BMW X5 copied Territoty suspension?

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Phase II

Mate I drove a E90 M3 around eastern creek 2 mths ago at a drive day and F$@k ME it was impressive, 105hp per cylinder reving to 8400 the sound and performance is amazing. Sure these cars arnt within reach of everyone but they are cheaper and more in reach than some compeditors..... and then you have the V10 M5 that is a big sedan, a complete sleeper and press the "M" button and you can race a Ferrari. If they arent all that they are certainly a bit of something else than. Drive an E90 and get back to me on M cars "aren't all that"

E92 M3 is my favourite M3. The first M3 I like. With 400Nm @ 3900rpm that's carried up, 7-spd M-DCT dual clutch copy of VW's DSG gearbox etc.

Doesn't quite have 105hp per cylinder (105 x 8 = 840hp) rather 103.5hp/litre (414hp divide by 4.0litres).

The V10 M5 can race a Ferrari... it sure can. Get lucky in a drag race. That's about it.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=45857713d06da

On all but one track the F430 wins.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=459a87e123ac0

On every track the F360 Modena wins.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585baaa80bd2

Finally to give the M5 a majority win you have to go back to an F355. A car released in 1994 with a chassis from 1989 against a car released in 2005. A car with a 280kW 350Nm 3.5 V8 against a 373kW 520Nm 5.0 V10. And yes, despite the weight difference (1350kg F355, 1755kg M5) the M5 still has the power/weight advantage. Now I wonder what would happen if you compared said F355 to the E34 M5 3.8 that was around in it's day?

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585baaa80bd2

They don't have them compared on many tracks unfortunately. How about the later V8 E39?

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585baaa80bd2

Oh right, the old Ferrari stomps it into the ground.

Yep, those M5's are Ferrari killers alright, comparing them to old, very obsolete models..

The E60 M5 is about equivalent to an FPV F6 Typhoon. The top Aussie metal has always been equivalent, or thereabouts. The VTII GTS300 stomped its rival E39 M5 into the ground. The 215kW HSV's were a pretty even match for the E34. Only when the E28 came out (1986) did Australia really have nothing to throw at it (VL Turbo? : ).

There's also the notion that BMW invented the sports sedan? As far as I know, they had no real rival to cars like the '67 Falcon GT XR, '68 Falcon GT XT, '69 Falcon GT-HO XW etc etc... real sports sedans from the 60s.

Or the 1968-1972 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3 and 1975-1981 Mercedes-Benz 450SEL 6.9.

BMW is a newcomer to that game, coming in with the M535i and E28 M5 in the mid-late 80's. Aussies have been building proper fast sports sedans before BMW knew what they were. :

[ea90gl]

I think he was being sarcastic when he said they could race ferraris, any way ferrari is custom built to be a superb track car, the BMW gives the best of all worlds something the ferrari cannot do

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

I think he was being sarcastic when he said they could race ferraris, any way ferrari is custom built to be a superb track car, the BMW gives the best of all worlds something the ferrari cannot do

Apparantley, the M5 is designed to be a 911 killer and the ultimate driver's car... oh wait, it kills nothing (Note - regurgitating BMW's own claims)

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Steffo

E92 M3 is my favourite M3. The first M3 I like. With 400Nm @ 3900rpm that's carried up, 7-spd M-DCT dual clutch copy of VW's DSG gearbox etc.

Doesn't quite have 105hp per cylinder (105 x 8 = 840hp) rather 103.5hp/litre (414hp divide by 4.0litres).

The V10 M5 can race a Ferrari... it sure can. Get lucky in a drag race. That's about it.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=45857713d06da

On all but one track the F430 wins.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=459a87e123ac0

On every track the F360 Modena wins.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585baaa80bd2

Finally to give the M5 a majority win you have to go back to an F355. A car released in 1994 with a chassis from 1989 against a car released in 2005. A car with a 280kW 350Nm 3.5 V8 against a 373kW 520Nm 5.0 V10. And yes, despite the weight difference (1350kg F355, 1755kg M5) the M5 still has the power/weight advantage. Now I wonder what would happen if you compared said F355 to the E34 M5 3.8 that was around in it's day?

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585baaa80bd2

They don't have them compared on many tracks unfortunately. How about the later V8 E39?

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585baaa80bd2

Oh right, the old Ferrari stomps it into the ground.

Yep, those M5's are Ferrari killers alright, comparing them to old, very obsolete models..

The E60 M5 is about equivalent to an FPV F6 Typhoon. The top Aussie metal has always been equivalent, or thereabouts. The VTII GTS300 stomped its rival E39 M5 into the ground. The 215kW HSV's were a pretty even match for the E34. Only when the E28 came out (1986) did Australia really have nothing to throw at it (VL Turbo? : ).

There's also the notion that BMW invented the sports sedan? As far as I know, they had no real rival to cars like the '67 Falcon GT XR, '68 Falcon GT XT, '69 Falcon GT-HO XW etc etc... real sports sedans from the 60s.

Or the 1968-1972 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3 and 1975-1981 Mercedes-Benz 450SEL 6.9.

BMW is a newcomer to that game, coming in with the M535i and E28 M5 in the mid-late 80's. Aussies have been building proper fast sports sedans before BMW knew what they were. :

Yep, those falcons sure were world wide recognised sports sedans :



The claim to have invented the sports sedan comes from the 2002, and you bloody well know that....XR-XY Falcons are/were fast 4 doors, yes... but they were an australian/nz-only sort of thing.....

Unlike cars such as the Alfa 105 GTA/GTV, BMW 2002 etc etc, which were raced(and sucessfully) around the globe....

Also, the Benz's were damn fast luxury saloons/sedans, which were converted by (the then aftermarket) AMG, and raced, with limited sucess, in europe...


Also, your a bit off with your comparo of the E34 M5 with the 215i HSV's, given all the M5's we got were bought in in 1990, and sold thru to (at the very latest end of 1992)....Which puts it against the VN GrpA SS/VP Clubsport...and we never got the e28 M5 here(I thought your google searches would have at least given you that information)


May I just say, you sheer hate for the BMW brand is something to be admired.
Its up there with a vn-on-stockies-with-the-driver-wearing-a-hrt-jacket's irrational, baseless hate of fords....well done! your in esteemed company ;)

[ea90gl]

I bet no one said the M5 was meant to be a porsche killer more so you keep picking on things or making them up once you are proven wrong, in other words this will go on for one very long time. any way who cares if the porsche beats the M5 around the track, just like the ferrari it is a purpose built track car where as the M5 is an all rounder.

[EDXRSIX]

dumbest question ever...

and pretty sure the GT's and all were named a Muscle car in its day....

and BMW's are awesome....pretty sure ford would have copied the X5,





either way im awesome.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

I bet no one said the M5 was meant to be a porsche killer more so you keep picking on things or making them up once you are proven wrong, in other words this will go on for one very long time

Whats that old saying?

Something about never arguing with idiots, because they will drag you down to there level and beat you with experience?


Well, this particular one is getting more irritating than a sand filled vagina....



And the best part? When we all give up arguing with a 19-20 y.old know it all, and just leave him to it, hes going to think in his own little mind that he has won, whereas, everyone is just sick of him heheh


heheh...

And, on that note....G'nite/morning(depending on your timezone).... yes, even to you Steffo, whom is no doubt googling away to mine up more stuff to prove me/us wrong hehe

[XCSEDAN]

Originally Posted by T-BOOST

Oh so you have driven the elite Territory (TTG) and compared it to the X5 have you? or was it just the TX against the X5?
Thats funny because my TTG s h i ts all over any X5 that iv'e come across at a set of white lines.
I also own a BMW and will agree build quality is far better in a BMW, but i wouldn't go as far as saying that there 'better in every aspect'. As i own both brands i have a pretty good knowlage of both, more than just a test drives worth.
Or saying ''but my auntie has one'' like steffo seems to keep pointing out.

yes i have driven TTGs, many times actually, they go well, but the engine has nothing on an X5, the 6T and NA are a good engine definatly not denying that, but a BMW motor just seems to respond better, adapt better (fuel, weather), and have more controlable power, is smoother etc.
my dad used to work for BMW, and a lot of my mates own terries (6 that i can think of off the top of my head)
im not disrespecting the terry, i just see the bmw as a better car, i meen hell it would want to be, BMWs have a LOT more engineering and development put behind them.
but that comes with the extra $$$ on the price tag
oh yeah... wait till the X5 comes out in the M series ;) that will be AMAZING, and they are doing the same thing with the X3 as well.

[ea90gl]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

Whats that old saying?

Something about never arguing with idiots, because they will drag you down to there level and beat you with experience?


Well, this particular one is getting more irritating than a sand filled vagina....



And the best part? When we all give up arguing with a 19-20 y.old know it all, and just leave him to it, hes going to think in his own little mind that he has won, whereas, everyone is just sick of him heheh


heheh...

And, on that note....G'nite/morning(depending on your timezone).... yes, even to you Steffo, whom is no doubt googling away to mine up more stuff to prove me/us wrong hehe

LOL couldnt agree more, problem is we cant hate for it we just have to learn to deal with it

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

Whats that old saying?

Something about never arguing with idiots, because they will drag you down to there level and beat you with experience?


Well, this particular one is getting more irritating than a sand filled vagina....



And the best part? When we all give up arguing with a 19-20 y.old know it all, and just leave him to it, hes going to think in his own little mind that he has won, whereas, everyone is just sick of him heheh


heheh...

And, on that note....G'nite/morning(depending on your timezone).... yes, even to you Steffo, whom is no doubt googling away to mine up more stuff to prove me/us wrong hehe

Good Morning!

I haven't used google yet, but if you want me to...

And as usual, the 'opponent,' if you will... resorts to the childish name calling first! Gee, who do you think 'won,' then? ;)

Originally Posted by ea90gl

I bet no one said the M5 was meant to be a porsche killer more so you keep picking on things or making them up once you are proven wrong, in other words this will go on for one very long time. any way who cares if the porsche beats the M5 around the track, just like the ferrari it is a purpose built track car where as the M5 is an all rounder.

I'm not making anything up see. BMW's own marketing department did that for me. So did the car mags, with silly unrealistic comparisons like Ferrari F430 vs BMW M5 and Lamborghini Gallardo vs BMW M5 and Porsche 911 Carrera S vs BMW M5 and so on and so forth. Each time with massive wins to the sports cars.

Yeah, the M5 is supposed to be an all-rounder, but all its competition stomps it at that. Its got the class's worst layout interior, the class's worst ride, the class's worst NVH etc etc. But that's a whole different kettle of fish to X5 vs Territory...

[ea90gl]

Well there you go its the marketing and the magazines that are the ones to put down and poke the finger at not the car, only a few are better than the M5 so when you compare it to 95% of other cars produced out thier it'll be be better in many ways which tells you something. Forget the X5 vs Territory now I think we all know whats better in reality, and if you think its better in your opinion then no one can say anything against that since each to thier own

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

Well there you go its the marketing and the magazines that are the ones to put down and poke the finger at not the car, only a few are better than the M5 so when you compare it to 95% of other cars produced out thier it'll be be better in many ways which tells you something. Forget the X5 vs Territory now I think we all know whats better in reality, and if you think its better in your opinion then no one can say anything against that since each to thier own

Here here, agree with this post entirely.

[T-BOOST]

just out of interest i'd like to know what car steffo owns?

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by T-BOOST

just out of interest i'd like to know what car steffo owns?

A Renault Clio Sport.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

Yep, those falcons sure were world wide recognised sports sedans :



The claim to have invented the sports sedan comes from the 2002, and you bloody well know that....XR-XY Falcons are/were fast 4 doors, yes... but they were an australian/nz-only sort of thing.....

Unlike cars such as the Alfa 105 GTA/GTV, BMW 2002 etc etc, which were raced(and sucessfully) around the globe....

Also, the Benz's were damn fast luxury saloons/sedans, which were converted by (the then aftermarket) AMG, and raced, with limited sucess, in europe...


Also, your a bit off with your comparo of the E34 M5 with the 215i HSV's, given all the M5's we got were bought in in 1990, and sold thru to (at the very latest end of 1992)....Which puts it against the VN GrpA SS/VP Clubsport...and we never got the e28 M5 here(I thought your google searches would have at least given you that information)


May I just say, you sheer hate for the BMW brand is something to be admired.
Its up there with a vn-on-stockies-with-the-driver-wearing-a-hrt-jacket's irrational, baseless hate of fords....well done! your in esteemed company ;)

I missed this gem of a post before... how could I!

Nice to see you continue with the name calling and immaturity.

Onto it then, I know the sports sedan claim comes from the 2002... except... its neither fast nor sporty. And "Pursuit," badged Falcons pre-date it but they're not really fast or sporty either. The GTs were local (and NZ and South Africa) but that doesn't mean they didn't exist or how well they performed is not to be compared. The fact is, BMW did not have a sedan as fast as an XY GT-HO was until the E34 M5 came about. That's quite a long time.

The E34 M5 was sold from 1989-1995 on a global scale basis, making it valid comparison with anything from a VN SS Group A to a VS HSV GTS 5.7 215i.

I didn't know we didn't get the E28 M5 because I don't care. And it really doesn't mean anything if we got it or didn't.

While your little analogy at the end of the post falls into the "name calling and childish," category I described before... I will reply to it...

My hatred of BMW is not without basis. That's one grave error in your assumptions. One of many.

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by Steffo

It soudns like crap. I hate the way they sound. Every time I hear one they sound like they're going to spit the valvetrain out of the exhaust if you keep revving them. One of my favourite descriptions for the engine noise is "rattling bucket of bolts."

I also hate the sound of the E46 M3 but i've only ever heard them from outside going past. It has a real rattly, high pitched shrill to it like you've described.

[5.4 GT]

Whats all this about the X5 build quality anyway?

They aren't even built in Germany. They are built in NA by cheap mexican labour.

A friend of mine has a '98 328i with all the M options (seats, bodykit, wheels, etc.) and an '01 4.4 X5 with all options and he says the 328i destroys the X5 in build quality.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by DaveO_SP

Whats all this about the X5 build quality anyway?

They aren't even built in Germany. They are built in NA by cheap mexican labour.

A friend of mine has a '98 328i with all the M options (seats, bodykit, wheels, etc.) and an '01 4.4 X5 with all options and he says the 328i destroys the X5 in build quality.

I was waiting for someone to point this out. And yep, you're spot on about the M3 sound. I can't stand it.

Just out of curiosity, is your mate's 328i an E36 or E46? 1998 was the transition year.

[Ruger]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Onto it then, I know the sports sedan claim comes from the 2002... except... its neither fast nor sporty. And "Pursuit," badged Falcons pre-date it but they're not really fast or sporty either. The GTs were local (and NZ and South Africa) but that doesn't mean they didn't exist or how well they performed is not to be compared. The fact is, BMW did not have a sedan as fast as an XY GT-HO was until the E34 M5 came about. That's quite a long time.

Now lets not forget the csl either. Thats is indeed a big fast car. The aussie falcons were muscle cars, put an XY GTHO on track against a 3.0 CSL and it would be a tough race. 0-100 in 7.3 and a top speed of 140mph. Not bad for a sports car from 71-75

The 2002 tii was no slouch. You seem to be the only person in the world that doesnt acknowledge this.

Not to mention ford didnt have anything as quick as the XY GT-HO since the 1990's lol

Originally Posted by Steffo

While your little analogy at the end of the post falls into the "name calling and childish," category I described before... I will reply to it...

My hatred of BMW is not without basis. That's one grave error in your assumptions. One of many.

Dead set you do not realise the way you act.

[jimmy_c]

The X5 I rode in was fairly nice on the road to ride in. (driving up pacific highway to brisbane) The same ride in the territory almost broke my back it was that rough and with the tyres let down somewhat.

If you think a territory rides any better than an X5 then your kidding yourself.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Ruger

Now lets not forget the csl either. Thats is indeed a big fast car. The aussie falcons were muscle cars, put an XY GTHO on track against a 3.0 CSL and it would be a tough race. 0-100 in 7.3 and a top speed of 140mph. Not bad for a sports car from 71-75

The 2002 tii was no slouch. You seem to be the only person in the world that doesnt acknowledge this.

Not to mention ford didnt have anything as quick as the XY GT-HO since the 1990's lol




Dead set you do not realise the way you act.

And there was the 2002 turbo.....but yep, those 2002 were neither fast(for there day) nor sporty....nope, not in the slightest....


Just remember folks, Googling info and passing it off as if you know it wont always work

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The E60 M5 is about equivalent to an FPV F6 Typhoon. The top Aussie metal has always been equivalent, or thereabouts.

Just had a look at some old stats (Motors laptimes at Winton)
BMW M6 – 1:39’s
BMW M5 – 1:41’s (poofteenth off the new Audi RS4’s times)
Mercedes AMG CLK (6.3?) – 1:43’s

The best the’ve got out of an FPV (auto) was 1:43’s

Incidentally there are a few E34 M5’s and M635CSi’s in the country – all imports, they had the old iron block straight 6 out of the M1. And a few original four cylinder M3’s coming in (haven’t seen any 2.5 litre evo’s yet). Bavarian Murder Weapons may be nice cars when new but they can become hellishly expensive.

Apparently the old shape (front struts) X5 4.6is did 1:50’s at Winton, the old shape 4.8 litre should be quicker again and the suspiciously cheaper new shape (wishbones) X5 4.8 should be quicker again. FPV were claiming that their TT was 6 seconds slower around there than an F6 so I’d be expecting 1:49’s. hmmmm.

[Ruger]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

And there was the 2002 turbo.....but yep, those 2002 were neither fast(for there day) nor sporty....nope, not in the slightest....


Just remember folks, Googling info and passing it off as if you know it wont always work

Oh google. thy fountain of knowledge. Give us our daily blessing of false information and useless facts.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Ruger

Now lets not forget the csl either. Thats is indeed a big fast car. The aussie falcons were muscle cars, put an XY GTHO on track against a 3.0 CSL and it would be a tough race. 0-100 in 7.3 and a top speed of 140mph. Not bad for a sports car from 71-75

The 2002 tii was no slouch. You seem to be the only person in the world that doesnt acknowledge this.

Not to mention ford didnt have anything as quick as the XY GT-HO since the 1990's lol

You're right, Ford didn't have anything as fast as the XY GT-HO was until what, 2002 (T3 TE50).

The 2002 tii was no speed demon either. With a bone-crushing 97kW and 178Nm it managed an astonishing 8.2 sec 0-100, 16.5 1/4 and 193km/h top speed.

The '73 2002 Turbo was far more impressive with 125kW 240Nm, a 7.3 0-100 and 209km/h top whack. The interesting thing about the fast models (1968 2002 tii and 1973 2002 Turbo) is they came after the XR GT and XY GT-HO.

The '71 BMW 3.0 CSL was definitley quick for its day, 3.0L, 133kW, 255Nm, 7.3 to 100, 213km/h... but its still trailing the Hoey by alot.

The '72 3.0 CSL with the jump to 147kW and 272Nm is still at 7.3 to 100 and a 15.7 standing quarter and goes 214km/h.

The '73 3.0 CSL which is actually a 3.2 despite growing to 151kW 286Nm got slower to 100 with a 7.5, 222km/h top speed. Impressive cars for the early 70s, but they're no GT-HO.

Originally Posted by Ruger

Dead set you do not realise the way you act.

Well, see, I don't go calling people childish names or trying to put silly assumptions about them forward that have no truth behind them. And I especially wouldn't if I had a moderator title to my name. Aren't you supposed to set an example...? oh wait..

[Rev28K]

No the 2002 wasn’t quick at all. And the block wasn’t that great either. Doesn’t anyone remember the 80’s BMW F1 engines? The blocks were based on high mileage PRODUCTION 2002 blocks. 1500ish bhp from 1.6 litres.

How many 14 year old production engines have one Formula One championships, only the Repco Brabham (based on a Buick block) springs to my mind

[Steffo]

Yep, the 2002 did have a good engine. But that's an engine. The 2002 wasn't used in F1, its engine block was.

Stock on stock road cars, Ford Australia was mopping the floor with BMW in the late 60s and early 70s. And with most manufacturers, actually.

[T-BOOST]

Originally Posted by Steffo

A Renault Clio Sport.

And you knock the way BMW's look

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by T-BOOST

And you knock the way BMW's look

The way they look?

I love the E90/2 3-Series, E46, E30, E21, E39 5-Series, E34, E28, the 7-Series before the latest, the E63 6-Series, the Z3 and the Z4 Coupe, the E31 8-Series, the old 6-Series...

The E60 5-Series and the new shape 7-Series are pretty bloody ugly... most people agree on that.

Why are you bringing up looks? I'm talking about build quality and performance. What do looks have to do with that? :togo: :

PS - Where has anyone been knocking their looks? The only things I've noticed are myself saying the R32 & S3 look better then the 1-Series and that I think the F6 Typhoon and Boxster S look better then the E46 M3.

Wow... major knocking of looks there... :

[Fordoldie]

To answer the original question, a senior Ford design spokesman is on record as saying they used the European designs as a benchmark when they designed the new front suspension for the Territory.

Having driven both extensively I can say that the difference between both vehicles in on-road manners is ...chalk and cheese

The Territory has developed into a very well specced machine worthy of praise IMO but it certainly aint no X5.

The new X5 is bigger too

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

To answer the original question, a senior Ford design spokesman is on record as saying they used the European designs as a benchmark when they designed the new front suspension for the Territory.

Having driven both extensively I can say that the difference between both vehicles in on-road manners is ...chalk and cheese

The Territory has developed into a very well specced machine worthy of praise IMO but it certainly aint no X5.

The new X5 is bigger too

shh....your not allowed to express an opinion that a BMW could possibly be better than a Ford....at any time in history


:P