that with the expectation that HSV could potential be on a path that is more relevant to them but less so when it comes to the vast majority of consumers. Like it or not HSV can afford to push the boundaries while FPV have to go back to basics (again).
I know come March which route I will appreciate more, but reserve the opinion that a type of product of the HSV nature has a role that could be redefining in our market. God knows they have talked about it, had adopted half arsed attempts at it previously so we shall see if practice make perfect.
I do believe they deserve respect for trying. Absolution or condemnation will follow on its release.
The market it is aimed at will be at HSV direction and its failure or success purely it their determination thereof but a pre-emptive strike is a tad premature.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Exactly. I can't see a GTR towing a boat and piled up with the family.

FPV and HSV are in a kind of bang for your buck multi purpose performance segment which they are kings of but trade blows with cars like the WRX.

I guess it would be better for FPV and HSV to benchmark against cars like the BMW M5 for the GTHO and GTSR.

I am not exactly sure how a two door AWD coupe entered this discussion other then in Australia it has the potential to be priced in the region of the suggested HSV hero.

Is this true?

The Nissan GTR is a very very special car. A large rear wheel drive car isn't going to be much of match or at least it’s hard to image it being so.

But. It’s unlikely the HSV GTS-R potential owner will be a single car family. Or tow a boat with that car. They probably will go to the track, most likely won’t be on their first HSV owners experience but like the last election could potentially have voted a different way for the first time in their life.

Realistically they shouldn't be competitors but as you point out the core products by either HSV or FPV do get compared against Evos and STi’s. If a HSV GTS-R encroaches on RRP of say the Nissan GTR then it will rightfully fall in the same cross hairs as its lower siblings face with the smaller AWD competitors.

Perhaps the major difference is that with the core products they are more likely to be single car families that require compromise while at the upper end of the asking price, compromise when it comes to performance, is less of an issue.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by HSE2

It’s unlikely the HSV GTS-R potential owner will be a single car family. Or tow a boat with that car. They probably will go to the track, most likely won’t be on their first HSV owners experience but like the last election could potentially have voted a different way for the first time in their life.

Realistically they shouldn't be competitors but as you point out the core products by either HSV or FPV do get compared against Evos and STi’s. If a HSV GTS-R encroaches on RRP of say the Nissan GTR then it will rightfully fall in the same cross hairs as its lower siblings face with the smaller AWD competitors.

Perhaps the major difference is that with the core products they are more likely to be single car families that require compromise while at the upper end of the asking price, compromise when it comes to performance, is less of an issue.

Yes, and that's a good point of differentiation, traditionally FPV and HSV have catered for the family man or exec who can't afford 2 cars, its been their bread and butter for a long time, performance wise there are better cars around but they wont "carry the family or tow the boat", or at the very least as an exec vehicle carry a couple of customers out to lunch in comfort....
If Hsv do the GTS-R and FPV do a GTHO that's squarely aimed at track performance (as opposed to a hot streeter) then i think this car will create another sub market in Australia, i still believe there wont be the full on cross shopping that many believe will happen, sure there will be comparrisons, but i still think the aussie stereotype will prevail with these cars and in some ways i believe these cars will be incremental business to HSV/FPV, and i think these companies are hoping for that too.
Lets be honest, If all out track inspired performance was your only goal i think Porsche has the bases covered nicely with the GT2/3 range.
You might find a traditional HSV customer trading back to a SUV for the day to day duties and buying a "toy" for the weekends, where before the Clubsport or GT was a cross purpose vehicle.

[Whitey-AMG]

^^^^

All well and true........but.......

An FPV or HSV are aimed at a different market altogether.

Division M and AMG , Ferrari , Porshe etc are selfish and pretentious as you put it because they can be. THEY CAN AFFORD TO BE.

The base product in EUROPE and WORLDWIDE under the same platform sells millions. The tuning division probably sells more than the base FORD and GM product in Australia in total.

Their market segments are totally different. Their ability to soak up and amortise new technologies and platforms is infinitley more robust and flexible than our piddly FPV and HSV. The demand for their product and the number of people able to shell out the ridiculous price for them "worldwide" is infinitely greater than the FPV , HSV buying public..............

At 65K for a GT or Clubbie..........the factory value and performance is unbeatable.

Do the cars inspire............HELL YES.......This FORUM is proof of that.
Do the cars perform..........HELL YES
Are the cars affordable......HELL YES
Are the cars competitors....HELL YES
Do HSV care what FPV are doing and vice versa..............HELL YES

They are the same market segment, selling to the same demographic.

BIG LOCAL 4 DOOR RWD Performance sedans with a selling price within reach of most people that aspire to own them.

People also miss the fact that companies like FPV and HSV are also subject to global and local economic and political pressures. A small increase in raw material costs can send them off in a spin............there just isn't the critical mass to be able to resist or absorb like AMG , M spec, etc etc.

Someone already paying 250K for an AMG will more than likely NOT EVEN BLINK AN EYE if the price went to 270K because the new model came with ceramic discs and new engine metallurgical technology for extra lightness and stiffness.............blah blah blah.

I wonder how many here would scoff , and moan if the new GT , F6 was released with a RRP sticker of 90K because it came with new materials technology, bigger brakes and bigger engines with new induction technologies etc.................. Better still make it 150K for a GT which was comparable to an M5 in quality and dynamics. HOW MANY WOULD SELL ????????????????????????

Would it sway the potential M5 buyer................
Would FPV be able to turn a profit with the piddly numbers they would sell..?????

LIKE IT OR LUMP IT..............HSV and FPV are cut price, bang for your buck local performance sedans. They will never compete with the likes of M or AMG because THEY DON'T HAVE TO.

Their focus is local, their demographic is local, their cash buying customers are local. Their competition is each other. Their aspirations and benchmarking may be internationally based, but their focus is LOCAL.

At the end of the day when the beancounters and share holders look at the books, they want a balance. They don't care about the fact that the GT has more Kw than a AMG or that it is faster than a M5 around the NURBURGRING............they want to know if it SOLD WELL and was the product PROFITABLE.............THAT's LIFE.

So............is the product the best it can be for the moment..........for HSV..........YES. It's a great product selling in droves with a good reputation and a huge band of devoted cashed up buyers. The brand image is cemented from factory to aftermarket. Their is an aloofness amongst this buying demographic which is dangerous.........it is breeding the type of buyer that will subconsciously pay more for the HSV product regardless because of the perception ( true or otherwise ) that it is the better , premium product...............This is exactly the type of mentality that AMG and M spec have been culturing for decades...............AND IT WORKS.

For FPV..........MAYBE..........the product is still perceived to be behind in factory guise.....( TRUE OR OTHERWISE ) FPV are considered the underdog and always as playing "catch up". Their buyers are always "waiting for something better". These are the types that WILL NOT shell out additional coin for the product and will whinge and whine till the cows come home. If it isn't the new Clubbie that is better, it is the age old comparison with the GTHO and the early 70's GT's. FPV have a difficult task ahead with their marketing and product offering........IMHO, the FPV buyer is a bigger pain in the backside to sell to than the HSV buyer.

In fact..........I wouldn't be surprised if the FPV product is NEVER considered as "GOOD ENOUGH"

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ESP

^^^^

All well and true........but.......

An FPV or HSV are aimed at a different market altogether.

Division M and AMG , Ferrari , Porshe etc are selfish and pretentious as you put it because they can be. THEY CAN AFFORD TO BE.

I assume you are referring to me and if so I feel I need to add some clarification.

I am not saying those companies or the products they make are selfish as I am drawing a distinct line between their core models and the model which are a step up. Relatively speaking just because the cost increases doesn’t mean there aren’t core models inside a premium franchise.
An extreme case

The Veyron to Bugatti is what the GTS-R could be to HSV.

The Enzo is to the 430.

The Porsche GT is to the 911.
AMG and M division it gets a bit harder but there core product is based on cost as well.

That’s the sort of product HSV have been trying to get off the ground but based closer back to their core values and realities or relative to their selling exposure (cost base) Above are extreme examples. .

It comes down to how we chose to view these products.
HSV isn't saying they are abandoning their core product or their core customer, rather than from time to time they will roll out a product that showcases their abilities and charge accordingly. The success of the core products (R8 GTS) have allowed this to be possible.

It’s not a statement that says this is where the price or product of the performance segment should be, rather an addition to the existing range, a range that has already been rationalised. I think they know that to ask 125k for an Australian product it going to have to be pretty special. I am entrigued to learn of their understand or reading of the market, the content such a car should hold and how they go about breaking down some of these perceptions. It’s a massively challenging issue they face in many respects

As for the FPV side of what owners or fans think I can't comment. Interesting perspective that you think FPV consumers are more difficult as Australians in general don’t seem to have a good reputation in that department.

It’s not a replacement or redirection of their current crop of cars. The entry level will stay as it is now attracking the same sort of attention that it always has, because as you point out this is the only way car companies in this country will stay afloat. Most of what you have said won’t change or be affected and indeed these sorts of product will remain largely irrelevant to most. Companies justify the expense it terms of brand building which is often not immediately recognisable to the consumer.

Sink or swim will depend on how well the idea is executed.

I still say let them try and yes let them be first. This thread is just a small taste of the issues such a car has to overcome in this country by an Australian manufacturer.
There will still be mid 60k GTs and Clubbie R8s for sale that increase in price incrementally . Perhaps there will be a more aspiration model that is more upmarket, and in my book inspirational is good if it’s executed correctly.

It’s going to be good to watch what and how they go about it but for mine it’s not an attack on the FPV product that is as relevant as say the inclusion of the LS3 in the R8. This is on a different more challenging level one FPV don't currently compete in.