Wagons back from the dead: Sportwagon still outselling every SUV - Drive Comparo

[Struggo]

In the end guys, its the Lima Decralation that has and will continue to destory our local manufacturing.

Yet our fellow Aussies are asleep ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc5E6pvDv2Y

http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/lima/

What is the Lima Declaration
A call for change was made in March 1975 when the Second General Conference of the United Nations Industrial Development Organisation (UNIDO), meeting in Lima, issued a Declaration and World Plan of Action.

The Lima Declaration and Plan of Action calls for the redistribution of world industry so that developing countries would have 25% of it by the year 2000. To achieve this, radical changes in traditional concepts and practices are recommended. Economic growth in poorer countries could no longer be seen as the "trickle down" benefit of growth in rich countries. To close the gap between richa nd poor nations the developing countries would have to grow faster than the developed countries. With this end in mind, the Lima Declaration sets out the "main principles of industrialisation" and defines the "means by which the international community as a whole might take broad action to establish a New International Economic Order".

The Declaration envisages a process of "continuous consultations" in redeploying world industry and bringing about a new didvision of labour internationally. To facilitate this, it was recommended that UNIDO become a specialised agency of the United Nations, with a new Industrial Development Fund, and undertake the central co-ordinating role in changing the world industrial map.

The Lima Declaration calls upon the developed countries to eliminate barriers to trade with developing countries and encourage their manufactured exports. They are asked to "restructure" their industries in order to deploy production capacity to developing countries and to expand technical assistance programmes. They are also asked to co-operate in ensuring that the activities of transnational corporations conform to the economic and social aims of developing countries in which they operate. They are further asked to avoid discriminatory and aggressive acts against States which exercise sovereign rights over their own natural resources. All these recommendations are, in differing degrees, matters of controversy. But encouragingly, there is no question of the general direction of change recommended - that of industrialising the poorer countries.

Source: The Seventh Special Session of the General assembly 1st to 12th September 1975. Issues and background, New York, United Nations, 1975 pp 22-23.

A copy of the declaration was supplied from "A new international economic order"; selected documents 1945-1975 volume 2. N.Y., UNITAR, 1977 pp 631-650

[geckoGT]

Personally, I think all this talk of Ford have dropped the wagon, get over it and the market killed the wagon is a load of BS. The thing is sportwagons are selling and they are selling well. Yes they may take some sales from their sedan stablemates but at the same time they are taking sales from the SUV market as well. Not every buyer that wants some room wants to drive a truck.

Yes at one stage the market moved to the SUV's, soccer mums voted with their cheque books and suddenly more cars in the shopping centre had side steps than ever before. Ford jumped on this and they did well with the territory, the thing I ask is were they 5 years too late?

We have been through all this talk of sales figures and I think at the end of it there is no clear indication, it is all up to interpretation. Look around the streets though, every month there seems to be more and more sportswagons such as the commodore, VW, Mazda etc. Yes there are a lot of small to medium size SUV's as well but the balance in the load carriers is not like it was in the days of the VZ and BA wagons where you would rarely see one but you saw lots of SUV's. Now you look in the shopping centre carpark, sports grounds, parks and schools and the sportswagons have a pretty good representation and the balance is continuously shifting.

The big question is why the shift? I am sure there are people that have done all sorts of studies and have some idea but I am not one of them. All I can do is put it into perspective of other shifts in buyer desires and see what the sportwagons fulfill. Many of the car buying public do not care about cubic capacity of the cargo area or total mass that can be carrried, that is the realm of the rep mobiles. They care about creature comforts, storage nooks, decent handling, power to pass a truck, ease of entry/exit, fuel economy and image. Many of these areas are better covered by sport wagons not SUV's. On the subject of fuel economy, lets look at the territory, you can have that with a fuel economy of 12.5L/100 km in base spec 4L auto 2WD form or you can have a Commodore sportwagon SS with a V8 for the same fuel economy. To get a territory with the same level of power you have to get the turbo which is a bit on the thirsty side at 14.2L/100 km.

Now on the topic of wagons and the demise of the falcon wagon, lets be realistic. The market did not dictate that wagons should die (quite the opposite apparently), Ford killed the wagon through misreading the market/trends and with neglect. Look at the falcon wagon, stand behind a 1998 AU wagon and a BF wagon and you have to be a bit of a train spotter to tell the difference. Sure car enthusiasts like ourselves can tell the difference but the average buyer will look at it and think ""when are they going to change it?" There had not been any significant body changes to the back of it in a decade. Also the wagon retained the leaf spring rear end when every other manufacturer was advertising they had IRS. Yes the leaf spring carries loads better but the family buyer does not really care about that, the stroller and shopping bags are not that heavy.

Then at a time that people started wanting options on engines, trim and creature comforts, Ford thumbed their nose at them and dropped the V8, manuals, Fairmont (and Fairmont Ghia) and killed the XR. Instead they said "sure you can have a falcon in a wagon, would that be a pov pack 6 cyl auto or would you like it on gas?" If the owner asked if they could have dual zone climate, a manual, leather, a V8 or any other option the answer was no, the market don't want those things. Meanwhile that same person had the choice of many other sportwagons that offered everything they wanted and more but at least the falcon could carry more (not that the buyer cared as evidenced by the crap falcon wagon sales). Lets be realistic about this, the majority of wagon buyers just want to carry a stroller, some shopping, a baby capsule and a child booster seat in comfort with some style. A lot of the rest just want room for a bike or other leisure equipment without looking like a photocopier rep. Sure a XT wagon can do most of this but there is little comfort or style. Then when they go on a drive through the hills on the weekend with the whole family, the leaf spring, live axle rear end, flat seats and soft suspension really comes alive to give the dad some enjoyment, not! Compare this to wagons such as the Commodore SS or VW R36 and you will see what I mean.

I think it is time to stop defending Ford, they misread the market and killed their wagon through neglect. As much as I hate to say it, Holden read the market, found a way to make their wagon attractive without massive amounts of development from the sedan and now they are making the sales.

My bet for the future, Ford will bring back the Falcon wagon eventually, when they can finally swallow their pride and admit they got it wrong. This may take a while, it took them nearly a decade to admit defeat on their decision to drop the V8.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Struggo

In the end guys, its the Lima Decralation that has and will continue to destory our local manufacturing.

Yet our fellow Aussies are asleep ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc5E6pvDv2Y

http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/lima/

What is the Lima Declaration
A call for change was made in March 1975 when the Second General Conference of the United Nations Industrial Development Organisation (UNIDO), meeting in Lima, issued a Declaration and World Plan of Action.

The Lima Declaration and Plan of Action calls for the redistribution of world industry so that developing countries would have 25% of it by the year 2000. To achieve this, radical changes in traditional concepts and practices are recommended. Economic growth in poorer countries could no longer be seen as the "trickle down" benefit of growth in rich countries. To close the gap between richa nd poor nations the developing countries would have to grow faster than the developed countries. With this end in mind, the Lima Declaration sets out the "main principles of industrialisation" and defines the "means by which the international community as a whole might take broad action to establish a New International Economic Order".

The Declaration envisages a process of "continuous consultations" in redeploying world industry and bringing about a new didvision of labour internationally. To facilitate this, it was recommended that UNIDO become a specialised agency of the United Nations, with a new Industrial Development Fund, and undertake the central co-ordinating role in changing the world industrial map.

The Lima Declaration calls upon the developed countries to eliminate barriers to trade with developing countries and encourage their manufactured exports. They are asked to "restructure" their industries in order to deploy production capacity to developing countries and to expand technical assistance programmes. They are also asked to co-operate in ensuring that the activities of transnational corporations conform to the economic and social aims of developing countries in which they operate. They are further asked to avoid discriminatory and aggressive acts against States which exercise sovereign rights over their own natural resources. All these recommendations are, in differing degrees, matters of controversy. But encouragingly, there is no question of the general direction of change recommended - that of industrialising the poorer countries.

Source: The Seventh Special Session of the General assembly 1st to 12th September 1975. Issues and background, New York, United Nations, 1975 pp 22-23.

A copy of the declaration was supplied from "A new international economic order"; selected documents 1945-1975 volume 2. N.Y., UNITAR, 1977 pp 631-650

wat?

thats bordering on tl/dr

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I think it is time to stop defending Ford, they misread the market and killed their wagon through neglect. .

Spot on there

I would be in a Falcon wagon yesterday if they had XR6/6T/8 or G6ET versions with a good looking body shape (ie FG) and modern suspension (ie IRS).

Ford... Do it

[Joe5619]

How did this topic come back??

It is time to build a brigde (And some need to build a pretty big one) & get on with life!!

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

How did this topic come back??

It is time to build a brigde (And some need to build a pretty big one) & get on with life!!

I thought you were saying lets build a "brigade" to petition for an XR8 Wagon!!!

[burnz]

i think theirs a market for the old style panelvans (sandman)
tradies..
the beach...
the drive inns..

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by burnz

i think theirs a market for the old style panelvans (sandman)
tradies..
the beach...
the drive inns..

So did holden - and you don't see many around...
Remember the Retro-Sandmands??

[JG34JA]

drew'SEVNT5 said:

"wat?

thats bordering on tl/dr"

...and because it is bordering on Too Long and you Didn't Read, it validates Struggo's point perfectly. Indeed, if you work with your hands for a living in Australia the information is cause for concern. Also, if it's too hard to read, just click on the link. Sheesh!

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Spot on there

I would be in a Falcon wagon yesterday if they had XR6/6T/8 or G6ET versions with a good looking body shape (ie FG) and modern suspension (ie IRS).

Ford... Do it

I've bought several cars near new, but as of yet not new. A FG XR6T Sportwagon would have me at the dealership having a very serious look and breaking the tradition.

At present we are looking to buy a SY Territory, the BF3 wagon just doesn't cut it in handling, equipment or looks. An FG XR6 s/w would be a walk up start.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by burnz

i think theirs a market for the old style panelvans (sandman)
tradies..
the beach...
the drive inns..

they look good but i have a ute with a canopy and its a pain in the ***. i could only imagine how bad it would be to work out of a pano

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I think it is time to stop defending Ford, they misread the market and killed their wagon through neglect. As much as I hate to say it, Holden read the market, found a way to make their wagon attractive without massive amounts of development from the sedan and now they are making the sales.

My bet for the future, Ford will bring back the Falcon wagon eventually, when they can finally swallow their pride and admit they got it wrong. This may take a while, it took them nearly a decade to admit defeat on their decision to drop the V8.

It's not that simple, money is a luxury that Ford Australia doesn't have, it would have cost mega bucks to produce the wagon and Ford simply cannot afford it. Just look at the Territory - 7 years and it's still the same. How could Ford justify spending a bucket load on making an FG wagon when they are struggling to update their second highest volume product?

I think if Ford wasn't so strapped for cash down under, we would have seen an FG wagon, although I suspect it still would have been based on the ute's leaf setup, which begs the question- who would buy a "Sport Wagon" with say 270kw, leaf springs and odd exterior proportions? To make a truely competitive wagon it would have taken alot of money which Ford doesn't have. We are still waiting for the Territory update in the meantime. It's easy to say that Ford's neglect and bad market judgement are to blame, but it's alot more complicated than that and I'm glad they didn't mould a wagon around the ute- it would have been a second rate product.

[FPV8U]

By the time Ford do a sportswagon.. everyone will be back buying SUV's..

Holden did a great job on the Sportswagon and people have been buying them up, not just base models either but SS & SSV sales have gone through the roof in my local area.

If it wasn't for the Holden Badge i'd be very tempted with the Sportswagon concept.. maybe thats why im trying to talk her into a VW Passat

[Crazy Dazz]

Seems to me that Ford has been killing the wagon softly for more than a decade, to the point where it became a self-fulfilling prophesy.
They never offered an XR8. Killed of the Ghia, then the XR6, then the V8, then Fairmont. For the B series all you get was the Futura or the poverty pack. Antiquated oxcart suspension didn’t help. No wonder sales died in the ****.
Then with the GF, they just keep trying to flog old BFs? Of course they have conveniently killed off the LWB models, so that left them without the existing platform.

Supposedly the gradual dismantling of the Falcon range was to avoid competition with the Territory, whereas I think they would have continued to complement each other.
Sure, upto a point Ford buyers just move to the next trim level, but eventually they get ****ed off and go and buy something else.
IMHO Ford has been steadily alienating loyal customers without attracting sufficient new ones.
An FG wagon, with IRS, and optional G6 and turbo versions…

[Dr Smith]

The chicken or egg theory, would a great wagon have kept sales or made no difference, did the bad management decisions and dumbing down of the wagon for whatever reason cause the sales drop, would the Terry have killed it off if it was upgraded as planned with a diesel back in 2006, I guess we will never know. Sadly I now really believe as long as Holden is seen as more Australian, Falcon will never outsell the Commodore unless we have a situation where the two were considered different enough as occurred historically when the Falcon was bigger and more fuel efficient leading eventually to a sales leardership during that period.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Seems to me that Ford has been killing the wagon softly for more than a decade, to the point where it became a self-fulfilling prophesy.

You're absolutely right, Geoff Polites made the decision to put funding into the Territory and
take it away from LWB Luxury and the Station wagon. Ford reasoned that the majority of
private station wagon buyers would migrate to the similar priced RWD Territory... and they did.
It was only cost cutting and neglect in the Gorman years that spoiled the dream run
of the Territory, and the fact that Ford didn't axe the Station wagon five years ago.

Had the Territory acquired a V6 diesel several years ago as originally planned,
it would be selling its head off instead of slow sales until the new model arrives.

[Resurrection]

Tne Gorman years messed up a lot
- the V8 supercar funding
- the stupid FG names (WTF is a G6 and why kill the Typhoon name which had so much street cred?)
- killing the I6 (which was reversed by Burela)
- pushing the Mondeo wagon as an alternative to the Falcon wagon

What with the new yank #$%@ up?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You're absolutely right, Geoff Polites made the decision to put funding into the Territory and
take it away from LWB Luxury and the Station wagon. Ford reasoned that the majority of
private station wagon buyers would migrate to the similar priced RWD Territory... and they did.
It was only cost cutting and neglect in the Gorman years that spoiled the dream run
of the Territory, and the fact that Ford didn't axe the Station wagon five years ago.

Had the Territory acquired a V6 diesel several years ago as originally planned,
it would be selling its head off instead of slow sales until the new model arrives.

Being a Yank, he really didn't have any appreciation for diesel in passenger vehicles. Had diesel been offered then 2,000 sales a month would've continued.

Still reckon a diesel Ute makes total sense too... Shove one into the sedan whilst they are at it. But that is another story.

[jpd80]

Perhaps looking to RHD markets to Australia's North may offer some interesting versions
of our existing vehicles, we would never normally consider Ecoboost I-4 and I-4 diesels
in our Territory, Falcon or Ute but if they were made available for say, India perhaps
those vehicles may also find interested buyer groups here in Australia too...

Maybe it's the perceived economy of those vehicles that needs to change, not the vehicles themselves...

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Perhaps looking to RHD markets to Australia's North may offer some interesting versions
of our existing vehicles, we would never normally consider Ecoboost I-4 and I-4 diesels
in our Territory, Falcon or Ute but if they were made available for say, India perhaps
those vehicles may also find interested buyer groups here in Australia too...

It would be very difficult to be price competitive in India.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

It would be very difficult to be price competitive in India.

I'm thinking affordable luxury, not bargain basement sales.
It's worth exploring anyway as they are RHD and would cost pennys to examine...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm thinking affordable luxury, not bargain basement sales.
It's worth exploring anyway as they are RHD and would cost pennys to examine...

Very luxury as its 300% tariffs on imports.

[NC_Lane]

Tax on imported cars will be the killer...
Anyone there who is going to pay the premium and pay for an import is not going to be concerned about price/fuel economy etc...

Unfortunately there are brand image issues as well, and anything americal/australian and some european cars are considered at a lower level. Most rankings go with Merc/BMW on the top and Japanese next with things like Landcruisers/Parols.

So you end up with in markets like India, people who can afford them will not buy them.
Your normal everyday punter will purchase something built there... There is very little demand for the mid segment.

[JG34JA]

I keep coming back to the wagon thread.

Does anyone on the forums know of an attempt to take an FG XR6/G6E/G6ET sedan and convert it to a wagon? It would have the handling, comfort and IRS... Ford designed a wagon for the FG so there are design plans out there somewhere which would provide visual reference...

I remember seeing the great work done by Hilliers on AU coupes in the past and understand they (and others) modify hearses and limos: surely an FG 'Sportwagon' conversion is possible. Has anyone tried?

An XR6 or G6E wagon with the LILPG would be fantastic...

A Coyote wagon would find buyers...

I know it's easier to buy a Commodore for the money, but this type of conversion would be quite appealing.

[Joe5619]

Let it gooo!!! Please for the love of god!!

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by JG34JA

I keep coming back to the wagon thread.

Does anyone on the forums know of an attempt to take an FG XR6/G6E/G6ET sedan and convert it to a wagon? It would have the handling, comfort and IRS... Ford designed a wagon for the FG so there are design plans out there somewhere which would provide visual reference...

I remember seeing the great work done by Hilliers on AU coupes in the past and understand they (and others) modify hearses and limos: surely an FG 'Sportwagon' conversion is possible. Has anyone tried?

An XR6 or G6E wagon with the LILPG would be fantastic...

A Coyote wagon would find buyers...

I know it's easier to buy a Commodore for the money, but this type of conversion would be quite appealing.

How would you go about doing it though? Chop the **** end off then graft on bits of the falcon wagon + (maybe) bits of the GMH sportshatch thing and lots of welding and beating.

Or completley strip out a bf falcon wagon, put on fg panels, driveline, interior and redo the rear end, like mixing up territory lights with somthing? Have it IRS and the lot. But doing that, the fg panels wont match the b series door/body shape?

Both would be extremely hard and expensive.

Or you could put FG panels on a GMH Sportswagon

The wagon is unfortunatly dead and it seems it shall remain like that for a long time.

[Road_Warrior]

Falcon wagon threads: the gift that keeps on giving.

[bingoTE50]

Holden Sportswagon is a good looking vehicle, heaps better than the last Falcon Wagon,it does look sportish. I have been in a SV6 version a few times and it is a good car . I can see why they sell .

[kezzer]

I would have bought a wagon over the FG sedan. Wanted a ute for practibility but hate the 2-piece. If there is a VF wagon, will consider upgrading.