FG FPV GT Rspec vs VF HSV GTS by MOTOR Mag

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by f6_benito

Who knows, maybe ford/fpv are planning one last punch? All they need to do is tune the GT/f6, throw some big tyres at them and they have a GTS beater

Even Call it a GTHO, I'd rather a HO than no HO (even if it isn't the worlds best car as the old timers would expect).

This has been flogged too many times no to HO respect the past the name has it's place in history on the racetrack not as a road car with no racing pedigree.Lets move on.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by Rodge

I think almost all of us would agree its a crying shame FPV wern't given a bit more latitude and funding.

Ford not having to take U.S. Govt bailout money because Ford ran a tighter ship...mate, frankly, tell someone who cares...just my opinion but I think people claiming they're more proud of the brand because of that are clutching at straws because Ford's tight arsed approach is exactly why FPV were never given the funding they really needed and had to constantly short-spec their cars and why the brand is going down the toilet so soon.

We are the losers from Ford's tight arsed approach and that's exactly why Ford are stopping production of the Falcon too. Ford never invested enough in the Falcon and short changed it on critical up to date technology and we should be proud of the brand because of that, WTF ?

At least Holden tried harder.

Geez Rodge, from an accountants point of view does that make good business sense? The market has changed and at least Ford can say they didn't have to get on their knees to pay for a cocked up business plan that doesn't work.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by responsef6

Disgraceful article by Morley, got no problem him giving props to gts but to completely bag out a car that is 20k cheaper, A generation older and does mid 4 second 0-100 and mid 12s, almost the same times as the gts . He should have some pride in what FPV achieved for the money... Which smashes the newer gen hsv r8 around the same price point

Also to david morley and everyone here carrying on about the fact gts did so much better times at the racetrack... When do we all race these cars weekly? Monthly?
They are 5 seat gt cars built for our roads, the fact they are quickish around race tracks is great, but isn't where they were designed to be used. City roads and curvy country roads is where we all spend our time in these cars, that is what's most important...how it feels on the roads. Even on spirited country runs, when do you apply max brake pressure every 10 seconds like at a track ...you don't! When do you take corners on public roads at 1g... You don't. What most of us use most of the time is the acceleration, and in this our turbo fords and fpvs f6 and gt have run rings around the opposition at every price level, for a decade! Hsv launch one last high priced hurrah that trumps the 6 year old fpv last gen chassis at a track and half you supposed ford fans start carrying on like ford and FPV are crap... Get over yourselves and have some brand loyalty ffs

Spot on.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by responsef6

Disgraceful article by Morley, got no problem him giving props to gts but to completely bag out a car that is 20k cheaper, A generation older and does mid 4 second 0-100 and mid 12s, almost the same times as the gts . He should have some pride in what FPV achieved for the money... Which smashes the newer gen hsv r8 around the same price point

Also to david morley and everyone here carrying on about the fact gts did so much better times at the racetrack... When do we all race these cars weekly? Monthly?
They are 5 seat gt cars built for our roads, the fact they are quickish around race tracks is great, but isn't where they were designed to be used. City roads and curvy country roads is where we all spend our time in these cars, that is what's most important...how it feels on the roads. Even on spirited country runs, when do you apply max brake pressure every 10 seconds like at a track ...you don't! When do you take corners on public roads at 1g... You don't. What most of us use most of the time is the acceleration, and in this our turbo fords and fpvs f6 and gt have run rings around the opposition at every price level, for a decade! Hsv launch one last high priced hurrah that trumps the 6 year old fpv last gen chassis at a track and half you supposed ford fans start carrying on like ford and FPV are crap... Get over yourselves and have some brand loyalty ffs

Since when is giving an honest or unbiased review disgraceful? Morley is hardly bagging it out he is just telling everyone how it is, the GTS is just a better car everywhere which is to be expected considering that the FG is now a generation behind and has been around since 2008.

Everyone on here knows how the great the R Spec is which is probably why most on here can admire or respect the new GTS, to be able to surpass the R Spec in every category all for under 100k is a great achievement regardless of the badge.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by XBGTFGGTP

Geez Rodge, from an accountants point of view does that make good business sense? The market has changed and at least Ford can say they didn't have to get on their knees to pay for a cocked up business plan that doesn't work.

Mate, Mulally has run the Ford business well and I would be very pleased with his performance and Ford's if i was invested in the company as a shareholder.

GM made a brave call with their investment in the VF, some call it reckless. I guess one company is really run by accountants and the other by motoring enthusiasts.

I don't lump GM and Chrysler's need for assistance in with the likes of Lehman brothers Investment bank that truly was a case of gross recklessness.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Reality is Holden were able to load these cars with kit because they didn't have to pay for it plain and simple, taxpayers did. If they couldn't spend recklessly what car would they have delivered then, an updated VT. VE didn't pay it's way but still they keep throwing money at it convincing consumers they are the Australian car when the local content in them was the least out of the 3.

Great con job though.

[GTP534]

It just proves Morley is not a car lover, he's not even an owner of any of these cars. Anybody who loves cars would not bag out another car just because something new and better comes along.

I love my R-Spec, it's a great car but HSV have built a better mousetrap this time. You would expect it to be better given it's newer, it's received more investment from Australian taxpayers for its donor vehicle development and it's more expensive.

I don't place much emphasis on track performance as I don't venture on to race tracks. I also don't place much emphasis on 0 to 100 times either as I very rarely go wide open throttle, but when I look at the 0 to 100 and 80 to 120 times I see the old girl R-Spec is not too shabby at all. It's still an excellent Grand Touring (GT) car and will be a hell of a lot cheaper to maintain than a GTS.

Also, on the subject of Ford's financial management, I think we should be proud of the fact that Ford did not draw on any Government line of credit.

At least after 2016 we can still purchase vehicles with a Ford badge. Anything GM import here and stick a Holden badge on won't mean anything in my opinion.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by Rodge

I think almost all of us would agree its a crying shame FPV wern't given a bit more latitude and funding.

Ford not having to take U.S. Govt bailout money because Ford ran a tighter ship...mate, frankly, tell someone who cares...just my opinion but I think people claiming they're more proud of the brand because of that are clutching at straws because Ford's tight arsed approach is exactly why FPV were never given the funding they really needed and had to constantly short-spec their cars and why the brand is going down the toilet so soon.

We are the losers from Ford's tight arsed approach and that's exactly why Ford are stopping production of the Falcon too. Ford never invested enough in the Falcon and short changed it on critical up to date technology and we should be proud of the brand because of that, WTF ?

At least Holden tried harder.

NO. Ford haven't crammed their cars full of poxy gadgets that don't work or have constant issues. Holden packed the bombadore full of cheap and nasty trinkets that long-term will be a massive pain in the ***.

If anyone thinks the Holden comes close to the build quality of a Falcon then you're a bloody idiot.

GTS is one or two tenths quicker but ten times less reliable.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by GTP534

It just proves Morley is not a car lover, he's not even an owner of any of these cars. Anybody who loves cars would not bag out another car just because something new and better comes along.

I love my R-Spec, it's a great car but HSV have built a better mousetrap this time. You would expect it to be better given it's newer, it's received more investment from Australian taxpayers for its donor vehicle development and it's more expensive.

I don't place much emphasis on track performance as I don't venture on to race tracks. I also don't place much emphasis on 0 to 100 times either as I very rarely go wide open throttle, but when I look at the 0 to 100 and 80 to 120 times I see the old girl R-Spec is not too shabby at all. It's still an excellent Grand Touring (GT) car and will be a hell of a lot cheaper to maintain than a GTS.

Also, on the subject of Ford's financial management, I think we should be proud of the fact that Ford did not draw on any Government line of credit.

At least after 2016 we can still purchase vehicles with a Ford badge. Anything GM import here and stick a Holden badge on won't mean anything in my opinion.

I don't see how the GT would be any cheaper to maintain than a GTS

[stazza]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

I don't see how the GT would be any cheaper to maintain than a GTS

Less cheap trinkets, simpler tech, cheaper tyres. Plus GTS owners will have to constantly clean the vomit from the horrible interior and exterior when people see how ******* ugly it is.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by stazza

Less cheap trinkets, simpler tech, cheaper tyres. Plus GTS owners will have to constantly clean the vomit from the horrible interior and exterior when people see how ******* ugly it is.

Tyre prices are a much of a muchness depending on what brand you go, 20in tyres are not that expensive anymore. As for electronics is too early to tell which will fare better. Who knows maybe with the beefed up driveline over time the GTS might be cheaper to maintain.

Oh and don't even start on horrible interiors you have a FG GS lol

[stazza]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

Tyre prices are a much of a muchness depending on what brand you go, 20in tyres are not that expensive anymore. As for electronics is too early to tell which will fare better. Who knows maybe with the beefed up driveline over time the GTS might be cheaper to maintain.

Oh and don't even start on horrible interiors you have a FG GS lol

Oh a bit of a personal attack there buddy. GS interior is all black, roof lining and all and doesn't have 750 thousand dials and knobs and doesn't look like a stretched alien head. Look at the car you drive mate, with the silver interior that peels up in hot sunlight.

And too early to tell with the electronics? Go look on ls1 forums

People have been picking them up day one with countless issues.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

Parked next to a GTS the other day... it's definitely a generation ahead... can't see what the fuss about a next gen car with all the trimmings beating a previous gen car. How did the VE GTS stack up? Oh that's not fair to ask is it...

Edit: interior was very nice... still looked like a mazda from the rear. Front was very muscle car, did like. Wouldn't like to know the cost of a service though :/

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

I don't see how the GT would be any cheaper to maintain than a GTS

It's just my opinion based on the fact that the GTS is a more sophisticated vehicle than the GT and sophistication will have a premium when it comes to run and maintain a vehicle.

My car is serviced by the selling Ford/FPV dealer and I'm quite happy to have my servicing costs compared with a VF GTS serviced by a Holden/HSV dealer.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

Tyre prices are a much of a muchness depending on what brand you go, 20in tyres are not that expensive anymore. As for electronics is too early to tell which will fare better. Who knows maybe with the beefed up driveline over time the GTS might be cheaper to maintain.

Oh and don't even start on horrible interiors you have a FG GS lol

Indeed and I don't think the person who can afford a GTS is going to be particularly worried about tyre prices anyway. I also wonder if the GTS will eat diff bushes every 5,000km?

Your comment about the GS interior is spot on- it's truly horrible. Regardless, I wouldn't put it on the same level as an HSV for comparison anyway- because while they did stick the badge on it, it's a faux FPV- no body kit, no interior, no brakes- it's an XR8 that was pushed into the FPV lineup at the last minute (I have the internal memo) so I've never blamed FPV for how it turned out. The GT/F6 interiors are much nicer but overall still no match for the Gen F interior (in my opinion).

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by XBGTFGGTP

Reality is Holden were able to load these cars with kit because they didn't have to pay for it plain and simple, taxpayers did. If they couldn't spend recklessly what car would they have delivered then, an updated VT. VE didn't pay it's way but still they keep throwing money at it convincing consumers they are the Australian car when the local content in them was the least out of the 3.

Great con job though.

Do you realise that GM has paid all the money back now mate ?

What about Air New Zealand and Bank Of New Zealand, bailed out by the N.Z. Govt, just because XYZ company got into trouble and ABC company didn't isn't especially relevant years down the track, well not to me anyway.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by stazza

Oh a bit of a personal attack there buddy. GS interior is all black, roof lining and all and doesn't have 750 thousand dials and knobs and doesn't look like a stretched alien head. Look at the car you drive mate, with the silver interior that peels up in hot sunlight.

And too early to tell with the electronics? Go look on ls1 forums

People have been picking them up day one with countless issues.

I agree my interior isn't anywhere near as good as the GTS but hey atleast my GT-P seats are almost as good lol. As for the silver peeling im not sure what you mean mine still looks fine.

New generation cars are always going to issues regardless of brand but from what I saw on ls1 forum it doesnt look too bad, so far only 347 posts most of which is probably just general chit chat.

Anyway back on topic

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by XBGTFGGTP

Reality is Holden were able to load these cars with kit because they didn't have to pay for it plain and simple, taxpayers did. If they couldn't spend recklessly what car would they have delivered then, an updated VT. VE didn't pay it's way but still they keep throwing money at it convincing consumers they are the Australian car when the local content in them was the least out of the 3.

Great con job though.

HSV got taxpayer funding?

[stazza]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Indeed and I don't think the person who can afford a GTS is going to be particularly worried about tyre prices anyway. I also wonder if the GTS will eat diff bushes every 5,000km?

Your comment about the GS interior is spot on- it's truly horrible. Regardless, I wouldn't put it on the same level as an HSV for comparison anyway- because while they did stick the badge on it, it's a faux FPV- no body kit, no interior, no brakes- it's an XR8 that was pushed into the FPV lineup at the last minute (I have the internal memo) so I've never blamed FPV for how it turned out. The GT/F6 interiors are much nicer but overall still no match for the Gen F interior (in my opinion).

I've done 30,000kms on the stock bushes without any issues?

The GS interior is identical to the other FPV interiors aside from the front seats, provided you option the leather and premo sound so not sure what you're getting at there. That fact is backed up by people complaining about the lack of features between Falcon and FPV.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Do you realise that GM has paid all the money back now mate ?

What about Air New Zealand and Bank Of New Zealand, bailed out by the N.Z. Govt, just because XYZ company got into trouble and ABC company didn't isn't especially relevant years down the track, well not to me anyway.

Mate, that's the next big scam. Do you know GM only paid back 12b, the rest was written off by the government and their are concerns that GM could go again if the culture doesn't change. All I'm saying is what could Holden produce if they had tighter budgets while developing cars.

As Jim says we should be proud that at least Fords will be Fords, what will Holden's be?

[Rodge]

He's probably taking about a regular GS interior without option which look s just like an XR6.

Hemi my understanding mate, (I havn't followed it very closely) is that they paid back some in cash and most of the rest was converted to GM shares, but you may be right I havn't followed it all that closely but listening to CNBC the other day they announced that the final tranche of GM shares owned by the U.S. Govt had been sold to institutions. I'm not sure of the complete in's and out's of the deal but seeing as GM's stock is up about 40% this year maybe they didn't do too badly ?

Two things make me nervous looking ahead. FPV will end well before HSV and Ford will gut existing FPV hardware for future XR8's which to a certain extent will undermine the brand value of FPV's going forward IMHO. A well optioned XR8 will have ostensibly the same kit as the final FPV will it not ?, at a more realistic price point, so what exactly apart from the FPV and GT badge is special about the last FPV's ?

OTOH the GTS will retain its unique niche in the market just like an E63 AMG is well differentiated from regular E Class Merc models.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

HSV got taxpayer funding?

Without taxpayers funding Holden, HSV wouldn't have such a good base to start with.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by stazza

I've done 30,000kms on the stock bushes without any issues?

The GS interior is identical to the other FPV interiors aside from the front seats, provided you option the leather and premo sound so not sure what you're getting at there. That fact is backed up by people complaining about the lack of features between Falcon and FPV.

As Rodge said, the standard GS interior comes straight out of the XR6. An optioned GS (whilst an improvement) is just an XR6 with luxury pack, so all of the little things that make an FPV feel like an FPV are absent as a result- the suede lining the door trims isn't there, the suede lining the console trims is missing, there is no stitched console lid, the front and rear seats are standard XR items sans the embroidery, there's no glovebox dampening, list goes on.

Regarding people complaining about the lack of features between a Falcon and FPV, this is true. However they also complain about the lack of features in general. Holden have gone to great lengths to fill the VF with new features and HSV have gone even further. But you personally seem to disagree with adding features to the cars and instead claim that they will be unreliable for having those features. Can't win.

[Rodge]

Fuel Use
GTS 15.7 L/100 km's, R Spec 13.7 L/100 km's. Nobody's really talked about this till now.

HSV burns 15% more fuel than the FPV, does that matter, not sure ?

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Fuel Use
GTS 15.7 L/100 km's, R Spec 13.7 L/100 km's. Nobody's really talked about this till now.

HSV burns 15% more fuel than the FPV, does that matter, not sure ?

Personally I wouldn't care my ute use 20L/100km on average. I doubt anyone buying a high performance V8 would car too much about spending an extra $10 or so a week on fuel compared to the R Spec

[BENT_8]

So many lols in this thread.
You know, sometimes its just embarrassing to be associated with ford, and its nothing to do with the brand or product...

So lets get this straight, the GTS was developed to be the greatest production racer in Australian history...to date.
To date, now that's an interesting thought, because, as has been said, the GTS is the new kid on the block, it should be better in every way, that is evolution.
To date, it is the best.
But that is relevant, the only thing to compare it to is a generation behind.
Does that mean it cant be compared?
In 71 the XY won Bathurst, it competed against a 3 year old Torana.

Engine size is an interesting topic, the GTS delivers similar power to the smaller GT despite its 1.2l advantage.
Is it fair to compare a 6.2l current gen engine to a 3 yr old 5.0l?
In 71 the 5.8l XY GT won Bathurst, it competed against a 3 year old 3.0l Torana.

See throughout history we have compared offerings from both camps and quite often the test subjects have been poles apart in a number of areas.
Does this lessen their place in history...?

When Ford released Australias first supercharged V8 did it not get compared to the HSV offering?
Is it fair to compare N/A and SC?

You could go on for ever picking little discrepancies to justify why the GT shouldn't be compared to the GTS be it displacement, price, release date etc. etc. but the fact remains, in 2013 GM Holden released Australias fastest muscle car to date, it is the VF GTS.

Ford have the right to reply, unfortunately the rules have changed and that will never be.
In 71 the XY GT won the last series production race at Bathurst, it is therefore hailed as the king.
The rules were changed for the following season, No one had a right to reply.
Does this detract from the GT's status...?

When you start to consider funding your really clutching at straws.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

So many lols in this thread.
You know, sometimes its just embarrassing to be associated with ford, and its nothing to do with the brand or product...

So lets get this straight, the GTS was developed to be the greatest production racer in Australian history...to date.
To date, now that's an interesting thought, because, as has been said, the GTS is the new kid on the block, it should be better in every way, that is evolution.
To date, it is the best.
But that is relevant, the only thing to compare it to is a generation behind.
Does that mean it cant be compared?
In 71 the XY won Bathurst, it competed against a 3 year old Torana.

Engine size is an interesting topic, the GTS delivers similar power to the smaller GT despite its 1.2l advantage.
Is it fair to compare a 6.2l current gen engine to a 3 yr old 5.0l?
In 71 the 5.8l XY GT won Bathurst, it competed against a 3 year old 3.0l Torana.

See throughout history we have compared offerings from both camps and quite often the test subjects have been poles apart in a number of areas.
Does this lessen their place in history...?

When Ford released Australias first supercharged V8 did it not get compared to the HSV offering?
Is it fair to compare N/A and SC?

You could go on for ever picking little discrepancies to justify why the GT shouldn't be compared to the GTS be it displacement, price, release date etc. etc. but the fact remains, in 2013 GM Holden released Australias fastest muscle car to date, it is the VF GTS.

Ford have the right to reply, unfortunately the rules have changed and that will never be.
In 71 the XY GT won the last series production race at Bathurst, it is therefore hailed as the king.
The rules were changed for the following season, No one had a right to reply.
Does this detract from the GT's status...?

When you start to consider funding your really clutching at straws.

@ GTS and muscle car in the same sentence. There is nothing muscular about a Hyundai/Toyota/Mazda/Kia lookalike, no matter what tge specifications.

[bobwm]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

As Rodge said, the standard GS interior comes straight out of the XR6. An optioned GS (whilst an improvement) is just an XR6 with luxury pack, so all of the little things that make an FPV feel like an FPV are absent as a result- the suede lining the door trims isn't there, the suede lining the console trims is missing, there is no stitched console lid, the front and rear seats are standard XR items sans the embroidery, there's no glovebox dampening, list goes on.

Not sure how much the list goes on... Nor am I sure how this is relevant to the thread given it's about the GT vs GTS. However, I have a late 2010 GS and it has the suede door trims (seemed quite odd compared to the XRs I had previously but hey, it's there), has the FPV sill plates and it has the FPV cluster. Something I recall you valuing so much that you installed an F6 cluster in your now departed XR6T.

What it's missing appears to be the sunglasses holder, the stitched console lid and the seats (or at least the different coverings for the seats? GT/F6 seats don't seem that different to an XR underneath..). I'm not sure what glovebox dampening is. Perhaps I've been living with a non dampened glovebox for all this time and didn't even realise it.

It is missing the silver plastic from around the shifter and the different coloured plastic around the ICC and the dash/door spears also.

But don't forget what really makes an FPV what it is - the stripes on the outside. The GS had em and you couldn't even option them away

Speaking of how valuable those FPV extras are, I can tell how much you thought they were worth having bought two FG XRs and now a commodore. Maybe the SS had the dampened glovebox in the SV6 with a V8 model you were willing to buy from the other side and that was what swayed you from an F6 or GT with the stitched centre console?

Speaking for myself, I understand that the GS is a lower end model than the GT and the F6. It was cheaper and accordingly had less stuff. It does feel like a step up from the FG XR8 and XR6T I owned before it. The little extras that I wasn't expecting (based on all the complaining here about GSs) like the 3 years roadside assistance, the minor interior changes, FPV compendium, drive day invitation (at added cost unlike GT/F6). Even with less content than its bigger brothers, it still felt like a slightly more special experience than buying an XR.

To add something to the topic at hand, I'm not sure why they would have left out the 0-400m time for the GT R-Spec, beyond the obvious conspiracy theories. The writer goes on about the GTS not having launch control in the auto and talks about the GTS being a 'genuine mid-12 second car'. Here's the relevant paragraph for those who are curious:

But the auto trans does impose one fairly glaring compromise in the HSV's make-up: no launch control. Yep, for reasons known only to high-ranking engineers, the manual GTS gets launch control while the self-shifter does not. This, of course, matters most on a drag-strip, but it's a fair bet a reasonable percentage of owners will want to try 400m of hotmix for themselves and really see what the fuss is all about. Of course, even without launch control, the GTS is still a genuine mid-12-second car. But the margin between it and the FPV is much smaller than you might imagine, as our best time at Heathcote of 12.75 seconds at 182.46km/h proves.

Things get tough for the FPV from there, though....

Not sure why they wouldn't just share the GT R-Spec time. Nor anywhere in the article do they make reference to the fact that at the time of launch the GT R-Spec left the then current E Series 2 or 3 or whatever it was GTS in the dust. There's just comparisons between the GTS and previous HSV generations. Then mentioning how crap the seating is in the GT. I get the GTS is better and faster around a track, but you'd think there'd be something more in the way of acknowledgement for what the R-Spec was at the time of release, other than just the fastest Ford.

[Tough Ford]

Was it not GM who sent their workers packing with no health care and entitlements, not sure of the numbers but I'm sure it ran into the thousands, how's that for poor form. Im sure all those families are greatful for GMs bailout.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by stazza

@ GTS and muscle car in the same sentence. There is nothing muscular about a Hyundai/Toyota/Mazda/Kia lookalike, no matter what tge specifications.

I take it you agree with the rest...lol