power prices and renewables

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

.

the power industry is so worried about this they are already preempting this scenario by discussing a "supply charge" if the lines go past your house, same as sewerage, whether you use it or not.

The big players are in a panic as the "Energy Market Death Spiral" concept plays out. As suppliers/retailers raise prices to extend/upgrade their network, consumers "opt out" (Solar or efficiency) – forcing the utility to spread the cost over fewer consumers, so the price goes up etc etc. Therefore lobbying governments to change rules to maintain income and profit.
Stand by for ever increasing energy costs.

As discussed in one of AGL's own research papers
http://aglblog.com.au/wp-content/upl...th-Spiral1.pdf

JP

[poppa smurf]

yes,.... investors are also withdrawing their support in an effort to sustain their profits........gas is skyrocketing now as the multinationals take over.

interesting that we are seeing more and more large companies that are starting to specialise in "off grid" installs.

had a look at one "pro" system, very neat, everything in a shipping container, diesel generator and battery bank fully installed....complete with wind turbine out the front.

around $35,000.....which I think is pretty good for all top shelf gear......can be paid off interest free as well.

very easy to go "off grid" and quite legal.......just don't pay your bill, you will very quickly be "off grid" along with the other thousands of people here in S.A.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

of course you can disconnect from the grid.......quite legal......I have been involved in many "off grid housing builds".

many stations out here have never been connected to the grid and never will be.

are You saying they are all illegal?

I grew up using kero fridges, battery banks and free light generators.....a lot of these are still in use.

the power industry is so worried about this they are already preempting this scenario by discussing a "supply charge" if the lines go past your house, same as sewerage, whether you use it or not.

I'm not saying you cannot build a house & being off grid such as where power is not available, try getting your house disconnected if you are hooked up? this will give you something to do & tell me if I'm wrong with proof.

[poppa smurf]

ah! now out comes the attitude......

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

ah! now out comes the attitude......

My apologies, sorry if it sounds I have attitude in which I did not mean to but asking for some type of proof if you think houses can be taken off grid once connected.
As I'm aware of it they won't allow it unless your house become uninhabitable & unfit for occupancy.

[poppa smurf]

I suggest you contact a solar retailer and ask about "stand alone" systems in your region (laws vary state top state, I only comment on SA matters)........I can assure you they are readily available and getting cheaper.

Blackmore's in Laura South Australia (just down the flinders from us) has been doing this for quite a while now......we also have quite a few here off grid now, I'm looking very closely at doing this when the power jumps again.

anyone can have their power removed for any reason at any time, there is no law in South Australia that holds you to the grid.

the law was tested recently in Florida over a lady who went off grid the power suppliers tried to force her back on.......I don't know the outcome, but it made headlines all over.

[karj]

Originally Posted by trublu

I'm not saying you cannot build a house & being off grid such as where power is not available, try getting your house disconnected if you are hooked up? this will give you something to do & tell me if I'm wrong with proof.

I don't know much about going off-grid, but I've not heard that it is illegal to do so. Do you know something I don't?

I just googled it quickly and came up with a thread on the whirlpool forums that I couldn't really be bothered reading through, but someone under the username of 'bird-person' said this in 2013:

Originally Posted by bird-person

I'm in NSW and I went off-grid a couple of years ago. Just asked Country Energy for a final reading and for the main fuse to be pulled. No service charge, nor any other charges since. A reconnection for same account holder would be free of charge, but would need electrician to OK the house wiring et al.

Going off-grid doesn't seem to be illegal.

[loony888]

Originally Posted by trublu

My apologies, sorry if it sounds I have attitude in which I did not mean to but asking for some type of proof if you think houses can be taken off grid once connected.
As I'm aware of it they won't allow it unless your house become uninhabitable & unfit for occupancy.

on the contrary, if you vacate a property in SE QLD it's energex policy to disconnect service immediately. even if a new tenant is due to move in the next day there is a reconnection charge to do an internal and external inspection and install the fuse reconnecting supply. It's under the guise of "safety" hence the cursory inspection but it's mainly due to disputes between previous and current tenants and who owes what, as well as allocating the new account to the requested electricity retailer with the meter reading by the supplier to the retailer for an accurate initial read.

There is no law that says you _have_ to reconnect the power, and if you haven't nominated a retailer to supply you you won't get any correspondence at all.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

anyone can have their power removed for any reason at any time, there is no law in South Australia that holds you to the grid.

Can you point me to any reference of people disconnecting from the grid permanently then rewiring their houses to solar or Generators

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by loony888

on the contrary, if you vacate a property in SE QLD it's energex policy to disconnect service immediately. even if a new tenant is due to move in the next day there is a reconnection charge to do an internal and external inspection and install the fuse reconnecting supply. It's under the guise of "safety" hence the cursory inspection but it's mainly due to disputes between previous and current tenants and who owes what, as well as allocating the new account to the requested electricity retailer with the meter reading by the supplier to the retailer for an accurate initial read.

There is no law that says you _have_ to reconnect the power, and if you haven't nominated a retailer to supply you you won't get any correspondence at all.

I'm not talking disconnections, I'm talking permanently disconnecting supply & meter then rewiring to other alternatives of power.
Reference would be appreciated.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by trublu

I'm not talking disconnections, I'm talking permanently disconnecting supply & meter then rewiring to other alternatives of power.
Reference would be appreciated.

Do you have any references to show that it's not legal to do so?

You seem to be pushing hard for proof that's it's legal to disconnect, but not putting up any evidence in the contrary.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Do you have any references to show that it's not legal to do so?

You seem to be pushing hard for proof that's it's legal to disconnect, but not putting up any evidence in the contrary.

I know people can request power disconnection from the provider, have the fuse removed or remotely by Smart Meter, no arguments here but to have your self disconnected permanently & thus electing to use Solar or Generator is another matter in which I'm quite sure there is Legislation preventing this.

For clarification of my original question I Know you can provide your own power in remote locations where there is no power supply available but my question was meant on existing dwellings that are connected to an energy provider.

If it can be done I merely asking a reference to the answer if given.

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

yes,.... investors are also withdrawing their support in an effort to sustain their profits........gas is skyrocketing now as the multinationals take over.

interesting that we are seeing more and more large companies that are starting to specialise in "off grid" installs.

had a look at one "pro" system, very neat, everything in a shipping container, diesel generator and battery bank fully installed....complete with wind turbine out the front.

around $35,000.....which I think is pretty good for all top shelf gear......can be paid off interest free as well.

very easy to go "off grid" and quite legal.......just don't pay your bill, you will very quickly be "off grid" along with the other thousands of people here in S.A.

So Poppa, how would you do it, if you had 5kw of solar panels and you wanted to go off the grid. Most of the year here, the solar covers the bill. Would you need a smaller version of "The Pro" system as back up ?

[ute83]

[QUOTE=trublu;5256137]I know people can request power disconnection from the provider, have the fuse removed or remotely by Smart Meter, no arguments here but to have your self disconnected permanently & thus electing to use Solar or Generator is another matter in which I'm quite sure there is Legislation preventing this.

For clarification of my original question I Know you can provide your own power in remote locations where there is no power supply available but my question was meant on existing dwellings that are connected to an energy provider.

If it can be done I merely asking a reference to the answer if given.[/QUOTE

http://www.momentumenergy.com.au/sys...ply%20form.pdf
Try this.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by trublu

If it can be done I merely asking a reference to the answer if given.

Just texted the brother in Law who works for the Australian Energy regulator in policy an dfinance. He states there is no obligation (law) for anyone to connect to any consumer utility in Australia.
My reading is you can go off grid, stay off grid or never connect to the grid at will.


JP

[Itsme]

[QUOTE=ute83;5256293]

Originally Posted by trublu

I know people can request power disconnection from the provider, have the fuse removed or remotely by Smart Meter, no arguments here but to have your self disconnected permanently & thus electing to use Solar or Generator is another matter in which I'm quite sure there is Legislation preventing this.

For clarification of my original question I Know you can provide your own power in remote locations where there is no power supply available but my question was meant on existing dwellings that are connected to an energy provider.

If it can be done I merely asking a reference to the answer if given.[/QUOTE

http://www.momentumenergy.com.au/sys...ply%20form.pdf
Try this.

Bit odd the form states the property must be vacated so I would say this is for demolition purpose only.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Just texted the brother in Law who works for the Australian Energy regulator in policy an dfinance. He states there is no obligation (law) for anyone to connect to any consumer utility in Australia.
My reading is you can go off grid, stay off grid or never connect to the grid at will.
JP

Maybe so maybe not, try & get a certificate of occupancy when a house gets built where power supply is available to the front door if you get my meaning.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by trublu

Maybe so maybe not, try & get a certificate of occupancy when a house gets built where power supply is available to the front door if you get my meaning.

You raise an interesting point that potentially highlights a disconnect between legislation and the realities of our society today so I just rang Adelaide's preeminent private building certifier and in SA class 1 dwellings do not need certificates of occupancy. Furthermore for other classes of buildings the certificate of occupancy can be granted as long as the energy requirements are met by either connection to the grid or if a stand alone electricity supply system is in place, solar, generator, wind et al.
You cannot connect to an new septic system if there is a sewer adjacent the property, but you can collect water and have storage tanks and not connect to the water supply system should you choose.
The certificate of occupancy can be granted within the urban and suburban realm without connection to City Power and water if adequate supply is provided insitu.

JP

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by trublu

Can you point me to any reference of people disconnecting from the grid permanently then rewiring their houses to solar or Generators

why would I do that........why would I waste my time and energy convincing a person, who will obviously not listen nor learn and who has insulted me already,........

we are doing it out here, have been for over five years (my involvement anyway)

I am looking at going off grid possibly next year, depending on the next power rise and the cost of Batteries.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

So Poppa, how would you do it, if you had 5kw of solar panels and you wanted to go off the grid. Most of the year here, the solar covers the bill. Would you need a smaller version of "The Pro" system as back up ?

the answer to that is likened to the "piece of string" question.......

we look at power usage, solar generation capability, position of house, space availability.

5 kilowatt may be enough for person (a) but not enough for person (b)

a generator backup is usually a must, cloudy days, air conditioning, welding general heavy use.

however we have people with shacks doing it easy with 3 kw systems and half a dozen old car batteries.

if you want it all, it costs.

in larger installs I only act as an "advisor" or "go between" for those who ask about going off mains......

a lot of solar terminology can't be understood by a lot of folks.....doesn't mean they have to be defrauded or bamboozled by BS.

[NAK302]

we recently looked into "stand alone" after the rules changed here in central QLD a couple of months ago. the issue wasn't whether we disconnected or not, the issue was being able to store our own energy whilst on grid. basically we can now have "stand alone" AND still be on grid, i know that sounds weird, but it means the best of both worlds if we have too many low sunshine days like in late summer when the rains turn up. the cost was around 15k on top of the 10k we've already spent. the big money was the storage, which i believe over time should come down to a more realistic price.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

You raise an interesting point that potentially highlights a disconnect between legislation and the realities of our society today so I just rang Adelaide's preeminent private building certifier and in SA class 1 dwellings do not need certificates of occupancy. Furthermore for other classes of buildings the certificate of occupancy can be granted as long as the energy requirements are met by either connection to the grid or if a stand alone electricity supply system is in place, solar, generator, wind et al.
You cannot connect to an new septic system if there is a sewer adjacent the property, but you can collect water and have storage tanks and not connect to the water supply system should you choose.
The certificate of occupancy can be granted within the urban and suburban realm without connection to City Power and water if adequate supply is provided insitu.

JP

Appreciate your answer.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

why would I do that........why would I waste my time and energy convincing a person, who will obviously not listen nor learn and who has insulted me already,........

we are doing it out here, have been for over five years (my involvement anyway)

I am looking at going off grid possibly next year, depending on the next power rise and the cost of Batteries.

Thats alright poppa smurf, I just asked a few questions which you obviously cannot or don't want to answer, I did apologise in an earlier post but we will leave it at that.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by NAK302

we recently looked into "stand alone" after the rules changed here in central QLD a couple of months ago. the issue wasn't whether we disconnected or not, the issue was being able to store our own energy whilst on grid. basically we can now have "stand alone" AND still be on grid, i know that sounds weird, but it means the best of both worlds if we have too many low sunshine days like in late summer when the rains turn up. the cost was around 15k on top of the 10k we've already spent. the big money was the storage, which i believe over time should come down to a more realistic price.

just be aware of the "twin system" that you will still be a small energy generator....

the government is currently looking into ways of charging us to "use the grid".

be aware also that various councils have differing opinions on "stand alone"......we had one that would not approve under any circumstances.

noise and safety issues kept getting touted.......even though the system easily passed all requirements.....in the end it took a lawyer to sort it out.

a nasty neighbour can also put a damper on the setup as well if he or she complains to council.

[xisled]

For everyone that is saying to disconnect to the grid is as simple as removing the fuse you are incorrect.

if the meter is installed at the property, then you can still be charged a supply charge for having the meter installed at the property, even if the fuse to the home has been removed and no power is being used.

The only way to go off the grid and not be charged a supply charge is have the meter abolished. This is different, basically your meter get removed as well as all supply lines etc.

There is no law saying Power must be connected, as meters are abolished on a daily basis and not replaced.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by xisled

For everyone that is saying to disconnect to the grid is as simple as removing the fuse you are incorrect.

if the meter is installed at the property, then you can still be charged a supply charge for having the meter installed at the property, even if the fuse to the home has been removed and no power is being used.

The only way to go off the grid and not be charged a supply charge is have the meter abolished. This is different, basically your meter get removed as well as all supply lines etc.

There is no law saying Power must be connected, as meters are abolished on a daily basis and not replaced.

Can you point me in the direction on how you officially go about this process of having it done, who do you contact?

[XP6]

Getting off the connection legality debate...

How would someone with my kind of power requirements go a stand alone system that doesnt cost as much as a new 4x4 F150!

My problem is I do a lot of woodwork using machinery, a typical use like maybe ripping a length of wood in half on a summers day
3hp tablesaw, large start up load(about 25amps) and 13amps fully loaded
3hp dust extractor, constant large load(its always shifting air... 12amps constant)
shed load of lights(20 banks of double fluro's)
the possibility of a 3hp air compressor kicking in
fridge
A large splity Aircon(shed will be lined and insulated)and 4 ceiling fans

And then there's the load from the house too think of as well, this above will be the in the new shed once the house is built(we have a 100amp connection, that was a real PITA to get too) 3 or 2 phase is not available
My current set up at home is just usable on a standard 63amp connection during summer and I dont have the aircon or fridge and a lot smaller lighting set up.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by XP6

Getting off the connection legality debate...

How would someone with my kind of power requirements go a stand alone system that doesnt cost as much as a new 4x4 F150!

My problem is I do a lot of woodwork using machinery, a typical use like maybe ripping a length of wood in half on a summers day
3hp tablesaw, large start up load(about 25amps) and 13amps fully loaded
3hp dust extractor, constant large load(its always shifting air... 12amps constant)
shed load of lights(20 banks of double fluro's)
the possibility of a 3hp air compressor kicking in
fridge
A large splity Aircon(shed will be lined and insulated)and 4 ceiling fans

And then there's the load from the house too think of as well, this above will be the in the new shed once the house is built(we have a 100amp connection, that was a real PITA to get too) 3 or 2 phase is not available
My current set up at home is just usable on a standard 63amp connection during summer and I dont have the aircon or fridge and a lot smaller lighting set up.

Sounds like you are in the sticks.
To be honest & my opinion only would be Generator for you but for costs it won't be that cheap.

You are lucky in getting the 100 amp connection, here in Victoria you can be restricted down to 45 amps which gives you the type of predicament we live under these days with the power companies not able to or wanting to keep pace with our population growth

[ute83]

Originally Posted by trublu

Thats alright poppa smurf, I just asked a few questions which you obviously cannot or don't want to answer, I did apologise in an earlier post but we will leave it at that.

As far as I know, all you have to do is ring your retailer and tell them to disconnect your power on whatever date you choose. Once that is done you ring your distributor and tell them to collect their metering equipment.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by ute83

As far as I know, all you have to do is ring your retailer and tell them to disconnect your power on whatever date you choose. Once that is done you ring your distributor and tell them to collect their metering equipment.

Unless the dwelling is being demolished/renovated the meter will remain, this applies to Victoria, this is what I was told a few years back.

I will be making some inquiries with relevant authorities when I get a chance.