10 years since GM announced they would cease making cars in Australia - Page 4

roKWiz · 20-12-2023, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprintey

First few cars were red 173 HJ, red 202 pre-ADR27a HJ, red 202 post ADR27a HZ, 245 Hemi VG and then 302W XW. Mates had 161 HG, 308 LX, 202 HJ x 2, 225 2brl VF, 202 VC, 186 glide in HR Prem that I remember. Girlfriend had 253 auto WB. Also got to drive an aquaintances 250 XY 3 on tree which was in immaculate condition and maintained by a fellow who did his apprenticeship on those - THAT was a car!

The 173 3 on tree was a bit gutless, the HJ 202 trimatic was lovely, smooth and torquey within reason. Also smooth was the trimatic, though it was half way to stuffed and everyone called them 'traumatic'. Enough power in that one for me, and the motor was a strong one. Parts were ridiculously cheap, you could still find fan belts in country delis... They were very simple to maintain, economy was OK. I could get close to 30mpg with the 173 on the highway, not far off that in the 202.

The HZ 202 motor, after emission controls, had power but I think I got a bad example from a dodgy seller. Ended up going onto 4 cylinders and getting really rough, then Dad used it as trade in on his VR (3.8 was rough rubbish compared to 202, but it had a bit of honk).

202's were supposed to burn valves in the tropics (didnt apply to us) and the older crew said the 186 was the best motor. I did love driving the 186 HR.

The 245 Hemi was base model, 3 on the tree again, drums all round - and it could flog the WB! But it was noisy, more vibration than the Holdens. A happy surprise was the 225 2 barrel in the VF wagon, that had smoothness and power. I've since driven a 225 auto push button AP5, it felt similar.

The 302 XW was a revelation, with the sound, the torque, the ability to just eat the miles and way more comfortable seats in Fairmont trim. The Holden wagons were better off road and hunting down surf tracks, didn't get bogged as often.

Rokwiz I guess those cars were formative for me, I do rate the 202 trimatic as quite pleasant. So finding a similar feel, smoothness, way the torque was applied, and floatyness in the VF Calais (non V) was a nice surprise. A lot of new cars just don't have the well sorted smooth 6 feel that these Holdens and their rivals had.

The 202 traumatic was a reasonably good combination in HJ and HZ, (not so the HX) where they really shone was doing a Dellow conversion to the far superior 5 speed Supra box and using hydraulic clutch mech rather than the Aussie 4 speed linkages.
The Supra was a much better gear ratio than the standard Celica 5 speed swap.

A 202 triple SU or Stromberg conversion was the way to achieve great fuel milege. The SU mod made the traumatic almost impossible to drive as the carbs took all the autos vacuum.
I did 3 Dellow conversions in the panel vans.

The 6s were a much better proposition to modify compared to the 253/308s imo.
My vans rode so well and handled great, the double wishbone front end made them a joy to drive compared to the Ford.

and as I keep mentioning the timing gears were super reliable, my present day Perkins/Mazda diesels are all timing gear driven.

**FTE217** · 20-12-2023, 04:10 PM

the 186 was a good motor from my experience in stock for a while, i thought it was bullet proof copped a hiding - then some genie extractors a holley350 jetted to suit it went great even with the 3 on the tree box originally.
This was HG I had roK. Those box linkages were rubbish mind you, they'd lock between 1st/2nd shifts when used agressively.
Sold it before intending a celica box was next.
Yep - I didn't rate the 202 unless you changed the carbs, triples were great but fussy buggas to keep tuned.
I then had a HQ 308 wagon with a full twin zorst fitted, thought it went great and sounded awesum.
I woke up got back into Falcons next.

roKWiz · 20-12-2023, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTE217

the 186 was a good motor from my experience in stock for a while, i thought it was bullet proof copped a hiding - then some genie extractors a holley350 jetted to suit it went great even with the 3 on the tree box originally.
This was HG I had roK. Those box linkages were rubbish mind you, they'd lock between 1st/2nd shifts when used agressively.
Sold it before intending a celica box was next.
Yep - I didn't rate the 202 unless you changed the carbs, triples were great but fussy buggas to keep tuned.
I then had a HQ 308 wagon with a full twin zorst fitted, thought it went great and sounded awesum.
I woke up got back into Falcons next.

I regularly tuned my own on the courier van it was all in the sound.
My triples carby tuning kit, consisted of a foot long rubber hose, a flat head screwdriver, some ATF and some emery paper for where the pistons could sometimes grab.

The triple Strombergs needed less playing around with but the SU's come on those pollished alloy horns looked fantastic.

Best thing I ever bought from American Auto parts was the adjustable fuel regulator valve.
1/2 pound of pressure was perfect.

Sprintey · 20-12-2023, 05:30 PM

You guys ever try them with something like this?

http://www.rexresearch.com/fishcarb/fish.htm

Be interested to try, it looks so simple.

Bro has now bought a classic Kingswood, wonder if I convince the Mrs that our new car should have a red 6 in it...

Sprintey · 20-12-2023, 05:35 PM

The other 6 cyl/auto combination I truly loved was the 4.0i and 4sp auto in the ED series, it was just perfect.

roKWiz · 20-12-2023, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprintey

You guys ever try them with something like this?

http://www.rexresearch.com/fishcarb/fish.htm

Be interested to try, it looks so simple.

Bro has now bought a classic Kingswood, wonder if I convince the Mrs that our new car should have a red 6 in it...

Would be good to use on the auto's most went the Holley route if they didn't go triples. SU Stromies, Weber.

**FTE217** · 20-12-2023, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I regularly tuned my own on the courier van it was all in the sound.
My triples carby tuning kit, consisted of a foot long rubber hose, a flat head screwdriver, some ATF and some emery paper for where the pistons could sometimes grab.

The triple Strombergs needed less playing around with but the SU's come on those pollished alloy horns looked fantastic.

Best thing I ever bought from American Auto parts was the adjustable fuel regulator valve.
1/2 pound of pressure was perfect.

Likewise with the Holley - carried different jets in ready when it played up , nice and simple to change jets.
Strombergs were always the easier compared to SU’s and agreed looked S hot.
Lift the bonnet and just looked muscle whereas strombergs OE look.

Sprintey nah never used that carb.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sprintey · 20-12-2023, 05:48 PM

Slightly off topic - did a wayback machine search on Mike Brown's old Fish carburettor links, here they are:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220529...om/bccfish.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20220529...m/morefish.htm

look how simple the thing is in those pics!

https://web.archive.org/web/20220529...om/fishtoc.htm

table of contents

**DFB FGXR6** · 20-12-2023, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTE217

the 186 was a good motor from my experience in stock for a while, i thought it was bullet proof copped a hiding - then some genie extractors a holley350 jetted to suit it went great even with the 3 on the tree box originally.
This was HG I had roK. Those box linkages were rubbish mind you, they'd lock between 1st/2nd shifts when used agressively.
Sold it before intending a celica box was next.
Yep - I didn't rate the 202 unless you changed the carbs, triples were great but fussy buggas to keep tuned.
I then had a HQ 308 wagon with a full twin zorst fitted, thought it went great and sounded awesum.
I woke up got back into Falcons next.

My father swears by the 186 as being the sweet spot of those old Holden engines, in particular them being more rev happy than the larger version.

Dr Smith · 21-12-2023, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I have a question which is out of curiosity only, which I hope somebody can give an answer.
Not trying to get involved with what each Political Party did here or there , this is just a curiosity.

If we go back to a few years before Ford left the Market for example, is there a figure that could be roughly approximated as to how much the Government would spend a year on the Australian Automotive Industry in subsidies?

The 2nd part is how much does the Australian Government give back now, in Tax Incentives on Dual Cab Utes in a rough yearly figure?

Maybe this is the wrong comparison to make.

I am not sure if it can be answered but just trying to see the before and after and all the implications and jobs that have changed in the 10+ year period since the Car Industry closed.

I remember reading the same numbers below on a more official website but this is what found just now:
https://theconversation.com/factchec...ceived%20%24A1.

So Holden received considerably more.

Quote:

If we just look at direct subsidies and tariff support in Australia, under the current Labor government car plan $A5.4 billion will be extended in subsidies to the industry over 13 years from 2008 to 2020, totalling about $A415 million a year.

Over the last 10 years or so, Holden has received $A1.8 billion - $A150 million each year from a potential $A2.17 billion pool - while Ford has obtained an estimated $A1.1 billion.

Toyota will not comment officially on subsidies, but it is estimated the Japanese company received about $A1.2 billion in the last decade.

**FTE217** · 21-12-2023, 11:23 AM

https://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/16/...-in-australia/

Cyber some good questions but to find that data is beyound my time trying to find sites with related intel and broken down, near on impossible I'd say.
Interestingly as asked, what did the Gov's do post closures with the funding put aside originally for the OE's.
Squandered on other lost projects more than anything else, grants left right and centre that you shake your head over yaddayaddayadda.....
Even though infrastructure would have needed that money more than anywhere else incl hospitals - new dams you name it.

roKWiz · 21-12-2023, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

My father swears by the 186 as being the sweet spot of those old Holden engines, in particular them being more rev happy than the larger version.

Just ask Brocky with his 202 Ford GT killer in 72'.

roKWiz · 21-12-2023, 12:31 PM

Been watching this story on the Holden Dealer Team between 69-87.

Love the story of Larry Perkins who was tasked to road deliver the prototype Torana's to the various racing circuit around south eastern Australia.

At 19.50 mins Brock and Firth tells the story of Larry delivering the XU2 down through Ouyen, Vic at 7000rpm.

ToryMikey · 21-12-2023, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprintey

The other 6 cyl/auto combination I truly loved was the 4.0i and 4sp auto in the ED series, it was just perfect.

Never liked autos usually, but having just got my EL auto I am beginning to see the appeal. Particularly since I put on new front pads and rotors, it's super smooth.

The 4.0i on the other hand? Don't get me wrong I love the Barra but the SOHC is just excellent.

Sprintey · 21-12-2023, 12:53 PM

Yep ToryMikey, now the industry is gone we can reflect on the sweet spots. For me it was an ED Classic, our first newish family car, 6 yo and 50,000 back in 2000 with two little kids on the scene. What a beautiful car.

The 4 speed auto was so well matched to that motor. There's a hill in Perth's southern suburbs that cars usually run away down, ie go over the 60 limit - near the former Melville Holden ironically. Put the shifter in 3rd, ED did that one and held so smoothly. It's shifts were great too. Whoever set the gearing did very well. The ED felt more solid than my wife's parents EBII (foam in the pillars, extra deadening) and was SO much nicer than my Dad's (timing sender unit failing) VR.

Next to compare was the MIL's AUII SR: that had more revs on takeoff, could spin the wheels a bit more taking off onto the road from gravel at farm gates. In retrospect with 20 years passed, I think I liked the ED motor more. It did get a bit thrashy at higher revs, but most of the time I was crusing around. Really liked the light weight of the black GLi steering wheel on the Classic - and those ones must have been well made because plenty are still in good condition.

Then for work had a lot of Ecotecs, Barras, Alloytechs (meh), Magna 3.5 (good combo), Camry 2.4s (meh). Coming back to the ED was always nice. The ecotec is great in hindsight, given what came after; at the time it was (rightly) regarded as a bit rough. The Barra had a bit more rev higher, but lost something lower. I remember driving an AU1 Fairmont wagon with the SOHC and that was delightful and had a lot of the E series feel. Barra and ZF is a great combo, probably the best in the last decade of Aussie cars. What's better today?

ToryMikey · 21-12-2023, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yep ToryMikey, now the industry is gone we can reflect on the sweet spots. For me it was an ED Classic, our first newish family car, 6 yo and 50,000 back in 2000 with two little kids on the scene. What a beautiful car.

The 4 speed auto was so well matched to that motor. There's a hill in Perth's southern suburbs that cars usually run away down, ie go over the 60 limit - near the former Melville Holden ironically. Put the shifter in 3rd, ED did that one and held so smoothly. It's shifts were great too. Whoever set the gearing did very well. The ED felt more solid than my wife's parents EBII (foam in the pillars, extra deadening) and was SO much nicer than my Dad's (timing sender unit failing) VR.

Next to compare was the MIL's AUII SR: that had more revs on takeoff, could spin the wheels a bit more taking off onto the road from gravel at farm gates. In retrospect with 20 years passed, I think I liked the ED motor more. It did get a bit thrashy at higher revs, but most of the time I was crusing around. Really liked the light weight of the black GLi steering wheel on the Classic - and those ones must have been well made because plenty are still in good condition.

Then for work had a lot of Ecotecs, Barras, Alloytechs (meh), Magna 3.5 (good combo), Camry 2.4s (meh). Coming back to the ED was always nice. The ecotec is great in hindsight, given what came after; at the time it was (rightly) regarded as a bit rough. The Barra had a bit more rev higher, but lost something lower. I remember driving an AU1 Fairmont wagon with the SOHC and that was delightful and had a lot of the E series feel. Barra and ZF is a great combo, probably the best in the last decade of Aussie cars. What's better today?

What's better today? Nothing. See my other thread. You have to go Euro to get something nice these days, not one of the top 20 selling cars in Australia has more enthusiast appeal than a FG XT.

Sprintey · 21-12-2023, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

What's better today? Nothing. See my other thread. You have to go Euro to get something nice these days, not one of the top 20 selling cars in Australia has more enthusiast appeal than a FG XT.

Couldn't agree more, see other thread.

I'm lurking late 2016 Territory (2wd) petrols ads online, and they don't stay for sale for long...

Citroënbender · 21-12-2023, 01:10 PM

Probably being grasped by people who don’t realise that sorting a diesel Territory is still better value than changing horses.

ToryMikey · 21-12-2023, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Probably being grasped by people who don’t realise that sorting a diesel Territory is still better value than changing horses.

I disagree on the diesel front, a Barra 195 Territory which drinks 91 will cost the same in fuel. But apart from that you’re spot on, with the added benefit of lower servicing costs and much more DIY friendly maintenance.

Not to mention, you can get modern tech in a Territory, the same way I have wireless CarPlay in my XH. Install it yourself

Sprintey · 21-12-2023, 02:04 PM

Current diesel owners, do you mean? Probably true and several thousand cheaper... maybe! For us Barra fans, getting another Barra means much easier servicing and they are quite bulletproof.

The last petrols look good value in the current car market, sub 100,000km you'll get a lot of motoring out of them. Maybe have to re do the rear bushes at 170,000 (use rubber again! don't do what I did with nolathane!), tyres every 70-80,000 km and the ZF fluid similarly if you want long term life out of it.

Question: SZII RWD petrol got a lighter duty version of the 6 speed (made in PRC? I think). Is this gearbox any worse/better for durability than the ZF in SZ1 RWD petrol?

roKWiz · 21-12-2023, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

I disagree on the diesel front, a Barra 195 Territory which drinks 91 will cost the same in fuel. But apart from that you’re spot on, with the added benefit of lower servicing costs and much more DIY friendly maintenance.

Not to mention, you can get modern tech in a Territory, the same way I have wireless CarPlay in my XH. Install it yourself

Every one I knew with petrol Terri's sold them off due to heavy fuel consumption.

Sprintey · 21-12-2023, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Every one I knew with petrol Terri's sold them off due to heavy fuel consumption.

Except for me

**FTE217** · 21-12-2023, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Every one I knew with petrol Terri's sold them off due to heavy fuel consumption.

amongst the rest of probs, wouldn't buy one for quids but thats me.

**DJM83** · 21-12-2023, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

What's better today? Nothing. See my other thread. You have to go Euro to get something nice these days, not one of the top 20 selling cars in Australia has more enthusiast appeal than a FG XT.

No you dont.
We have an SUV of Korean origin and its on that top 20 list, i love it, i love driving it. Purchased brand new. Does that make me not an enthusiast?
Theres also various types of enthusiast also, not everyone wants something fast in a straight line/around a corner. (Falcon is hardly a cornering pro)
Some want something that'll go off road, pack the family in to go away and various other types.
Does that make them not enthusiasts?
Something nice and enthusiast appeal are 2 different things, although you can combine the 2.

I understand what we have lost but i think to many people are hung up on it.
Buy an FG XT and be done with it if thats what you think enthusiast appeal is.

This thread sadly is a moan about what we've lost/Govco sides and where you sit. Instead of maybe a celebration of the oppositions cars!
I never purchased a new falcon/FPV, i wished i did but thats life.
Enjoy ya aussie made cars for what they are.

roKWiz · 21-12-2023, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

No you dont.
We have an SUV of Korean origin and its on that top 20 list, i love it, i love driving it. Purchased brand new. Does that make me not an enthusiast?
Theres also various types of enthusiast also, not everyone wants something fast in a straight line/around a corner. (Falcon is hardly a cornering pro)
Some want something that'll go off road, pack the family in to go away and various other types.
Does that make them not enthusiasts?
Something nice and enthusiast appeal are 2 different things, although you can combine the 2.

I understand what we have lost but i think to many people are hung up on it.
Buy an FG XT and be done with it if thats what you think enthusiast appeal is.

This thread sadly is a moan about what we've lost/Govco sides and where you sit. Instead of maybe a celebration of the oppositions cars!
I never purchased a new falcon/FPV, i wished i did but thats life.
Enjoy ya aussie made cars for what they are.

and there I was thinking this thread was about Holden.

**FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0** · 21-12-2023, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Current diesel owners, do you mean? Probably true and several thousand cheaper... maybe! For us Barra fans, getting another Barra means much easier servicing and they are quite bulletproof.

The last petrols look good value in the current car market, sub 100,000km you'll get a lot of motoring out of them. Maybe have to re do the rear bushes at 170,000 (use rubber again! don't do what I did with nolathane!), tyres every 70-80,000 km and the ZF fluid similarly if you want long term life out of it.

Question: SZII RWD petrol got a lighter duty version of the 6 speed (made in PRC? I think). Is this gearbox any worse/better for durability than the ZF in SZ1 RWD petrol?

From what I understand, the SY AWD and petrol versions of the SZ Tez and BF, FG, FG X turbocharged inline-six and V8 Falcons all had the 6HP 26.

The petrol versions of the SZII and FG2 and FG X turbocharged inline-four, naturally-aspirated inline-six Falcons got the 6HP 21, which was produced in the PRC.

The diesel SZ and SZIIs got Ford's in-house built ZF, under licence, designated as the 6R80.

As for durability, I don't have any details on that.

**DJM83** · 21-12-2023, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roKWiz

and there I was thinking this thread was about Holden.

Yeah look, i probably didnt help the cause. But i also posted earlier on about what i thought the thread might have been about and shot down as aussie made cars (both sides) and govco go hand in hand, rather than enjoy some of the good and not so good cars they made.

**FTE217** · 21-12-2023, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

Yeah look, i probably didnt help the cause. But i also posted earlier on about what i thought the thread might have been about and shot down as aussie made cars (both sides) and govco go hand in hand, rather than enjoy some of the good and not so good cars they made.

don't worry its still a good read despite it going off track here and there.
I find it interesting and everyone has their own take about things be it with the politics - type of cars for it all relates due to the circumstances.
Comparing the offerings to now is apples and pears to me but thats fine.
I actually don't get people buying old/er vehicles when the the things today go ok, maybe not as robust or fast or whatever some see it as but I loike moving forward whereas some think its backwards, go figure that one out lol.....

On topic, the holden crowd did have some models I yearned for and wish my Ford dna wasn't so tribal over all those years.
I yearned for a HQ Monaro be it 4 or 2door.
Lusted for a A9X Torana first and foremost.
Some Premiers.
Brock commi's or Directors.
Roll onto Clubsports for they had so much more offering what FPV offered really peeved me off.
So vale Holden - we wouldn't had some great Falcons without you thats for sure !
Especially on the race track !
Feck this late model farce incl prior, the good ol days killed this commercial BS series of the last 15odd years barring the few exceptions.
Just came back to me why I disliked them so so much, they did a far better job supporting the national network and more so their race teams :(

Sprintey · 21-12-2023, 03:06 PM

Back on topic, I'd be interested in hearing from some of those a bit older than me - what was it like when the VB and XD were released?

Looking back, this was when Holden and Ford chose the most different paths. Which was better? Was the Holden's modern Euro take, the way to go back then? Was it's handling really that much better, and needed?

What were they like to drive? Was the XD half baked in comparison? Did Ford one-up Holden as the sales charts suggest?

My Mrs and I were little kids on those huge XD-E-F back seats. Our families had been Holden up until the HZ. We've ended up owning both Holdens and Fords, but mostly Fords.

Sprintey · 21-12-2023, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

Yeah look, i probably didnt help the cause. But i also posted earlier on about what i thought the thread might have been about and shot down as aussie made cars (both sides) and govco go hand in hand, rather than enjoy some of the good and not so good cars they made.

The title of the thread necessarily invites politics as it's to do with the announcement of cessation, and that was brought on bu cumulative political decisions. For better or worse.

And we have lost something unique, there's nothing like it being made any more anywhere on earth. Although I6's are making a comeback which is nice.