Let's discuss diesel...

[Tassie f100]

If thats what needed to get pushbikes off roads,best bring it on!!

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by lovford

Who's HULK, does hulk turn green because of diesel contamination.

Yep, enough said...............
Obviously been given the a rse from another forum. Now we have to put up with your tripe.............

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Maybe you should keep away from roads with your bicycle.Roads are for powered vehicles not pushbikes.Roads are paid for by people paying taxes on the fuel they buy.If you want to ride a bike,get all your fellow pedal pushers to build your own roads and keep off the roads owned by people who pay for them.

I guess electric cars have no right to use the roads either then, given they don't use fuel.

[DRU842]

Is this the guts of the argument? https://www.newscientist.com/article...-than-thought/

Never hurts to lay out a baseline.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by prydey

I guess electric cars have no right to use the roads either then, given they don't use fuel.

At least they pay for rego and coal to run the generators that power their battery chargers....

[burnz]

Originally Posted by lovford

Co2 is much less harmful to the inhabitants because it rises into the atmosphere and causes globle warming, bad or good, this is for another discussion. But filthy diesel remains at ground level for baby and every other human to injest every time they walk out the safety of there own home. I thimk its time to see facial masks used to protect against these incidious cancer causing and many other respitary ilineses that are bought on wholly buy diesel ingestatin. Terrible legacy that pollies and big oil have sweeped under the rug and will cost them 500 billion in the next 15 years

and what do we do with this filthy diesel (by-product) oil that you don't want anybody to use??

Originally Posted by yearby

What particle emissions are emitted from a petrol engines?

Doesn't make sense unless I have missed something?????????????

direct injection petrol is the same as diesel,, they emit soot..
and higher oxides of nitrogen.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

At least they pay for rego and coal to run the generators that power their battery chargers....

Ah, another typical car driver trotting out the same old rubbish.

'Get orf my road' is the car driver mantra.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by prydey

Ah, another typical car driver trotting out the same old rubbish.

'Get orf my road' is the car driver mantra.

I was more taking a shot at getting taxed for everything. Cyclists only pay gst when they buy the bike or associated parts. So maybe theyre smart and I'm lazy.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by DRU842

Is this the guts of the argument? https://www.newscientist.com/article...-than-thought/

Never hurts to lay out a baseline.

has any of these "papers" been peer reviewed, or is it paid leftists??

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by prydey

Ah, another typical car driver trotting out the same old rubbish.

'Get orf my road' is the car driver mantra.

What,s rubbish about getting pedal pushers off the road.They make zero financial contribution to the road network,yet think they have a given right to dictate to those that do pay.When you have a cyclist weave around and nearly run into your car,then abuse you for being too close,why shouldn,t they be not allowed on the road proper.

[yearby]

Originally Posted by burnz

direct injection petrol is the same as diesel,, they emit soot..
and higher oxides of nitrogen.

The only way a petrol engine can emit soot is with carbon and to do this, the engine must run very very rich. In such a case the engine must have been a very poor design.

As for oxides of nitrogen (NOx), that is caused by high temperatures and pressures, so to solve this the combustion temperature must be lowered, ie EGR for both diesel and petrol.

So from my prospective the petrol and the diesel engine still have plenty of room for improvement. I would have though traffic congestion will be the major concern in the future.

[dunga]

The answer is hydrogen only needs electricity to make and is easily stored and transferred to vehicles and yes requires electricity to make but far less labour intensive than ethanol ,

[solarite_guy]

Is there a reliable containment mechanism for hydrogen in an automotive application these days?

[dunga]

Hyundai is working on a hydrogen powered car right now its no different to any other high pressure flammable gas no doubt there is more risk with petrol the only thing stoping hydrogen more than likely is government deals done with ethanol producers and oil companies.

[roKWiz]

I remember some hydrogen government buses getting around Sydney for awhile, don't know how that went.

[solarite_guy]

Honda at one point had a program in place to produce hydrogen powered cars. A problem with hydrogen that was different than other high pressure gasses was its tendency to "leak" through containers at a certain rate over time. Have you heard any information about that?

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

What,s rubbish about getting pedal pushers off the road.They make zero financial contribution to the road network,yet think they have a given right to dictate to those that do pay.When you have a cyclist weave around and nearly run into your car,then abuse you for being too close,why shouldn,t they be not allowed on the road proper.

I kind of agree . Maybe cyclists need to be registered to use the roads and that money goes a small part toward safe cyclist training or safer bike lanes or something. I ride a bike to work sometimes as I'm only a 1.5 km away but also for the odd ride when the mood takes me. I'd be happy to register my bike for a couple of bucks a week if I knew it was going toward something worthwhile. Maybe even some sort of family rego if a few kids ride too on the roads. Why not !!!!!!.

Even electric cars pay rego don't they , why not a small fee for bikes. At the very least the bikes with a helper motor fitted or retro fitted should pay something. Then they can complain about diesel fumes , lack of lanes or too many potholes with more conviction and equity.

[dunga]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I remember some hydrogen government buses getting around Sydney for awhile, don't know how that went.

I don't live in Sydney but do they run on compressed natural gas maybe they did do hydrogen conversions someone might know .

[Ross 1]

Problem solved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgWHbpMVQ1U

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

Maybe cyclists need to be registered to use the roads and that money goes toward safe cyclist training or safer bike lanes or something. I ride a bike to work sometimes as I'm only a 1.5 km away but also for the odd ride when the mood takes me. I'd be happy to register my bike for a couple of bucks a week if I knew it was going toward something worthwhile. Maybe even some sort of family rego if a few kids ride too on the roads. Why not !!!!!!.

Even electric cars pay rego don't they , why not a small fee for bikes. At the very least the bikes with a helper motor fitted or retro fitted should pay something. Then they can complain about diesel fumes with more conviction.

I've been quiet on the bicycle comments but rego for bicycles will never happen as its to hard to administer and would open up more problems, It would be like asking pedestrians to have rego because they require infrastructure (walkways, bridges, pedestrian crossing etc) my biggest truck cost $4500 per year to register without a trailer and I also own 6 bicycles.
You will find most adult cyclist own at least one car or more per household and choose to leave their cars at home freeing up roadspace for motorist who rely on driving to work or drive for a living.
Rego wise, I could argue cars don't contribute much to keeping commerce running and clog up the roads for real commercial traffic which deliver our goods.

Car owners rego get a lot of benefits for the amount of money paid yearly compared to the hundreds of thousands of mile of road infrastructure here in Oz.

[dunga]

very funny ross 1 but back to reality if the Hindenburg was full of petrol gas the same result the only difference is hydrogen is lighter than air.

[yearby]

Only problem with the Hindenburg disaster is why all the black smoke, hydrogen don't burn like that. If it was only hydrogen burning all you would get would be H2O (water) not black soot, that means some type of Hydro-carbon is burning??????????????

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by yearby

Only problem with the Hindenburg disaster is why all the black smoke, hydrogen don't burn like that. If it was only hydrogen burning all you would get would be H2O (water) not black soot, that means some type of Hydro-carbon is burning??????????????

No real mystery there, no doubt a lot of hydrocarbons used in the construction going up in flames, i believe the gas cells where made out of a type of latex for one

[au350hp]

Originally Posted by lovford

It was published in an national news paper 3 months ago. Diesal drivers keep driving with rose coloured glasses, your killing your self your family and innocent bystanders, like me when I get past by you stinky fkrs on my 10 km ride.

I understand your frustration but I think you'll find most of us 'stinky fckers' as you so eloquently put it, prefer petrol, preferably with a high octane rating.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I've been quiet on the bicycle comments but rego for bicycles will never happen as its to hard to administer and would open up more problems..............,

Why not they used to be. In my bicycle days they all had to be registered.

When you got a bike you went to the cop station, filled out a rego type form and you were handed a bicycle licence plate about 150x50mm to be attached. They were alpha/numerical just like a mini car plate.

You would get pulled over if your bike didn't have one and given a warning to go get one.

I can't recall what happened for it to have ceased or when that was but maybe because in the later days it was decided bicycle riders weren't a danger to anyone .

[arronm]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

No real mystery there, no doubt a lot of hydrocarbons used in the construction going up in flames, i believe the gas cells where made out of a type of latex for one

Um. Diesel fuel for the engines.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by arronm

Um. Diesel fuel for the engines.

um. That an much more!

[solarite_guy]

Originally Posted by yearby

The only way a petrol engine can emit soot is with carbon and to do this, the engine must run very very rich. In such a case the engine must have been a very poor design.

As for oxides of nitrogen (NOx), that is caused by high temperatures and pressures, so to solve this the combustion temperature must be lowered, ie EGR for both diesel and petrol.

So from my prospective the petrol and the diesel engine still have plenty of room for improvement. I would have though traffic congestion will be the major concern in the future.

Speaking of the soot:

Peter, as usual, when it comes to the scientific method, you are on the right track.

In this case it is a form of localized over rich situations/areas within the combustion environment that results in soot by-products.

This article speak about it some:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01679X15000432

Scroll down to 1.0 Introduction

"1. Introduction

Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) engines are considered an important source of carbonaceous nanoparticles; they produce higher levels of soot as the process of fuel vaporisation and gas-phase mixing remains essentially incomplete [1], even when early fuel injections are used to enable a homogeneous combustion mode [2,3]. This leads to the establishment of sub-stoichiometric mixture-pockets, which are thought to be a significant source of soot formation. Other important mechanisms leading to soot formation have been identified in recent years; primarily, the presence of liquid fuel film over cylinder/piston walls and consequent pool-fire [4,5], as well as the process of direct carbonisation of remaining liquid droplets [6]. The phenomenon of soot formation can be essentially described in terms of three steps: nucleation, growth and oxidation [7]. The process occurs under fuel-rich conditions, in both rich premixed and non-premixed flames, where the local equivalent ratio is more than one. The nucleation process takes place under high temperature conditions, between 1000 and 2800 K, with unburned hydrocarbons, in particular acetylene and polycyclic aromatics hydrocarbons (PAH), being pyrolysed and oxidised. The condensation reactions of these gas-phase species lead to the appearance of a large number of primary soot particles with diameter lower than 2 nm and insignificant soot loading. Surface growth, coagulation and aggregation represent the particles growth. During the surface growth, concentric shells on nuclei and spherules are formed by deposition of hydrocarbon intermediate gas-phase species on particles surface. By means of coagulation the particles collide and merge reducing their number concentration, but keeping the total amount of soot constant. After formation, the collision between particles leads to cluster or chain-like soot aggregates (secondary particles) in which the number of particles decreases with a consequent size increase (PM diameter 100–900 nm). In the overall soot formations process, the precursors, the nuclei and particles can be oxidised if in contact with oxidising species such as O2, O, OH, CO2, and H2O at the right conditions. Typically, HRTEM shows the primary particles having an outer shell composed of planar shaped crystallites orientated perpendicular to the radius of the particle. The crystallites are comprised of several PAH layers. An inner core, which is constituted by several fine spherules (3–4 nm in diameter) having a nucleus of 1 nm at the central portion, usually characterises primary particles.

The particle number concentration emitted by GDI engines are generally higher than conventional PFI engines and Diesel engines equipped with Particulate Filter (DPF). Most of the soot produced is expelled from the cylinder with the exhaust gases but a small proportion is transferred from the cylinder to the lubricating oil. Soot is likely to migrate into the oil film early during the expansion stroke [8]; consequently, the morphology, agglomeration and other characteristics of soot-in-oil are likely to be rather different to exhaust soot. Soot-in-oil has not been subject to oxidation processes to the same extent and hence the outer shell structure is more likely to remain intact. Although only a small proportion of the soot formed in the combustion chamber transfers to the engine oil, it contributes to the lubricant degradation. This is certainly a new challenge for the modern GDI engine as soot-in-oil raises concerns upon wear and engine durability. It is well established that oil thickening has a complex dependence on soot [9]. Various investigators [10,11] have shown that diesel soot build up in oil gives rise to increased engine wear rates; Gautam et al. [12] reported that wear increases with higher soot concentration. Soot reduces the effectiveness of anti-wear additives and its effect on wear depends upon the characteristics of the particles and agglomerates of soot. Abrasive wear occurs and wear scar width closely matches the primary particle size [10]. Oil thickening was found to enhance timing chain elongation due to abrasive action of soot on pins and bushing [13]. Bardasz et al. [14] studied the influence of high number of engine cycles on lubricant oil and that of oil characteristics on engine wear, comparing direct injection and port fuel injection engines and finding increased wear for the first category. There is also a growing interest within the automotive industry to better understand the complex interactions between soot morphology and properties of lubricating oil."

This is somewhat similar to a race engine we were enhancing that suffered from a new "trick" the cylinder head guy was experimenting with. Though "wet flow" tested, it caused fuel to drop out of the incoming air stream resulting in both localized overly lean and overly rich areas within the combustion mixture. The lean areas were the symptom giving us the greatest concern by causing pockets of detonation limiting our CR 2 full points lower than we needed. However, it was the rich areas that were easily identified (back of the intake valves wet), that tiped us off to the problem. We decided to remove the "trick" ourselves. Some quick pulls on the dyno showed no more fuel puddling on the backs of the valves. We put the proper pistons in and had a healthy hp gain.

So, it is very possible for localized rich conditions to occur.

[yearby]

Well their your go, something new for me. Too much reading all at once for me, will try again later.

[XRtowcar]

A timely article in Time magazine about diesel.

Thousands of people die prematurely each year in Germany from the harmful effects of nitrogen dioxide, a gas that’s produced by diesel engines, according to a government-sponsored report published Thursday.

The study commissioned by the Federal Office for the Environment concluded that almost 6,000 people died prematurely in 2014 from illnesses that are known to be caused or aggravated by nitrogen dioxide, or NO2.