Who is more Australian Holden or Ford?

[billy302]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

The first 3 prototype 48-215 (FX) holdens were produced o/s
And regoed here as chevs

The 48-215 was always promoted as "Australias own"
But the manufacture name Holden goes along way back than 1948

Correct the first 3 FX Holdens were indeed licensed in the USA as Chevs.
HMBB Holden Motor Body Builders built cars for many different manufacturer's in the 1920s including Overland, Chevrolet, Durant, Hupmobile and Dodge but I don't think they ever did bodies for ford. Ford had their own plant.
Holden History Quote
In 1924 "Holden's Motor Body Builders" became the sole Australian body builder for General Motors vehicles and had an output of over 22,000 bodies (over 11,000 for GM) in 65 different body styles.
End Quote

Holden 48/215 (FX)
1948 - 1953
Prime Minister Ben Chifley launched the car 'made in Australia, for Australia' in 1948, and nobody guessed what a runaway success this plain and practical sedan would immediately prove to be. Australians took the Holden straight to their hearts, commencing a love affair that continues to this day.

This is probably where it all came from. It says made in Australia
It says nothing about Australian Designed or Owned. What advertising can do when backed by the Prime Minister.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Both are assembled in australia, Ill give both the aussie nod.

As opposed to where the parts are sourced, much of a muchness I say, both aussie cars. Im just glad the VN V6 jackhammer engine wasnt australian built motor. Felt like holding onto a jackhammer when taking off from a standing start.

But then again it did run away from the equivalent aussie made EA Falcon 3.9 litre.

Huh? The VN V6 and all subsequent Commodore V6 engines were/are made at Fisherman's Bend in Melbourne. It was designed by Buick, but most definitely made in Melbourne.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Laser '81

If Holden claim their origination is Australian, you could argue that's even wrong too because the "Holden" name came from James Alexander Holden who founded a saddle maker shop (which eventually evolved into a coach building business) was a British migrant.

That means none of us can call ourselves "Australian" in that case since the continent of Australia was founded by the British.

The timeline JG34JA posted puts things into perspective. From 1984 up until now as far as content goes the Falcon is definitely more Australian.

From a heritage standpoint I still think Holden has more Australian history. If you asked someone when Holden was established most would say 1948 when the FX was released. While it is true the first production Holden was made in 1948 its history stretches far back before the invention of the car, and even before Henry Ford was even born.

Think of Suzuki. The first thing that comes for most people when they think of Suzuki is bikes, and cars when infact they started life as a loom works factory in Hamamatsu, Japan in the early 1900s.

Anyway I've never come across anyone in person who knows of Holden's history pre-1948. The most knowledgeable are typically internet users.

One problem I've always seen Ford has had to overcome is no matter how much local content their cars have the general notion is they are indeed American. Pretty much like Toyota. Toyota could make a car that's 100% Australian, but the fact the rest of the world see them as a Japanese manufacturer. It's difficult to to make people think otherwise.

Holden on the other hand has always had that "Australian pride" type of image instead of being invaders from another country like Ford, and Toyota. I don't agree with that btw. It's just a general consensus I've noticed over the years.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

obviously if it was a shortened (in my words) 46 chev, it could not have shared the exact same chassis. in my words though, my xb is not australian. no matter what anyone tries to tell me, it is still a cross between a torino and mustang. the basic shape of the 48-215 was already there - maybe as a vauxhall, but most definately as a chev. therefore in my view it is not australian





from what i have heard about them from people who drove them when they were younger, they were pieces of crap. the only reason people bought them was everything else was imported. 1948 was the last year of clam shell guards, yet holden thought australians are behind the times, we will supply them for the next 9 years. they won't know the difference - and they didn't

The FX does not have a chassis it's a mono type saving weight like our modern cars have so it was very advanced for it's time.
You could say all that year's type of cars look the same. but not many parts of the 48 chev would fit a FX and not one panel.
I would not say the FX is aussie designed at all, apart form the aussie in put other than that it's all GM. and there is nothing wrong with that.
If it was not for the USA or the pommy's we would never of been able to design and make a car from scratch even today.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by JG34JA

OK, I'm going to quickly jot down the Australian Engineering points for both respective companies that I can remember, not worrying about ownership in a > 95% foreign-owned country like Australia is.

Holden:
Styling of early models uniquely Australian, US oversight
Red engines 1964 - Australian developed, similar to Chevy but indigenous design
253 and 308 V8 - Australian design.
1960's Chevy Impalas locally assembled.
LC Torana - Australian design vastly modified from Opel (?) HB Torana, indigenous engines and engineering
HK-T-G: Australian design, Aussie motors for the first time when 253/308 are offered with the HT. HK Monaro is first truly Aussie Coupe by the big three. Long wheel base Brougham designed but is basically a Premier with a longer boot and Fairlane outsells it comfortably.
HQ-WB Fully Australian engineered partial chassis/monocoque, all Australian engines, this Ladies and Gentleman was their absolute 'peak' in 'Australianness'. Includes Statesman LWB, Australia's 1 tonner, Ute, Van wagon. 'Overlander' versions are engineered by a Tassie company.
LH Torana Australian.
VB Commodore - not Australian. Modified from Opel Commodore/Rekord, carries over 'red' engines with horrid ADR27A 'solution'. Major mistake in downsizing when motors not changed and consumption is very nearly equal.
VC Commodore - not, but uses Australian 'blue' engines. 4 cyl Commodore backfires.
Camira: Aussie (? - was it unique?) small car.
VH Commorore - not, end of 253 V8
VK Commodore - 'black engines' including EFI are last Aussie Holden 6.
VL - German based body, Nissan 6. Still has Holden 308/304 V8. Turbo version of Nissan 6 becomes a cult vehicle.
VN - Panic re-engineering and widening of Opel, panic inclusion of Buick V6
VP - similar. VG ute marks return of the missed Holden ute, gone since WB. VQ Statesman returns, again missed since WB.
VR - Restyle of VN.
VS - Ecotec motor released, similar to Buick but an evolution of this. Not sure if redesign is all Holden, or is shared in other GM products.
VT - Larger body of Opel/Vauxhall, adapted for Australian conditions. Holden finally regains the full size that HQ-WB had and sells. IRS under engineered compared to Ford. All-Aussie 308 V8 dies out in favour of LS1 Chev in 2000. In a wonderful move, the Monaro is reborn to much accolade.
Vectra - midsize FWD assembled at this time.
VX - Similar to VT, more refined.
VY - Sheet metal changes. Similar. Panel van fibreglass conversion offered for ute (rare). A range of derivatives are creatively sprung off the V platform by Peter Hannenberger: 1 tonner ute, Cross Trac AWD on this and the 'Crewman' dual cab ute, the Adventra wagon. These are pretty unique, and would work well in an Aussie car market that is not so open and filled with specialist 'niche' vehicles for every niche.
VZ - introduction of 3.6L HFV6. This is a world GM engine? Monaro via HSV goes AWD!
VE - Holden goes All-Australian, for the first time in Commodore history. All Australian designed body/platform. V8's imported, 6's assembled here (I think the blocks are imported?). Aussie station wagon continues as Sportwagon and unlike the Ford it is fully marketed. Development of 'SIDI' motors shared with GM USA. W427 HSV.
Cruze: local assembly of small car in sedan and hatch, petrol and diesel powertrains and quoted as 25% local content. It's a start!





Ford:
Zephyr was locally assembled model, similar to previous models built since 1925. A more informed historian might want to expand here.
1960's Fairlanes and Galaxies locally assembled.
Falcon was US competitor to Beetle on release, we got the XK and it's family of US 'Falcon 6'. Australian sedan, wagon, ute and panel van are included, and the ute is unique.
XL - Australian input on suspension, body work.
XM - More Australian input on body work
XP - Uses Mercury Comet front. Massive increases in durability engineered by Ford Australia and highlighted by the 70,000 mile torture test at the You Yangs
XR - US Falcon with Windsor V8
ZA Fairlane - Ford Australia creates its own long wheelbase luxury car using Falcon parts. Replaces Galaxie US design and is an instant hit. Uses Falcon 6 and imported V8, but follows all Falcon changes (so it gets more Australian as time goes on...)
XT - engine increases. With the 6, the Australian team raise the deck height by 1" and create a unique Aussie 6 in the 188/221. No American equivalent.
XW - Australian input in styling, 6's are Aussie modified
XY - Fully Australian designed 200/250 (*NOT the same as US motors of same displacement*) Cleveland V8's initially imported. Very first ever Aussie 4x4 ute by a mass manufacturer. Pity it didn't continue.
XA - Fully Australian designed body. Aussie made Cleveland V8s in Geelong. The Falcon becomes All Australian. Massive P4 and P6 LTD released, huge 120" wheelbase. Aimed as competitor to luxury sedans, this is the only time an Aussie company really did a separate, larger than LWB vehicle itself. Also Falcon Coupe and Landau introduced. Proves to be last Falcon coupe by Ford.
Cortina: Assembled in this time, fitted with Aussie 250 even!
XB - ditto to XA, all Australian design. Falcon takes out 'top selling car' title, as Bill Bourke predicted with launch of XW!
XC -ditto. Aussie inline 6 given 'Cross Flow'.
XD - 2nd Fully Australian Falcon generation. All Aussie design and engineering, with a look (but no commonality) with European Granada. Inline 6 gets a Honda-built alloy head however.
XE - Australian, gets Aussie watts link rear suspension. No more V8's. Aussie 6 gets EFI.
Laser (and Meteor?) assembled in this time.
XF - Australian. Ford destroys GM-H in sales, the XF is the pinnacle of Falcon's dominance in the 1980s. The 3.3L six with 5 speed transmission works out to be more economical than the smaller, Commodore competitor! This "we did it our way" spirit of engineering continues at Ford to this day.
EA - 3rd generation Fully Australian Falcon, powered by Aussie inline 6. The design is described as one of the best looking large sedans in the world, and is penned by Aussies. Ute/Van continues as XF. Aussie 6 gets SOHC, comes in 3.9 and (rare) 3.2L versions.
EB - Australian, US Windsor V8 makes a return. Aussie partner Tickford begins modifying Falcons with performance parts, engineers Aussie 6 for 'XR6' variants. Aussie 6 resized at 4.0L. Ute modified into XG and uses, basically, an EB front end (mechanically).
ED - Australian. XR6 wagon released. A golden age for wagon lovers.
EF - Australian, substantial reskin. Aussie 6 is evolved further. Last XR6 wagon dammit!
EL - Australian.
XH - last XD based ute, Last Australian Panel Van.
AU - 4th Fully Australian generation Falcon. Polarising styling hides a Unique Aussie IRS (huge and tough), Aussie inline 6 is substantially rebuilt into 'Intech' motor- VCT version is unique and developed by Tickford/Jaguar. BHP bake hardened steel body - how Aussie is that?! More Australian design and content than any Holden, ever. Dedicated LPG motor created in a first. Re-introduction of a modern Aussie Ford ute sees the 1 tonner reborn as well! Tickford begins hand assembling V8's which see their way into the XR8. Monster 5.6L Stoker Windsor unique to Australia and the last Tickford motor. The AU - the most Australian Falcon in design and content ever?
BA - Australian redesign of AU. Substantially modified. Aussie 6 gets DOHC, US Windsor V8 replaced by Aussie 'mix' of 5.4L Truck block with DOHC heads, also an imported 3V version exists for road cars. RTV hi-ride ute created, which is unique. GT reborn as an FPV. Aussie 6 is turbocharged and rewrites the performance landscape.
SX Territory - Fully Australian AWD and RWD wagon using Falcon 6.
BF/SY - inline 6 mated to German 6 speed ZF gearbox (made in Mex? Germany?) Aussie Falcon wagon bites the bullet, just before wagon segment takes off. Fairlane bows out.
FG - 5th generation design of Australian Falcon. FPV creates supercharged 5.0 V8 as a wholly Australian programme. Soon to come, LILPG and Ecoboost turbo 4cyl...
2011- New SZ Territory updates Aussie Crossover Wagon. First Aussie fitting of a diesel in a long time.

I get the sense that for both Manufacturers part sourcing has become increasingly foreign in the last decade as the onslaught of Chinese cheap parts has been felt, but in terms of engineering it's no contest - Falcon is more Australian by a country mile since 1984. In truth, both companies' history is one of taking ideas from offshore and 'Australianising' them over time. Every now and then they are able to engineer something 'fully Australian'. Long may it continue.

As for the ZA fairlane i think it replaces the USA fairlane not the galaxie that was still with us up to 1973.
The 188 and 221 engine was designed in the USA it was made in aus and south America.
I think the aussie XY 250 motor is the same as the USA but our XY 200 motor is different from the USA because the USA 200 has a lower deck height like our old XR 200 motor. we use the same block for the 200 & 250 from the XY to XB.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Laser '81

1950's model Chevrolets (eg, Bel Air) were assembled here (by Holden) according to a classic car magazine from the 90s. They had heavier gauge sheet metal than their US-built counterparts as well.

I don't know about the gauge of the metal but they were not the same as the USA model, mainly cost cutting. we had different dash ect ect.

[JG34JA]

Originally Posted by castellan

As for the ZA fairlane i think it replaces the USA fairlane not the galaxie that was still with us up to 1973.
The 188 and 221 engine was designed in the USA it was made in aus and south America.
I think the aussie XY 250 motor is the same as the USA but our XY 200 motor is different from the USA because the USA 200 has a lower deck height like our old XR 200 motor. we use the same block for the 200 & 250 from the XY to XB.

Hey, thanks for the info on 188/221! You learn something every day.

As for the Aussie 250, it definitely was Australian, they went to great pains to show how the Geelong developed 250 was superior to the US one, totally separate development, parts not interchangeable, and different bhp/torque peaks and readings. The Aussie 250 effort was headed by engineer Norm Downing, and the brief was low down torque, smoothness and durability. As far as I know, the 200 was a de-stroked version of the 250 and probably different to the US 200 (and earlier 200's used in Aussie Falcons) as well. For seemed to go with the 'one block, two strokes' theme in the 1970's, as the 302C (Geelong) was essentially a destroked 351 with different heads.

But yeah, thanks for the info

[XRtowcar]

Football , meat pies, kangaroos and um what was the brand?

[SSV Redline]

I think both Ford and Holden have etched a place in our Aussie culture and in our Aussie history. Nobody can change that. The rivalry has done alot to help keep both brands in the spot light. In the future however brands will give way to concepts and that means the name Ford and the name Holden will be pushed into the background. A popular modification is the de-badging of cars and more and more models are being released with less and less badging. There will come a time when a Ford will only be recognised as such because of the blue oval.

[Buntz]

Ford is more Aussie.

[290v]

Maughan Thiem Ford Adelaide have a read

History
The streets of Adelaide in the year 1912 certainly would have sounded, looked and felt very different from the way they are today. In 1912 it was barely more than a decade since the motor vehicle had made its first appearance in public, and many people still thought it was a passing fad, never to replace the horse. But so popular was the motor vehicle becoming that it was soon necessary to impose minimal road rules, with the speed limit set at 10 miles per hour, and 4 miles per hour at intersections. The police were given the task of enforcing these limits by timing drivers over quarter mile long speed traps.
The Maughan Thiem Motor Company was established during this period. The firm began as a partnership between Hubert Behrens and Eric Marshall, trading under the name Behrens and Marshall. At the time of its formation, provision was made for Alfred Ross Thiem to join the partnership, which he eventually did in April 1913. By December of that year, Frederick Milton Maughan had also joined the business, and it continued to operate as a partnership until December 1920, when it was formally registered as the Maughan Thiem Motor Company.
The firm’s early years concentrated on repairing and servicing the very popular Model T Ford, but by 1917 the company was buying and reconditioning used cars and trucks for resale to the public. The potential for selling accessories was soon recognised, offering items such as electric self-starters, ignition timers and vehicle lighting systems. Maughan Thiem always advertised itself as first in the field with the latest Ford accessories, and quickly established a reputation for caring for the needs of Ford owners. The company was also Adelaide's sole Castrol oils agent.
As Maughan Thiem grew, so did its ambitions, and it was not long before the firm was selling and servicing many different makes of motor vehicle. In the years up to June 1958, when the company was appointed a Ford dealer, it was agent for makes such as Enfield, Sterling trucks, Citroen, Stutz, Ruggles trucks, Graham-Paige, Nash, Willys and Singer. This period was one of enormous growth for Maughan Thiem, with the original premises in Flinders Street soon being complemented by a showroom in Pulteney Street. Tenancy of an additional premises at Hindmarsh followed, as well as a large showroom at Nailsworth.
Before all its various agencies were dropped in favour of the Ford franchise, Maughan Thiem moved into a further line of motor vehicle business. In 1954 the company started to sell products of the Rootes group, and found that the Humber, Hillman, Sunbeam and Commer vehicles sold well. However, shortly after taking on this franchise the company changed over to Ford, and the Rootes dealership was relinquished.
The sixties saw a dramatic period of consolidation for Maughan Thiem, with several properties being sold. However, an opportunity arose that was too good to ignore, when Dalgety & New Zealand Loan Limited, the oldest surviving Ford dealer, decided to withdraw from the Ford franchise. Dalgety's Wakefield Street premises consequently became

[Kingsley]

John Wright wrote an excellent book recently called 'Special. The untold story of Australia's Holden.' I suggest a few read it as it's well researched and pulls no favourtism either way.
The origins of the first 48/215 are a result of 1930's German and US design and engineering. Bear in mind that the move for an Australian car began post war at a time when vehicle design took an average of 6 years from concept to the final product. The chosen design was the abandoned 195 Y 15 project. This model was not simply put aside because of the war, but a totally abandoned GM design. The reason behind choosing that particular model was that Detroit engineers were busy designing the new post war GM products and extra projects and the time constraints to design a totally new model, particularly a foriegn one wre impossible.
To suggest this car was cutting edge in design is blatant mis-truth and niave. Monocoque designs beagn appearing on Opel's and Chevs in the mid 1940's. The engine was a shelved project at a time where feeble 6 volt electrics and vacuum wipers were beginning to disappear from European and US cars. Australians were treated like a backwater hick's because the lack of serious competition meant Holden could use as much of the 48/215's chassis and componentry for the basis of every Holden model to the HD. It was the arrival of the XK Falcon and Valiant R Series to make GM and Holden stop using outdated designs and componentry forcing them to compete. Chances are the VE Commodore would still be using the 48/215's drum brakes, vacuum wipers and 6 volt electics and bench seats under the VE shell if it wasn't for Ford and Chrysler!!!
The 48/215 was designed to be cheap to produce due to uncertainty of acceptance of it's targeted market. The first three were built and tested in Detroit. They were brought here to show the Australian GM/Holden workers how they were assembled. When one of these cars was discovered in the late 80's on the roof of a panel shop, Holden management refused to acknowledge that these cars were the original Chevrolet built, plated and tagged cars.
The 48/215 is not Australian designed, but it's model update, the FJ was. Australian's also designed the following FC to EK models but these were also were heavily American influenced designs based on the successful 1955 and 1957 Chevrolet's which were shrunken to suit the 48/215 chassis. When Holden took to Detroit the new model (EJ), it stood out like an embarassing sore thumb. GM took the crayon's off the Australian design team while they themselves tried to stetch a new design (EJ - HR) over the aging 48/215 chassis.
So the EJ and EH series models are wholly American designed. Detroit's influence features on all planning and design of every Holden model to the VE. Even the Holden Monaro was designed by American Ted Schroeder. Torana's were designed off Vaxhaulls and the Commodore was more German than American.
While neither company are Australian owned, and hadn't been since the 1930's, only the Tarrant remains Australia's truly designed and built automobile. Australians hold a tenious claim on the design of the first 'ute' design (Lou Bandt-Ford) which should be classed as Australian. GM in recent years claim to have had a ute design before Ford, however Ford lays claim to Aussie tradition by buliding the ute by at least 12 months.

[abo666]

As a kiwi it was always Holden,I was amazed how Ford is right up there..look at it this way that you aussies can brag about two car companies(2 more than us kiwis)

[ford lover]

holden is more australian by name only,not product.They play on' Australias own ''very well!They also buy off, a lot of racecar drivers and this appeals to people who dont know much about cars,even though v8 supercars have nothing to do with your garden variety holdens or fords.

[munners]

I was watching TV the other day with my wife and we saw a Ford Explorer on an American show. She commented that she thought Ford was only made in Australia. (God bless her!)

I guess it shows the difference in perspective from car enthusiasts to the average punter. Most people dont know and don't care especially either. I guess thats why Hyundai, Kai, etc are going so well. Good cars at good prices.

Munners

[Whiskeyonesix]

James Alexander Holden actually came from Walsall (where I grew up), in the West Midlands. If you've even been there you'll know why he left
As you were....

[au11futura]

ford invented the first aussie ute.

[Ryan]

Holden is more Australian, because I'm actually the founder. Ryan Holden is my name.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Holden is more Australian, because I'm actually the founder. Ryan Holden is my name.

i am wondering what ryan is holden

not the gearstick i suspect

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i am wondering what ryan is holden

not the gearstick i suspect

How silly of me. I was actually sent through time by James to rid this beautiful country of anything with a Ford badge on it.















Sorry I'm just bored as hell tonight lol.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Ryan

How silly of me. I was actually sent through time by James to rid this beautiful country of anything with a Ford badge on it.
.

i am glad you have not succeeded yet, but i am relieved i have debadged mine, just incase you do

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Huh? The VN V6 and all subsequent Commodore V6 engines were/are made at Fisherman's Bend in Melbourne. It was designed by Buick, but most definitely made in Melbourne.

I'm pretty sure they were imported.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

I'm pretty sure they were imported.

The series 1 engines were imported but series 2 onwards Aussie made. Just to clarify. And because I have nothing better to do on a Saturday night.

[SIMBAD]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Can I be blunt and say neither?

Holden brings in complete cars and motors from overseas - so does Ford (BOSS is a USA V8, Windsor was too) - probably the only point to make here is the I6 is Australian from birth.

Falcon is not Australian by birth, neither is Commodore.

Both companies do ultimately send profits overseas in one way shape or form, and both are HQ'd in the USA.

Haven't got threw the whole thread yet but what about the boss motor in the Fpv's? Aren't they assembled in Australia and built by Australian engineered bits off the American boss?
What I've always said that atleast the heart of my car is Australian.. Not like the holdens that just drip a creat motor straight on their car...

[2011G6E]

I still believe the correct answer is "neither". It would just be too hard to try and work out just how many bits and pieces of each car are truly, 100%, completely designed in Australia by Australian engineers.

[SteveJH]

Toyota.

They are all equally 'un-Australian', some of their products may be Australian, but the companies themselves all Australian based and registered Divisions of a larger American/Japanese/Multinational company.

Companies like Roaring Fourties etc can say they are Australian, Elfin....Australian based, Australian Registered....Walkinshaw owned....meh, who cares?

Another way of looking at it could be, would Ford Australia or GM Holden survive without their overseas head offices? Probably not.

[big_landau]

Originally Posted by noosacuda

Up untill the '90's the 1971 VH Valiant had the "Highest Australian Content" of all the Australian made cars of 97%. Lifters and some electrical components were from the US.

yep the vh valiant was more australian than ford and holden.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by flappist

But they never have.

GM sold Pontiacs not Holdens.

Whereas the left hand drive version of the Australian Ford Capri sold in USA was called a Ford Capri.

Actually, it was called the Mercury Capri ;)

I think the answer to the op's question is as mentioned early in this thread, it's based on perception and Holden have done a very good job at marketing Holden as 'Australian'.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Kieron

Actually, it was called the Mercury Capri ;)

I think the answer to the op's question is as mentioned early in this thread, it's based on perception and Holden have done a very good job at marketing Holden as 'Australian'.

Yeh the average Australian is rather gullible..

Just look at our governments.........

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Toyota.

They are all equally 'un-Australian', some of their products may be Australian, but the companies themselves all Australian based and registered Divisions of a larger American/Japanese/Multinational company.

Companies like Roaring Fourties etc can say they are Australian, Elfin....Australian based, Australian Registered....Walkinshaw owned....meh, who cares?

Another way of looking at it could be, would Ford Australia or GM Holden survive without their overseas head offices? Probably not.

The Camry is 99% a Japanese design, at least the Falcon and Commodore are designed here.