Holden seeks $300million to build two extra production lines in Adelaide

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

SA govco spends up on holdens...

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226285610920

The government is Holdens worst enemy. Firstly they may have purchased alot of $18,000 cruzes, but if they werent buying the cruze, they would have been purchasing $30,000 commodores. These cruzes in a few years time will hit the government auctions, and ruin the resale value of cruzes

Secondly its odd that a government that is buying cheaper cars to save money, then has to give the same company money because it is running out of it.

In all honesty, I wonder if people are going to stop buying Holdens because of Deverauxs big mouth. General Motors have shown they are quite willing to abandon warranties from non performing subsidaries. The Australian government has said it wont provide money to save jobs (exactly what holden want). Holden were late last year offering 5 year warranties (the last desperate attempt to keep a floundering company afloat). I wonder if a warranty bought on a new Holden now, is worth the paper.

[Gobes32]

Interesting view on Deveraux's comments, I personally don't care much for the persona of "woe is me, quick, give me money" Ford may have made bad decisions in the last few years, but they have never whinged nor blamed anyone else, they just got on with the job.

[jpd80]

Interesting to watch Cruze sales this year, Holden is expecting it to burst out of the blocks due to strong order bank.....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by dimka100

Contractors are generally getting paid 50% - 100% more for the same job compared to full time employees in most industries to compensate for the risk that is involved with contracting ...

A contractor who complains their contract was not renewed is simply someone who does not want to face reality .... one be asking for the benefits of significantly higher pay with no risks associated with it ... if you can't take risks then simply don't do contracting!

Ford workers who are put on contracts make less than full time employees. No compensation there.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

SA govco spends up on holdens...

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226285610920

It is nice to see government supporting there local industry..

I wonder what cars Vic polls are driving around in??

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Interesting to watch Cruze sales this year, Holden is expecting it to burst out of the blocks due to strong order bank.....

Since the hatch has come out orders are actually outstripping production, which is good. What is scary is that Holden wants Cruze in their future but they don't mention Commodore...

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

The government is Holdens worst enemy. Firstly they may have purchased alot of $18,000 cruzes, but if they werent buying the cruze, they would have been purchasing $30,000 commodores. These cruzes in a few years time will hit the government auctions, and ruin the resale value of cruzes

Secondly its odd that a government that is buying cheaper cars to save money, then has to give the same company money because it is running out of it.

In all honesty, I wonder if people are going to stop buying Holdens because of Deverauxs big mouth. General Motors have shown they are quite willing to abandon warranties from non performing subsidaries. The Australian government has said it wont provide money to save jobs (exactly what holden want). Holden were late last year offering 5 year warranties (the last desperate attempt to keep a floundering company afloat). I wonder if a warranty bought on a new Holden now, is worth the paper.

Nah most of the Cruze have replaced Camrys, Corollas, Prius, Lancer and Focus. Most departments who couldn't justify a Commodore or Falcon lost them years ago.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Since the hatch has come out orders are actually outstripping production, which is good. What is scary is that Holden wants Cruze in their future but they don't mention Commodore...

Maybe the Station wagon or the Orlando SUV/MPV thingy....

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Since the hatch has come out orders are actually outstripping production, which is good. What is scary is that Holden wants Cruze in their future but they don't mention Commodore...

I dont know whether that comment was just a belief or what, but the facts certainly dont back that up. The last few months sales have been running at mid 2 thousand sales. If they are making 400 cars a day and split it 50/50 (cruze/ commodore), they have the ability to make 4000 cruzes in a 20 day work month (even more if they arent selling 4000 commodore derivatives a month). They arent selling anywhere 4000 cruzes a month (even taken into account NZ exports), and havent done so since inception. Also, we are into March now, and they are still advertising 2011 models for sale. And a quick drive past Elizabeth shows quite a build up of cars.

The only way cruze makes any sense to Elizabeth, is if they are able to sell 120,000 of them a year.

[dimka100]

How does that work? what is the incentive then to do contracting?

Normally contractors do not get any Annual or Sick Leave, plus no other entitlements ... they however get paid 50% - 100% ... why would otherwise anyone do contracting???

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford workers who are put on contracts make less than full time employees. No compensation there.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

I dont know whether that comment was just a belief or what, but the facts certainly dont back that up. The last few months sales have been running at mid 2 thousand sales. If they are making 400 cars a day and split it 50/50 (cruze/ commodore), they have the ability to make 4000 cruzes in a 20 day work month (even more if they arent selling 4000 commodore derivatives a month). They arent selling anywhere 4000 cruzes a month (even taken into account NZ exports), and havent done so since inception. Also, we are into March now, and they are still advertising 2011 models for sale. And a quick drive past Elizabeth shows quite a build up of cars.

The only way cruze makes any sense to Elizabeth, is if they are able to sell 120,000 of them a year.

must you rain on brazen's parade!! you know he likes holdens.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by dimka100

How does that work? what is the incentive then to do contracting?

Normally contractors do not get any Annual or Sick Leave, plus no other entitlements ... they however get paid 50% - 100% ... why would otherwise anyone do contracting???

You hope to finish 12 months, when they either have to hire you full time or cut you loose, and hope they want to keep you on.

Problem is no contract worker I know of has even lasted long enough to get employed full time for more than 6 or 7 years at Ford, as they keep continuing to downsize. They haven't even hired someone on a contract for more than 2 or 3 years that i'm aware of.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

The only way cruze makes any sense to Elizabeth, is if they are able to sell 120,000 of them a year.

I've heard that the magic number is around 60,000 or roughly 5,000 a month and if
Holden are smart, get going that can do that and just let Commodore chime in.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

I dont know whether that comment was just a belief or what, but the facts certainly dont back that up. The last few months sales have been running at mid 2 thousand sales. If they are making 400 cars a day and split it 50/50 (cruze/ commodore), they have the ability to make 4000 cruzes in a 20 day work month (even more if they arent selling 4000 commodore derivatives a month). They arent selling anywhere 4000 cruzes a month (even taken into account NZ exports), and havent done so since inception. Also, we are into March now, and they are still advertising 2011 models for sale. And a quick drive past Elizabeth shows quite a build up of cars.

The only way cruze makes any sense to Elizabeth, is if they are able to sell 120,000 of them a year.

Car sales are generally slow this time of the year, hence the build up of cars in the yard.

I went near a Toyota holding yard this morning....it's pretty full. (Campbelltown)

Every night, I see 2 toll transport trucks, loaded with cars from Holden. There's generally a 50/50 mix of Commodores in various forms and Cruzes.

[The G6ET Spot]

He said Australia must be competitive if the car maker was to keep producing models.

Love the way Deveraux says that Australia must be competitive.

IMO it is about time that Holden (and all car manufacturers here for that that matter) became competitive and stopped expecting the taxpayer to fund them all the time.

For Holden to be holding their hand out nearly every 12 months for a hand out there must be something very drastically wrong with their business model that they work to.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by The G6ET Spot

Love the way Deveraux says that Australia must be competitive.

IMO it is about time that Holden (and all car manufacturers here for that that matter) became competitive and stopped expecting the taxpayer to fund them all the time.

For Holden to be holding their hand out nearly every 12 months for a hand out there must be something very drastically wrong with their business model that they work to.

exactly...every year they budget for more gov funding...and im sure with there foot so firmly entrenched in the gov in SA its aloy easier for them to expect it every time

Or maybe they are still using the old GM model from the U to the S to the A

[svo supporter]

Ban imported cars, so the Aussie car manufacturing industry can survive.

Either that, or make imported cars that expensive, the Aussie car is more attractive.

A big problem is, the wages for employees in this industry are through the roof, hence bumping the cost of producing these cars bloody expensive.

[dkpioe]

i have seen tons of holden cruzes around lately in Perth. to be honest, they are a great car for australian conditions. the styling is great, performance and economy great too for the majority public (non- enthusiats). i have even seen a few customised with large exhaust, and they look nice modded.
i can see why holden would put more focus on this car then commodore. it is more practicle in this day and age then both the falcon and commodore, and sales figures will prove that.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by dkpioe

i can see why holden would put more focus on this car then commodore. it is more practicle in this day and age then both the falcon and commodore,

not for everybody. i'd like to see you fit 4 people plus luggage in one and then travel across the country.

there is still a market for large cars, its just smaller.

also, the reason they don't focus on the small car is because its simply not as lucrative for them. there is very little profit in the small car segment because of the amount of competition. the cruze has had numerous price increases since being built here to try to justify its local production.

Originally Posted by svo supporter

A big problem is, the wages for employees in this industry are through the roof,

sure, wages are higher in this country than other auto manufacturing countries but does a shoebox house cost at least $300k in those countries?

having said that, i don't think the unions are helping, pushing for payrises every few years etc. wages in the auto sector are now a long way off the bottom of the pile.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

not for everybody. i'd like to see you fit 4 people plus luggage in one and then travel across the country.



There may still be a need for large cars

there is still a market for large cars, its just smaller.

also, the reason they don't focus on the small car is because its simply not as lucrative for them. there is very little profit in the small car segment because of the amount of competition. the cruze has had numerous price increases since being built here to try to justify its local production.

We're looking at this wrong way round, the problem for Holden is Commodore's falling sales, not Cruze's popularity.

Since 75% of large cars are purchased by fleets, the need for such large cars rests in the hands of fleet managers, not retail.
If fleets start to walk away from Falcon and Commodore, there is absolutely no business case for building either them.

Geoff Polites, moves to secure Territory for FoA is looking like Falcon's saviour ATM and if Ford stop
restricting petrol sales as much, Territory sales could really take off, even a Ecoboost RWD is possible.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

We're looking at this wrong way round, the problem for Holden is Commodore's falling sales, not Cruze's popularity.

Since 75% of large cars are purchased by fleets, the need for such large cars rests in the hands of fleet managers, not retail.
If fleets start to walk away from Falcon and Commodore, there is absolutely no business case for building either them.

but the end result is the same. the less commodores or falcons that sell, the more cruze or territories they need to sell.

if commodores numbers remain around 2-3000/month, i'd assume cruze needs to be some way above that to make it work.

tough gig in the small car market to try to take that much of the market share. if they can do it, kudos to them. at least it has that all important badge for the general population. they have shown numerous times they could sell anything with a holden badge.

mind you, and it pains me to say it, but i think a lot of the problem with commodores sales (probably in retail only) is the fact it is a car that was released in 06 and remains virtually identical. new car buyers want their neighbours to know they have a new car. unfortunately holden can't afford to upgrade it in the near future. when VF comes out (i've heard it will have a much more euro look) i would expect sales to spike again for a little while. holdens don't need to be the best cars. the general public has the perception they are the true local and that is tough for ford fans.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by prydey

sure, wages are higher in this country than other auto manufacturing countries but does a shoebox house cost at least $300k in those countries?

having said that, i don't think the unions are helping, pushing for payrises every few years etc. wages in the auto sector are now a long way off the bottom of the pile.

The average price for a house round the Holden plant is 200 K or there abouts. You could buy a semi for 100K. This is the Elizabeth/Salisbury North area. Move further away and yes the price increases.

There base rate back in 1996 was $750 per week, plus penality rates. You started on arvo shift, which automatically had penality rates. There were also other monetary benefits available to them.

I have no idea what the base wage is now, but for labouring work, they're on bloody good money.

Personally they should boot the unions off (flame suit on) and put them on a smaller wage, which would help with production cost reductions.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

but the end result is the same. the less commodores or falcons that sell, the more cruze or territories they need to sell.

if commodores numbers remain around 2-3000/month, i'd assume cruze needs to be some way above that to make it work.

tough gig in the small car market to try to take that much of the market share. if they can do it, kudos to them. at least it has that all important badge for the general population. they have shown numerous times they could sell anything with a holden badge.

mind you, and it pains me to say it, but i think a lot of the problem with commodores sales (probably in retail only) is the fact it is a car that was released in 06 and remains virtually identical. new car buyers want their neighbours to know they have a new car. unfortunately holden can't afford to upgrade it in the near future. when VF comes out (i've heard it will have a much more euro look) i would expect sales to spike again for a little while. holdens don't need to be the best cars. the general public has the perception they are the true local and that is tough for ford fans.

I understand your skepticism but:

1) If Holden get their way and can build as many Cruze as possible in Hatch, Sedan
and maybe S'Wagon or even Orlando MPV, then I think they will get up near 5,000/mth.
If fleets switch away from Commodore, Holden won't cry about Omega and SV6 losses
because will still sell a bucket load of V8s to retail so all is well..

2) If Ford really get going with Territory, lower Falcon sales will be less of a burden,
the important part is to maximize V6 diesel and I-6 petrol sales, do that and Territory
might get to 2400/mth - replacing a lot of lost Falcon sales..

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I understand your skepticism but:

not really being skeptical. just saying local production needs a certain volume to remain viable. no one knows what that number is except those in management at each company. many on here like to make guesses, some reasonably educated, but in the end they are just guesses.

both companies have 2 lines. i'm merely saying, if one line is decreasing, then the other line has to increase to pick up the slack. at the moment they seem to be about 50/50 in the popularity between each model. probably thankfully for falcon, the other local ford product also sells for high $30k+.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

not really being skeptical. just saying local production needs a certain volume to remain viable. no one knows what that number is except those in management at each company. many on here like to make guesses, some reasonably educated, but in the end they are just guesses.

both companies have 2 lines. i'm merely saying, if one line is decreasing, then the other line has to increase to pick up the slack. at the moment they seem to be about 50/50 in the popularity between each model. probably thankfully for falcon, the other local ford product also sells for high $30k+.

You just can't change the ratio over night without renegotiating supply contracts and rates of parts deliveries.
Give Holden a chance and I think you will see that number of Cruze absolutely soar as they hoe into Toyota
fleet sales and retail market....

I'm hoping that Ford goes on the front foot with Territory and pushes it for all its worth...
Since around 75-80% of Territorys are diesels, the average transaction price is well over $40,000
What Ford "loses" to holden in V8 sales (11,000/year) they kinda make up for with higher priced Territory..

Both manufacturers are heading down different routes, it will be interesting to see how this plays out..

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Give Holden a chance and I think you will see that number of Cruze absolutely soar as they hoe into Toyota
fleet sales and retail market....

sorry, can't share in your optimism.

Originally Posted by jpd80

Both manufacturers are heading down different routes, it will be interesting to see how this plays out..

agree

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

sorry, can't share in your optimism.

I accept that.
My view is premised on Holden taking sales away from Corolla and Mazda 3, something
Toyota and Mazda won't take lying down......

agree

I feel more comfortable with Ford's plan provided they leverage Territory to the max,
I've given up on what to do with Falcon until fleet buyers return, there's not much to add..

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I understand your skepticism but:

1) If Holden get their way and can build as many Cruze as possible in Hatch, Sedan
and maybe S'Wagon or even Orlando MPV, then I think they will get up near 5,000/mth.

Holden could get the government to pay for all their new models, just need to threaten to pull out if they don't.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by The G6ET Spot

Love the way Deveraux says that Australia must be competitive.

IMO it is about time that Holden (and all car manufacturers here for that that matter) became competitive and stopped expecting the taxpayer to fund them all the time.

I really hate comments like this... Do your homework & then come back. You'll find you are so far from right & Mr Deverauz is very right!!

It is no longer about just Australia, you need to look at what the world is doing. Take a look at what other governments give this same indurtry as a clue for you!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holden could get the government to pay for all their new models, just need to threaten to pull out if they don't.

So what are you more angry about, that Holden keeps asking for more funding for local products or that Ford doesn't really bother?

We know that Holden is tops in self promotion but sometimes being forthright
pays dividends while the silent grumblers get sweet FA and the long kiss goodbye..