Explorer cruise control jams open in Victoria

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by Whitey Ford

....You should have read more about this particular case....

Did you !? Toyota may be hiding something about this >

REPORT: Toyota execs deny cover-up after feds rebuke automaker over runaway car investigation >
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/06/r...e-automaker-o/

Consumer Reports: Over 40 percent of 'sudden acceleration' claims involve Toyota >
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/08/c...npage_autoblog

Class action suit filed against Toyota over sudden acceleration claims >
"According to the suit, Toyota has known about reports of unintended acceleration for years and has received over 2,000 such complaints. Citing statistics from Safety Research & Strategies, Inc., the lawsuit alleges that there have been 16 fatalities and 243 injuries from Toyota and Lexus crashes attributed to runaway vehicles. Toyota attributes these accidents to improperly installed or incorrect floormats that prevent the accelerator pedal from returning to its idle position.

Wright, though, said in a statement, "[N]either driver error nor floormats can explain away many other frightening instances of runaway Toyotas. Until the company acknowledges the real problem and fixes it, we worry that other preventable injuries and deaths will occur." Hit the jump for the official press release from McCuneWright."
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/09/c...-acceleration/

Dodgy floor mats my **** !!

How to stop a runaway car >
" Testing theory at the track
We decided to find out just how quickly you could lose power brakes with a stuck throttle. Using our test track and several test vehicles, we accelerated to 60 mph and hit the brakes with the accelerator still floored. Once the brakes were applied, the vehicles began fighting us. The transmissions downshifted trying to maintain speed.

Instead of holding the brakes, we tried pumping them. This test confirmed that pumping the brakes is a really bad strategy. Power brakes rely on engine vacuum to provide additional brake pressure. At full throttle, the engine doesn’t generate any vacuum. So as soon as we removed and reapplied pressure to the brake pedal, the power assist disappeared and stopping the car became hopeless. “There was no way I could push hard enough on the brakes to slow the car down when the engine was fighting me,” said Sr. Automotive Engineer Jake Fisher."
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...he-brakes.html

[4Vman]

Out of curiosity how did he eventually stop the car after his 40 min 100kph "chase"..??????

[Whitey Ford]

Originally Posted by Pinch

The media articles state that all the mentioned options were suggested by the Police, and tried by the guy to no avail. Technically it was possible that the Explorer had built in mechanisms to prevent engine damage in non-emergency situations.

The driver claims that the brakes didn't work, yet later they did. Clearly they didn't magically start working, he was in such a panicked state that he couldn't engage them correctly. It has to be user error otherwise it would have ended differently.

They actually have the emergency call for the Lexus driver, a police officer trained to deal with high stress situations, who shows complete and utter lack of logic because he's so panicked. The 911 operator asked him something along the lines of "have you tried to switch it off" and he doesn't even acknowledge the question.

Lastrella: "We're going 120. Mission Gorge. We're in trouble. We can't … there is no brakes. End freeway half mile."
911 dispatcher: "You can't do anything like turn off your engine?"
Lastrella: "We're approaching the intersection. We're approaching the intersection. We're approaching the intersection."

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Out of curiosity how did he eventually stop the car after his 40 min 100kph "chase"..??????

The driver applied the brakes

I'm being serious.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by Whitey Ford

.... it was entirely his own fault that he killed his family......

>> B U L L S H I T <<


"...The NHTSA had also learned from a previous ES350 investigation that, "the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold." That's not good. And the brakes had signs of heavy wear and damage, "Rotors were discolored and heated, had very rough surfaces, had substantial deposits of brake pad material, and showed signs of bright orange oxidation on the cooling fins consistent with endured braking.
Additionally, because the Lexus has push button start, the operator must push the button for three seconds before the engine will shut off. A piece of info obviously and sadly not known by Officer Saylor."

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Whitey Ford

The driver claims that the brakes didn't work, yet later they did. Clearly they didn't magically start working, he was in such a panicked state that he couldn't engage them correctly. It has to be user error otherwise it would have ended differently.

Heavy riding of the brakes at sustained high speeds can cause overheating and very sever cases of brake fade, making them useless.

Brakes run on vacuum pressure, under full throttle applying the brakes can cause them to not work at all as this lose vaccum pressure, especially if you start pumping them to get them to bite, again making them useless.

I would hazzard a guess, that after letting the brakes cool or not applying them for a while that vacuum pressure returned or brakes cooled enough for them to be effective enough with the use of a handbrake.

[Whitey Ford]

Originally Posted by Chopped

B U L L S H I T

Here are the facts;
Off duty California Highway Patrol Officer behind the wheel of a rental Lexus. He floored the accelerator on a freeway (speeding) and the accelerator pedal got stuck under the floor mat. He then panicked and called 911.

He did not familiarise himself with the vehicle.
He did not switch off the ignition
He did not engage neutral
He did not pull the floormat back with his hand
He did not pull the accelerator pedal off the floor mat even though he told the 911 emergency responder that the accelerator was stuck

He constantly applied the brakes causing them to overheat and fade completely
He panicked in a situation that regular folk in this thread have managed to deal with successfully.

[BENT_8]

You guys dont recognise brake fade?
If he had tried using the brakes a number of times early on in the journey they would have faded to nothing, there is no evidence that he continued on the brake peddle, why would you if they atrent working.

Given an opportunity to cool the peddle feel would have returned and then when mashed in conjunction with the hand brake and the washed off speed of crossing the devider the car stops.

If you've ever travelled down a steep decline you'd understand brake fade and how pedal pressure soon returns after a short period.

But then again, dont let the truth get in the way of a good story hey!

[Whitey Ford]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

You guys dont recognise brake fade?

Everyone in this thread knows he experienced brake fade. That's why they magically worked again at the end.

But if he was doing 80km/h in cruise control his brakes would not be faded, they would be right on top of their game. So why didn't they work at the start of the 40 minute incident, but they worked at the end?

Same thing everyone's saying, user error, he didn't apply them with enough force in one hit, rather he softly applied them, which was not enough, which caused them to fade.

Originally Posted by Brazen

Brakes run on vacuum pressure, under full throttle applying the brakes can cause them to not work at all as this lose vaccum pressure, especially if you start pumping them to get them to bite, again making them useless.

The explorer was not at 100% throttle.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Whitey Ford

He panicked in a situation that regular folk in this thread have managed to deal with successfully.

And if you asked these same people if they've ever sped, had a drink or two before driving, done a burnout, missed a giveway sign etc. etc. they'd all say 'NO, NOT US HIGHLY EXPERIENCED FORUM ENTHUSIASTS'

Im guessing the police escort may have noticed his lack of brake lights if he truely wasnt trying to stop, surely they'd have noticed this and asked the question or is that too complicated to fathom?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Whitey Ford

Everyone in this thread knows he experienced brake fade. That's why they magically worked again at the end.

But if he was doing 80km/h in cruise control his brakes would not be faded, they would be right on top of their game. So why didn't they work at the start of the 40 minute incident, but they worked at the end?

Same thing everyone's saying, user error, he didn't apply them with enough force in one hit, rather he softly applied them, which was not enough, which caused them to fade.The explorer was not at 100% throttle.

If you took the time to click on the link you'd find he was actually set on 100, and after applying the brakes continually could only get it DOWN to 80 :

If the cruise was controlling the vehicle to stay at the said speed of 100, the cruise may have tried to accellerate the vehicle as it does on an incline when he first tried braking.
Ok so he didnt mash the peddle straight off but this could have easily ended much worse if he did, these explorers are a big heavy vehicle and could quite easily have turned sideways and rolled.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Whitey Ford

Everyone in this thread knows he experienced brake fade. That's why they magically worked again at the end.

But if he was doing 80km/h in cruise control his brakes would not be faded, they would be right on top of their game. So why didn't they work at the start of the 40 minute incident, but they worked at the end?

Same thing everyone's saying, user error, he didn't apply them with enough force in one hit, rather he softly applied them, which was not enough, which caused them to fade.The explorer was not at 100% throttle.

As I explained earlier, I dont imagine it to be human instinct to slam on the brakes on a busy highway in one hit just because the cruise was playing up. He probably would have applied the brakes to slow the car or to stop it accelerating while he worked out what was going on. Once he ran through all the possible solutions to overcome the problem, the brakes would have been toast.

I mean, come on, you would expect to be able to put the car into neutral or to turn off the ignition. I dont think it is reasonable to assume that slamming on the brakes in one hit on a busy highway is the FIRST thing you should do.

[RG]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

And if you asked these same people if they've ever sped, had a drink or two before driving, done a burnout, missed a giveway sign etc. etc. they'd all say 'NO, NOT US HIGHLY EXPERIENCED FORUM ENTHUSIASTS'

Im guessing the police escort may have noticed his lack of brake lights if he truely wasnt trying to stop, surely they'd have noticed this and asked the question or is that too complicated to fathom?

Mate don't talk rubbish, you are starting to sound a like a bit of a goose. The simple fact of the matter is that if he doesn't know how to act in an emergency then he shouldn't be on the road.

Simple as that.

btw, to all of you saying "ooohhh it was brake fade". Brake fade doesn't happen for 54km and let you stop after a while. Remember he did stop in the end!

[Whitey Ford]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

If you took the time to click on the link you'd find he was actually set on 100, and after applying the brakes continually could only get it DOWN to 80 :

I posted the link. I started the thread and if you read the post it say's 80km/h.

If it has been revised since I posted that article, then I was not aware of it.

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Im guessing the police escort may have noticed his lack of brake lights if he truely wasnt trying to stop, surely they'd have noticed this and asked the question or is that too complicated to fathom?

As I have mentioned, the driver claims he couldn't "knock" it out of gear or switch the car off.

I go back to my previous point about the Lexus driver who completely ignored the 911 dispatcher's question about switching off the ignition.

Is it too complicated for you to fathom that a panicked person would not respond to external advice, or fail to act on that advice correctly?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by RG

Mate don't talk rubbish, you are starting to sound a like a bit of a goose. The simple fact of the matter is that if he doesn't know how to act in an emergency then he shouldn't be on the road.

Simple as that.

btw, to all of you saying "ooohhh it was brake fade". Brake fade doesn't happen for 54km and let you stop after a while. Remember he did stop in the end!

Why, because a 22yo inexperienced driver who has obviously passed all required driving criterior fails to mash his brake peddle doing 100 which you know it alls would have done without hesitation

[PETE_XR6]

Originally Posted by RG

Mate don't talk rubbish, you are starting to sound a like a bit of a goose. The simple fact of the matter is that if he doesn't know how to act in an emergency then he shouldn't be on the road.

Simple as that.

btw, to all of you saying "ooohhh it was brake fade". Brake fade doesn't happen for 54km and let you stop after a while. Remember he did stop in the end!

I don't remember reading that in my learners guide ..

[RG]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Why, because a 22yo inexperienced driver who has obviously passed all required driving criterior fails to mash his brake peddle doing 100 which you know it alls would have done without hesitation

Where did I say I would do that immediately? Oh wait, I didn't. There you go jumping to another of your convenient conclusions in an attempt to strengthen what is a very weak argument at best.

Anyone who takes 54klm to figure out how to stop a car needs retraining. At 22 I think he should have known a little better.

Originally Posted by PETE_XR6

I don't remember reading that in my learners guide ..

Remember what? maybe engage your brain before driving, if all you do is go off what you read in a book then there isn't much hope for you on the road.

[greens_tuf]

Originally Posted by Whitey Ford

Here are the facts;
Off duty California Highway Patrol Officer behind the wheel of a rental Lexus. He floored the accelerator on a freeway (speeding) and the accelerator pedal got stuck under the floor mat. He then panicked and called 911.

He did not familiarise himself with the vehicle.
He did not switch off the ignition
He did not engage neutral
He did not pull the floormat back with his hand
He did not pull the accelerator pedal off the floor mat even though he told the 911 emergency responder that the accelerator was stuck

He constantly applied the brakes causing them to overheat and fade completely
He panicked in a situation that regular folk in this thread have managed to deal with successfully.

I think you've made your point...

[LANKY 1]

Another classic example why auto's are bad for you

[Whitey Ford]

Someone made a funny comment after the article, the explorer's cruise control disengages if you touch the accelerator. Now that's something you would not expect a panicked person to think of.

Another commentator who owns an explorer said that you can switch off the ignition while moving but not remove the key unless you are in Park.

But this is my favourite comment;
"I hope he never gets on an escalator , he'd be stranded if the power went off"

[RG]

Where's JC when you need him? He'll be able to let us know what can and can't be done while driving an Explorer.

OI, JC. Over here!!!!

[SLO AU XR8]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

If you took the time to click on the link you'd find he was actually set on 100, and after applying the brakes continually could only get it DOWN to 80 :

If the cruise was controlling the vehicle to stay at the said speed of 100, the cruise may have tried to accellerate the vehicle as it does on an incline when he first tried braking.
Ok so he didnt mash the peddle straight off but this could have easily ended much worse if he did, these explorers are a big heavy vehicle and could quite easily have turned sideways and rolled.

Read again, he never said anythin about speed, he said 100% THROTTLE!

[MAD]

I think you should click back a page, he actually did mention speed.

Anyway, what does throttle position have to do with it? When set on cruise and at the set speed, the throttle will only be at minimal opening to keep the car at speed, as you slow down, the throttle will open to speed you up again.
The computer would just see brake application as a big hill.

[flappist]

No benefit of the doubt here from all of the experts......

It appears that explorers have an electronic transmission so if there was a major failure of the ECU that locked it is gear, did not interpret the cruise disconnect and did not kill the engine when the key was turned off (it is not an XY) then the car may have gone silly.
As far as the brakes, it would not take a lot over overload the brakes and have them boil.

Weird things that have happened to me personally in Ford vehicles.

Total system failure (as in everything went dark) except that the engine still idled up to about 1500 rpm and I trundled home in 1st gear

EA Ghia manual about 1989.

Complete brake failure while travelling down the Gillies Hwy due to overheating and then the brakes recovered after about 15 mins.

EB Fairlane Ghia V8 (hertz rental) about 1990.

Locking system going bezerk randomly unlocking the car and also interfereing with the door handles.

EL Fairmont about 1999.

Engine stuck on 2700rpm, no faster, no slower (lots of fun in traffic). Needed to be fixed at FPV. (try slowing down a BOSS 290 even with brembos)

BA GTP August 2003.

Bezerk electrics that constantly destroyed mobile phones and anything else attached to the vehicle (was never solved even with replacement of almost all bits)

BA2 F6 May 2005-April 2008.

All of the above cars were new enough to be in original warranty.

Maybe he is fair dinkum, maybe not. He did not panic nor kill anyone so that is probably a good thing.

Lets see if there is a fault.

If not then lampoon the driver but if there is and no one does anything about it maybe the next time there will be a tragedy...

[Chopped]

Can this thread be posted to the relevant police ? It seems the case is now closed.

Another case cracked by the enlightened.

PS don't google "cruise control sticking" because who cares if the car fails you, it is obviously your fault for not correcting it and if you die from it or anyone else, then that is your fault too.

[irish2]

Manual brakes.
No cruise.
No auto.
Problem solved.

[Whitey Ford]

Originally Posted by MAD

I think you should click back a page, he actually did mention speed.

Anyway, what does throttle position have to do with it? When set on cruise and at the set speed, the throttle will only be at minimal opening to keep the car at speed, as you slow down, the throttle will open to speed you up again.
The computer would just see brake application as a big hill.

Because at 100% throttle you have no vacuum so vacuum assisted brakes have less assistance than normal. The Lexus was at full throttle so the driver did not have vacuum assisted brakes. The Explorer was not at full throttle so he still had vacuum assisted brakes.

[PETE_XR6]

Originally Posted by RG

Where did I say I would do that immediately? Oh wait, I didn't. There you go jumping to another of your convenient conclusions in an attempt to strengthen what is a very weak argument at best.

Anyone who takes 54klm to figure out how to stop a car needs retraining. At 22 I think he should have known a little better.

Remember what? maybe engage your brain before driving, if all you do is go off what you read in a book then there isn't much hope for you on the road.

I don't remember reading , shown by my instructor or being tested on what to do when the brakes ,crusie control and keys fail.....screaming at someone because you think they are foolish and you would know exactly what to do does nothing to help the situation , unless your Batman

They don't teach this sort of stuff to drivers and as someone once said

"Don't blame the student Blame the teacher"

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by flappist

No benefit of the doubt here from all of the experts......

It appears that explorers have an electronic transmission so if there was a major failure of the ECU that locked it is gear, did not interpret the cruise disconnect and did not kill the engine when the key was turned off (it is not an XY) then the car may have gone silly.
As far as the brakes, it would not take a lot over overload the brakes and have them boil.

Weird things that have happened to me personally in Ford vehicles.

Total system failure (as in everything went dark) except that the engine still idled up to about 1500 rpm and I trundled home in 1st gear

EA Ghia manual about 1989.

Complete brake failure while travelling down the Gillies Hwy due to overheating and then the brakes recovered after about 15 mins.

EB Fairlane Ghia V8 (hertz rental) about 1990.

Locking system going bezerk randomly unlocking the car and also interfereing with the door handles.

EL Fairmont about 1999.

Engine stuck on 2700rpm, no faster, no slower (lots of fun in traffic). Needed to be fixed at FPV. (try slowing down a BOSS 290 even with brembos)

BA GTP August 2003.

Bezerk electrics that constantly destroyed mobile phones and anything else attached to the vehicle (was never solved even with replacement of almost all bits)

BA2 F6 May 2005-April 2008.

All of the above cars were new enough to be in original warranty.

Maybe he is fair dinkum, maybe not. He did not panic nor kill anyone so that is probably a good thing.

Lets see if there is a fault.

If not then lampoon the driver but if there is and no one does anything about it maybe the next time there will be a tragedy...

They are great examples... but Flappist this thread is not about the possibility of a computer/software glitch, it's the fact it was his fault for not knowing how to stop after the glitch occurred. (You can't expect Ford to be a fault even with previous examples of Explorer problems)

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Chopped

They are great examples... but Flappist this thread is not about the possibility of a computer/software glitch, it's the fact it was his fault for not knowing how to stop after the glitch occurred. (You can't expect Ford to be a fault even with previous examples of Explorer problems)

So if your computer stops you from turning off the engine and disengaging gear and your brakes boil, other than ramming something, how do you stop?

[Whitey Ford]

Originally Posted by flappist

So if your computer stops you from turning off the engine and disengaging gear and your brakes boil, other than ramming something, how do you stop?

Chopped is being sarcastic, claiming that we're all being unreasonable to expect the driver to overcome some magical glitch that caused this issue.

Even though the driver was eventually able to over come this issue by applying the brakes. Like a normal person.