RWD all-Australian Falcon future hanging in the balance

[Scott]

Someones been lurking I think

[vztrt]

McAlary explained that the research to be carried out will target current private Falcon owners and fleet Falcon owners for their thoughts on the car's future direction. Ford is, according to McAlary, very sensitive to the emotional investment that goes along with a private buyer's decision to purchase the Falcon, so the research is of paramount importance to Ford as a guide to what large-car buyers will want next decade.

I wonder what the sample size will be.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by GTP006

Someones been lurking I think

The plot thickens!

[Nikked]

The falcon is worked in with a 6-8 year run before the next major update. the FG was released last year.

That gives an us till 2014-2016 untill it will be replaced. I'ld say there would be at least a year or two before any final decision is made to the falcons future. The GFC is distorting everything now, but its the future that is looked to. There is no hard facts to say RWD is dead.

[mik]

be optimistic by decision time the economy will be booming and the Falcon will stay in its current form(rwd) :

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by mik

be optimistic by decision time the economy will be booming and the Falcon will stay in its current form(rwd) :

I'd go with that......for now.


Steve

[SSVPom]

Having recently chatted to someone from Ford, the indications were that it is nearly all systems 'go' for locallising and refining the FWD and AWD 'Taurus' platform for Oz... a tough decision maybe, but a no brainer given sales figures, declining large car market share and Ford's need to globalise and cut costs as a group.

[SSVPom]

Originally Posted by Maggot

What killed mitsi was the 380.. which was a fwd american car with different sheet metal.. now that is scary!

....you forgot to mention the '5 years out of date' sheetmetal !! That car looked 'late '90s' when it was launched unfortunately.

My father in law leased a new 2007 $45k 380 GTL literally months before they announced the shut down.... I think it's worth all of $20k now

[whynot]

After coming from the AWD Territory, I am now rather ambivalent about any two-wheel drive vehicles; be that FWD or RWD. I think in my 30 months of ownership, the AWD Territory only broke traction twice in the wet. In my G6E, the rear wheels spin in the wet with even the slightest amount of provocation. It is both an annoyance and a safety issue.

The current Falcon platform does have packaging issues. If there is a new RWD platform shared with the Mustang; that is OK. If it is the Taurus, and there is a AWD box to tick; that is OK as well.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by madmelon

...about the most optimistic article about Falcon I've read in a long while, even if it is only to sink the boot into goauto. Seems they have even discussed points approached in this very thread.

http://carpoint.com.au/news/2009/lar...o-be-set-14848

Yes, a good read. It raises a question mark over GoAuto's interpretations of things said by Ford.

Originally Posted by Carpoint

"What's actually happened with that is that came out of the Detroit motor show," says McAlary. "What Derrick said is that project (GRWD) has been postponed. At a time when the company's having to concentrate on top priorities, that is not on the list of top priorities at the moment -- so that project is on hold." (NOT DEAD)

The project may be on hold, but the Mustang still needs a rear-wheel drive platform if it's to continue... and tell us again, from whence came the platform for the original Mustang of 1964?

As above, whoever says it's dead is not making any sense at all. There will always be a RWD at Ford. Period. And they (Ford HQ) know which region specialises in rear wheel drives. It's as simple as that.

They will commemorate Mustang's fiftieth anniversary with a family reunion.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by whynot

After coming from the AWD Territory, I am now rather ambivalent about any two-wheel drive vehicles; be that FWD or RWD. I think in my 30 months of ownership, the AWD Territory only broke traction twice in the wet. In my G6E, the rear wheels spin in the wet with even the slightest amount of provocation. It is both an annoyance and a safety issue.

The current Falcon platform does have packaging issues. If there is a new RWD platform shared with the Mustang; that is OK. If it is the Taurus, and there is a AWD box to tick; that is OK as well.

Using the Taurus platform would mean it would have to use a V6 for FWD, there would be no V8, no manual gearbox because Taurus doesn't have one, no utes or wagons because it would need the whole rear of the platform re engineered to carry a load, and going to AWD basically means any fuel economy advantage by going FWD is immediately lost.

I really can't see how FoA could make the Taurus or Mondeo into a Falcon. It would seemingly cost more to engineer a Taurus platform for Falcon than it would to just continue with an updated FG platform.

So many questions that need answering.

The all new Falcon was supposed to happen in 2013, that's also when Holden will be putting a new body on the Zeta platform. I'd say there's a good chance the new Falcon will be pushed back until the lower sales volumes of FG can cover the cost to develop it.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

There are ways around the CAFE regulations though and it doesn't sit well with me if they use CAFE as the only reason to kill a high performance line.

Firstly CAFE is not compulsory, it will attract a civil penalty if they don't comply. For example, I crunched some numbers on FPV volumes and probable penalties on their future drivetrain (my madeup but hopefully close the mark numbers), the extra cost could be easily built into the retail price. I'm sure the customer would be happy to take it on to be able to buy and drive the performance car that they really want. Alternatively, i'm sure some sneaky accounting will take care of Ford civil penalties anyway.

Secondly, they can gain CAFE credits by exceeding CAFE regulations... one would think this will be highly probable when the ecoboost engines are powering many of Fords new small cars which would be of high volume globally.

Remember, CAFE is the Corporate Average, and i'm predicting the small, fuel efficient cars to be selling much higher volumes than the performance models that may not conform to future CAFE regulations.

So I remain optimistic.

What does CAFE have to do with FoA though. Since it a US Government initiative doesn't it only apply to vehicles sold across the range in the US. I can't see how foreign made vehicles have any relevance to it. Its like the current regulations only apply to US sold vehicles.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

What does CAFE have to do with FoA though. Since it a US Government initiative doesn't it only apply to vehicles sold across the range in the US. I can't see how foreign made vehicles have any relevance to it. Its like the current regulations only apply to US sold vehicles.

I think what he's getting at is that for a new RWD platform for the Falcon to fly, it's going to need to be funded by and used in the US too, which means the platform will need to fit in with CAFE for Dearborn to splash the cash on it in the first place.

Back on topic slightly, it seems as though GoAuto may have been trying to whip up a controversy on a slow news day. Surprising really: I always considered them to be a fairly reputable source of media for all things auto industry in Australia. Equally surprising is the speed in which FoA jumped on what they had said.

And bugger me if I can't remember it, but I'm almost positive it was GoAuto that said at the beginning of the year that a FWD Falcon has been considered and subsequently canned as unworkable.

[Chilliman]

Does anybody know what is happening with the Panther cars (Crown Victoria, Mercury Gand Marquis and Lincoln Towncar)? I keep hearing on the rumour mill that they are having a stay of execution and may live on beyond 2012 - that may hold a few clues as to the future of Ford's RWD program and with it Falcon?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

Does anybody know what is happening with the Panther cars (Crown Victoria, Mercury Gand Marquis and Lincoln Towncar)? I keep hearing on the rumour mill that they are having a stay of execution and may live on beyond 2012 - that may hold a few clues as to the future of Ford's RWD program and with it Falcon?

The idea used to be, that the Global Rear Wheel Drive program (GRWD) would be developed jointly between Australia and Detroit (mainly Australia at first, and then when the Aussie dollar reached near parity with the USD, Detroit moved it all over to their end) and this would provide a platform to replace ALL of the RWD large cars in the Ford world. Falcon, Mustang, Panther. A good idea to consolidate all the same type (but different) platforms under one, especially for cost and all, would'nt you agree?

Enter the global financial crisis, and the slump in new vehicle sales. Together with skyrocketing petrol prices in 2007-08 this all caused Ford to put the GRWD on hold to concentrate on more important things like corporate restructuring, eliminating debt, and getting small cars to market in the US.

If you go by what has been said in the articles quoted above, the GRWD has been suspended, not cancelled. This means that there is a development (and henceforth expenditure) freeze on the project. It may also mean that Ford still sees a place for the GRWD program. However a decision on GRWD will need to be made within the next 18 months to 2 years because of the Falcon's 6 year life cycle and the fact that the Panther is due to be phased out in 2011 0r 2012 as I recall.

Even still, GRWD cars will just be niche cars, not volume sellers.

[Watto_Cobra]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

They will commemorate Mustang's fiftieth anniversary with a family reunion.

Now THAT is what I want to see. Mustang based on FG platform. :sm_drool:

[cosmo20btt]

what is the market share of Aurion? Because that will be where falcon will be behind if if it goes FWD.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I really can't see how FoA could make the Taurus or Mondeo into a Falcon. It would seemingly cost more to engineer a Taurus platform for Falcon than it would to just continue with an updated FG platform.

I always imagined Falcon will be scrapped altogether and we will start making Mondeo's in Oz, and they will be badged as Mondeo, i.e NO MORE FALCON!!!!

I really do hope that Falcon lives on even though I am not in the market for one at the moment nor in the near future. My Territory is the best car for my needs right now, but it's nice to think that in ten to twelve years, there could still be a Falcon available to purchase.

[Watto_Cobra]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

what is the market share of Aurion? Because that will be where falcon will be behind if if it goes FWD.

Aurion
Nov 08 - 1481
Dec 08 - 1740
Jan 09 - 665
Feb 09 - 968
Mar 09 - 1088

If Falcon goes FWD and ends up behind Aurion then it's bye bye :jab:

[Windsor220]

I reckon Falcon will either stay RWD or go altogether.

There wouldnt be any point of FWD with Mondeo around. There wouldnt be any ute, wagon and FPV either.

So in conclusion, that article is a load of crab.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Using the Taurus platform would mean it would have to use a V6 for FWD, there would be no V8, no manual gearbox because Taurus doesn't have one, no utes or wagons because it would need the whole rear of the platform re engineered to carry a load, and going to AWD basically means any fuel economy advantage by going FWD is immediately lost.

I could not agree more.

The question is; does the sales volume justify the Ute and the V8. Ford Europe is doing OK and they don’t have a Ute or a V8 in either line up.
I could easily see the Ute being replaced with the Ford Ranger. For example, Toyota don’t have a Ute but are doing OK with their next best thing, the Hilux. As for the V8 ... I appreciate that in this forum I am probably a heretic ... but give me the G6E Turbo over the V8 any day.

One conceivable scenario is the Falcon FWD for the fleet and the AWD for the drivers.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by whynot

I could not agree more.

The question is; does the sales volume justify the Ute and the V8. Ford Europe is doing OK and they don’t have a Ute or a V8 in either line up.
I could easily see the Ute being replaced with the Ford Ranger. For example, Toyota don’t have a Ute but are doing OK with their next best thing, the Hilux. As for the V8 ... I appreciate that in this forum I am probably a heretic ... but give me the G6E Turbo over the V8 any day.

One conceivable scenario is the Falcon FWD for the fleet and the AWD for the drivers.

Urrgghh, are you implying a two door Camry with a tray on the back would be better than a Hilux? :-)
As for a RWD V8 sedan... I wonder if the Taurus SHO w/ EcoBoost and AWD would make people forget about a RWD V8... just a thought, I would be interested to take one for a spin just to satisfy my curiosity.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by whynot

....
I could easily see the Ute being replaced with the Ford Ranger.

It certainly wouldn't be too far fetched....because lets not forget Ford Australia is designing the next new Ranger.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by EDManual

my old man (63 years old) is signing for a brand new black xr6 turbo in the next few days... people still buy them new. Its true, just not many I guess. Although I must admit I would buy 2nd hand, and thats only cos i havent the money.

Will be curious to know what he thinks of the (almost illegible) markings on Tacho and Speedo.

Without the digital speedo I would not have bought the FG XR6T as I cannot clearly see the increments.

My eyes are OK - I pass ther race drivers licence eye test regularly.

The increments are just hopeless and its just a simple fix.

The drink holders are much too small and the steering wheel needs to dip more so you can see the top of the tacho/speedo

Other than that I love my FG. 10,000ks faultless motoring but it is much more than that. It feels German. And goes like stink. For a very reasonable price.

My wife LOVES it too. Regularly talks about selling the BMW.

Will buy another FG later this year to replace my Nitro.

Hopefully a G6ET ute if they wake up.

BTW Aussie RWD are great!!!

[whynot]

Speaking of Mustangs ...

New York Times have just posted a review of the 2010 Mustang.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/au...ustang.html?hp

...

The GT’s engine is essentially the 315-horsepower Bullitt version of the 4.6-liter V-8, which has made the list of Ward’s Best 10 Engines in recent years. And it runs on regular unleaded fuel.

...

Ford’s upcoming twin-turbo EcoBoost V-6, capable of 340-horsepower (and potentially delivering further improvements in fuel economy), could be an option in later model years.


...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Urrgghh, are you implying a two door Camry with a tray on the back would be better than a Hilux? :-)
As for a RWD V8 sedan... I wonder if the Taurus SHO w/ EcoBoost and AWD would make people forget about a RWD V8... just a thought, I would be interested to take one for a spin just to satisfy my curiosity.

Problem is it only makes about 270 kw, and something like high 400 nm?, and there's no manual gearbox. An FG XR6 Turbo would eat it, except for economy, let alone the mauling an F6 would give it.

Ford need to move forward, not backwards.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Problem is it only makes about 270 kw, and something like high 400 nm?, and there's no manual gearbox. An FG XR6 Turbo would eat it, except for economy, let alone the mauling an F6 would give it.

Ford need to move forward, not backwards.

Don't forget the 3.5 EcoBoost in the Taurus brings it's 470Nm (not 400Nm) of torque from 1800 rpm and holds it completely flat to 5500 rpm. What that says is, it has been restricted in it's output, probably the hardware in the Taurus needs a torque limitation on the engine - because it can't handle 550-600Nm?) The word is the F150 will get the same engine with more power and torque - which a tougher drivetrain will handle. The EcoBoost also uses regular unleaded, not premium. It also gets the same economy as the base 3.5 V6. The 4.0T needs premium, uses more fuel than the base 4.0, has turbo lag, it is not under the same electronic limitations the EcoBoost motor is, the turbo only boosts torque from midrange rpm and higher. I believe Ford is moving forward (finally). So I honestly don't think the FPV 4.0T would eat it or maul it.

http://jalopnik.com/5151498/2010-for...s-torque-curve

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Don't forget the 3.5 EcoBoost in the Taurus brings it's 470Nm (not 400Nm) of torque from 1800 rpm and holds it completely flat to 5500 rpm. What that says is, it has been restricted in it's output, probably the hardware in the Taurus needs a torque limitation on the engine - because it can't handle 550-600Nm?) The word is the F150 will get the same engine with more power and torque - which a tougher drivetrain will handle. The EcoBoost also uses regular unleaded, not premium. It also gets the same economy as the base 3.5 V6. The 4.0T needs premium, uses more fuel than the base 4.0, has turbo lag, it is not under the same electronic limitations the EcoBoost motor is, the turbo only boosts torque from midrange rpm and higher. I believe Ford is moving forward (finally). So I honestly don't think the FPV 4.0T would eat it or maul it.

http://jalopnik.com/5151498/2010-for...s-torque-curve

Um, have a look at ford.com.au. The XR6T holds near the same torque from 1750 to over 5 grand and punches out 270kw to boot. Again on unleaded no premium.
The F6 would undoubtedly and embarsssingly decimate the damn thing. The F6 cracks 12s from factory!

All done in a car that's heaviers uses slightly more fuel (who cares I aim to use all the petrol those 4 bangers are saving) and has the correct drive train configuration, a diff!!!!

[irlewy86]

If they axe Falcon they are still going to have a orphaned (Mustang) platform aren't they. So isn't it counter productive to axe the Falcon rather than roll all the current RWD into one platform.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Don't forget the 3.5 EcoBoost in the Taurus brings it's 470Nm (not 400Nm) of torque from 1800 rpm and holds it completely flat to 5500 rpm. What that says is, it has been restricted in it's output, probably the hardware in the Taurus needs a torque limitation on the engine - because it can't handle 550-600Nm?)

The flat torque curves in new cars mainly come from the ability to vary the cam (both inlet and exhaust) timing to achieve a more optimum fuel burn at all points in the rev range. it also enables large turbos to spool up a lot earlier and coupled with direct injection makes engines malleable to the point where we're now fairly close to the limit of efficiency we can achieve from a " conventional " internal combustion engine with the materials and fuels that are able to be used economically. both the I6 and the ecoboost share turbos, injection and variable cam timing and both share similar outputs from similar displacements. The argument between is actually between FWD-AWD(east west engine) vs RWD-AWD (north south engine). there are too many variables involved and so to argue one against the other is nearly pointless unless......you have two cars side by side and YOU drive them both. Untill then - never say never!!