FPV's response to VE

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by HSE2

No definitely not a type o.

As Fords stated objective was to appear to be more pre emptive rather then reactive the position taken by Ford with the work on BF looks to have taken a fair bit of the gloss off VE features.

VE gets world class new IRS - BF already has it.
VE gets suspension system said to be better then BMW. Ford already proved control blade can better BMW benchmarks tested independently on European soil.

VE gets state of the art brakes control, Ford already using it.

Power upgrade with BF Holden forced to react.

DSC introduced in selected models in BF Holden now reacts with DSC across the range.

Holden introduce theme design interiors. Ford did that with AU.

Holden introduce 6 speed auto, Ford already has it.

Ford has a “real” performance option in the 6 department, Holden yet to react.

Ford have a product with Ford DNA, Holden has lost some of their DNA.

Holden introduce a dash design based on ICC, Holden 4 years later catch up.

and so on.


That’s surface stuff. There will be improvements in plastic quality and in the "feeling" as one naturally expects with brand new models. What concerns me most about Holden’s VE is that it has an element of me too to it. I understand completely why Holden people love this car. It will be a huge step up over the last car, but it does come across as a part of this part of that, someone done this, someone already has done that, sort of thing. For a fresh sheet 1 billion dollar design I was expecting more. Perhaps those expectations were too high. To me the fornt of the SS doesn't belong on a car with that side profile. Stick the bras on front and rear and my opinion goes up 10 fold. The side profile is stunning on some models. The head light design actually keeps the BF looking fresh and so on.

Now all I have said there is the reverse for nearly anything associated with FPV when judged to the same criteria with emphasis on being pre emptive and not wanting to follow. For now until the real tests start I am comfortable with Ford position against the all signing all dance saviour of the universe.
I am not sure Holden have done enough. A more detail option will follow once the car has been released and I have sampled it first hand. But remember you did ask.

Fellow Ford peoples if I come under attack please feel free to defend my honour over the next 12 hours :evil3:

That’s my opinion

Control Blade better then BMW? Is this the Ford Focus Control blade we are talking about here?.

VZ Already had state of the art brakes (ABS, BA, EBA, EBD, ESP, CBC). VE now has ESP on all Sedan models standard.
Theme design interiors? Are we going anywhere with that? If we are talking about the colour inserts in the interior then you should know this was a feature way back in many commodore models including HSV.
Power upgrades 5 kw isn't a reaction 10-15kw is a reaction. But if we are talking open about reactions, Do you believe the magic number of the BF 190 was a reaction to Alloytech 190?. (You would say no).
DSC = Already on VZ.. (ABS, BA, EBA, EBD, ESP, CBC)
How about Holden introduces 5 speed auto, Ford Reacts with a 6 speed auto.
Holden introduces a 6 speed manual, Takes ford oh god how many years to respond?.
What makes you think holden needs to react to the I6T? Holden had a real performance Coupe, Ford yet to react, (And it will return).
Lost DNA? For the first time it's Holden's own DNA in this car. Not a rebuilt model of anything else.
ICC? TFT? Took Ford years to ad Trip computer dash it goes on and never ends.

But all this **** aside it's still how it drives will be the main focus, It's build quality is second to none now. It's on a new level now it's not the old VT here.

I don't see the here there your talking about. I find it if it being nit picked at it's being brought down to make it less of a jump ahead of the BF. Time will really tell on this.

And thats my opinion :eclipsee_

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by BadMac

Since when does Boss 290 mean the engine has 290Kw's. It could be its cubic capacity (which would be GOOD!), a model number (many makes use 3 numbers as their model).

Since it said so on the Ford website!!!

Originally Posted by fpv.com.au

Its 5.4-litre capacity, 32 valves and double overhead camshafts per bank work in concert to produce 290 kilowatts of power and a phenomenal 520 Newton metres of torque.

Back on track... It's hard to guess FPV response to the VE when the HSV E series have not been released yet... etc, etc.... If HSV just change a few models around, yet keep the same engine, FPV repsonse might be very subtle... but if HSV are changing engines, outputs, wieghts, etc... Then FPV do have an upper hand to see how the new HSV's will be priced and how the public will react to that.... If the starting price for a HSV went to $70k (example only), and FPV didn't change a thing... FPV would have a very nice upper hand...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Control Blade better then BMW? Is this the Ford Focus Control blade we are talking about here?.

VZ Already had state of the art brakes (ABS, BA, EBA, EBD, ESP, CBC). VE now has ESP on all Sedan models standard.
Theme design interiors? Are we going anywhere with that? If we are talking about the colour inserts in the interior then you should know this was a feature way back in many commodore models including HSV.
Power upgrades 5 kw isn't a reaction 10-15kw is a reaction. But if we are talking open about reactions, Do you believe the magic number of the BF 190 was a reaction to Alloytech 190?. (You would say no).
DSC = Already on VZ.. (ABS, BA, EBA, EBD, ESP, CBC)
How about Holden introduces 5 speed auto, Ford Reacts with a 6 speed auto.
Holden introduces a 6 speed manual, Takes ford oh god how many years to respond?.
What makes you think holden needs to react to the I6T? Holden had a real performance Coupe, Ford yet to react, (And it will return).
Lost DNA? For the first time it's Holden's own DNA in this car. Not a rebuilt model of anything else.
ICC? TFT? Took Ford years to ad Trip computer dash it goes on and never ends.

But all this **** aside it's still how it drives will be the main focus, It's build quality is second to none now. It's on a new level now it's not the old VT here.

I don't see the here there your talking about. I find it if it being nit picked at it's being brought down to make it less of a jump ahead of the BF. Time will really tell on this.

And thats my opinion :eclipsee_

On paper at least it looks like VE has caught up with the BF level of design and appointment, as others have said im not sure that's enough really, especially when its Holden's turn in the "leapfrog" cycle, they're still stressing about their ecconomy testing, as the extra weight and euro 3 will leave them vulnerable in this area.
Im pretty confident Ford will be pleasantly surprised that the goal posts havent moved much, if at all.
As far as build quality goes? none of us know yet do we because it hasn't been sold yet, as far as how it drives? again that remains to be seen..
DNA? well they import and use a Chev (not Holden) motor for the 8's dont they?

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

On paper at least it looks like VE has caught up with the BF level of design and appointment, as others have said im not sure that's enough really, especially when its Holden's turn in the "leapfrog" cycle, they're still stressing about their ecconomy testing, as the extra weight and euro 3 will leave them vulnerable in this area.
Im pretty confident Ford will be pleasantly surprised that the goal posts havent moved much, if at all.
As far as build quality goes? none of us know yet do we because it hasn't been sold yet, as far as how it drives? again that remains to be seen..
DNA? well they import and use a Chev (not Holden) motor for the 8's dont they?

OK so your saying wait wait wait. But still claim many things. Why don't you take your own advice and wait before we discus goal post and leapfrogs

Importing the Chev engine isn't far off the Boss, Holden could easily slap it together here and claim many things. But still what is the big deal in highlighting something the whole of Australia already knows in that holden has used imported the Chev engine since VT II?.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

OK so your saying wait wait wait. But still claim many things. Why don't you take your own advice and wait before we discus goal post and leapfrogs

Importing the Chev engine isn't far off the Boss, Holden could easily slap it together here and claim many things. But still what is the big deal in highlighting something the whole of Australia already knows in that holden has used imported the Chev engine since VT II?.

I am waiting... i did say "on paper" as a preface.

Imported Chev is nothing like the BOSS, The BOSS motor is made by Ford, the BF is made by Ford, the chev motor is made by Chevrolet, the VE is made by Holden.
If Ford used a Jaguar motor you could draw the same comparrison.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I am waiting... i did say "on paper" as a preface.

Imported Chev is nothing like the BOSS, The BOSS motor is made by Ford, the BF is made by Ford, the chev motor is made by Chevrolet, the VE is made by Holden.
If Ford used a Jaguar motor you could draw the same comparrison.

As i did also.
On paper they are already saying the interior is a generation ahead in ever way over the previous models. Fit and Finnish is way up as is quality materials. Now when the VY and BA first came out most of the tester said you be the judge on them. As time went on the VY into VZ was starting to look old against the BA-BF interior. So the leap ahead on that i believe so far is one that will be a catch up for Orion.

Guess the Boss is lucky it's the FoMoCo engine. But if Ford did use jags engines it really shouldn't be any different as they are all owned by FoMoCo. Same with GM.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I am waiting... i did say "on paper" as a preface.

Imported Chev is nothing like the BOSS, The BOSS motor is made by Ford, the BF is made by Ford, the chev motor is made by Chevrolet, the VE is made by Holden.
If Ford used a Jaguar motor you could draw the same comparrison.

I know this hasn't got much to do, with Falcons and Commodores, but the XR5T uses a Volvo engine, doesnt it?

[marcosambrose]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I know this hasn't got much to do with Falcons and Commodores, but the XR5T uses a Volvo engine, doesnt it?

Yep, Ford owns volvo, in the same way GM owns opel.

a-la Astra VXR engine is technically an Opel engine.
Focus XR5 engine is techincally a Volvo.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by marcosambrose

Yep, Ford owns volvo, in the same way GM owns opel.

a-la Astra VXR engine is technically an Opel engine.
Focus XR5 engine is techincally a Volvo.

Astra is opel? Isnt it?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

As i did also.
On paper they are already saying the interior is a generation ahead in ever way over the previous models. Fit and Finnish is way up as is quality materials. Now when the VY and BA first came out most of the tester said you be the judge on them. As time went on the VY into VZ was starting to look old against the BA-BF interior. So the leap ahead on that i believe so far is one that will be a catch up for Orion.

On Paper HOLDEN are saying its a generation ahead... which it is, VE is the next generation of vehicles ahead of VZ.
It hasnt gone "head to head" for comparrison with the BF yet.
As far as "fit and finish" is concerned i don't know how anyone can say its "way up" because they havent Sold any yet!!
Bit like going to a display home and seeing the fantastic finishing job, everyone knows its done that way to sell off, but in reality you know the home they build for you wont be as good..

[Danny]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Astra is opel? Isnt it?

Did you also know that the Volvo Shares the same platform as the Focus. Volvo Built on Focus platform, Focus shares Volvo Engine. Ford Owns volvo etc etc.

The point here was that the V8's in the COMMODORES (so not Focus, or Astra, or Volvo or anything you commodore troglodytes decide to use in your immature knee jerk arguments) are a Chevy engine, that means NOT originating out of a holden!

The point that was made, was that the Falcon's engines are all built and Designed here (WIth exception of the 220kW Ghia V8 I think) for Falcons. Why Focus, and Volvo needed to be brought into this I will never know.

Anyways, don't ya'll have your own Commodore forums to go to?

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Danny

Did you also know that the Volvo Shares the same platform as the Focus. Volvo Built on Focus platform, Focus shares Volvo Engine. Ford Owns volvo etc etc.

Yep just like Chev owns Holden. How is it any different?

I don't get why so many people get up Holden's a**, for using Chev engines, when Chev owns Holden anyway.

[kinksta]

i dont get why so many holden fans go through ford forums just to argue crap. go back to your sites and whinge there. this is a ford forums and we will discuss it from our point of veiw. personally i like the VE, but if i didnt i wouldn't go over to the great site ls1.com and argue everything that i dont agree with...

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by kinksta

i dont get why so many holden fans go through ford forums just to argue crap. go back to your sites and whinge there. this is a ford forums and we will discuss it from our point of veiw. personally i like the VE, but if i didnt i wouldn't go over to the great site ls1.com and argue everything that i dont agree with...

It's not arguing, when everything that has been said, from both point of views, is fact.

[Laminge]

Now Now...

Most of us respect the what the market is putting out, and have a interest in its discussion.

[kinksta]

i think/know alot of people would agree with me nevertheless....

[Laminge]

Aye they may!

but alas, this is not what this thread is about, there are plenty of other ford based forums if you feel this one doesnt suit your forum experience.

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by kinksta

i think/know alot of people would agree with me nevertheless....

I don't either. If you don't welcome 'opposition' input then feel free to leave. We should be car enthusiasts as well as ford enthusiasts.

[kinksta]

no its great, really good infact, there are just a few who ruin it.... but im over it!

Originally Posted by XA-Coupe

I don't either. If you don't welcome 'opposition' input then feel free to leave. We should be car enthusiasts as well as ford enthusiasts.

mate i am more a car enthusiast than a ford enthusiast. hell if i had the money do you really think i would be in a ford?? hehe, but because i have a ford, i go on ford sites for help and information. but hey each to there own.

[steen]

Originally Posted by kinksta

hell if i had the money do you really think i would be in a ford??

Hmmm. Prior to picking up my XR6, I considered numerous prestige options & even have access to a fully FBT paid BMW 530i, but you sometimes can't beat perceived bang/buck! The BMW is sitting in my parking spot in Sydney... That's why the VE package/direction as a whole will be great for the Aus auto industry.

[kinksta]

yea well i am 20, got the car last year, for the money it was what i was after. what i would do for a merc CLS amg!!! as in the one on bloody top gear last night!!! or a typhoon, if i didnt have that money lol. oh well one day...

[steen]

Hehe, Merc... I budgetted for a low 100k option & ended up with the 530i. The BMW boys were fabulous. I also considered the E350. Merc dealers were take-it-or-leave-it, & with options was $140k. For various reasons, I couldn't get an Audi A6.

The difference was enough to get the XR6, too... ;)

(Sorry for OT).

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Danny

Did you also know that the Volvo Shares the same platform as the Focus. Volvo Built on Focus platform, Focus shares Volvo Engine. Ford Owns volvo etc etc.

The point here was that the V8's in the COMMODORES (so not Focus, or Astra, or Volvo or anything you commodore troglodytes decide to use in your immature knee jerk arguments) are a Chevy engine, that means NOT originating out of a holden!

The point that was made, was that the Falcon's engines are all built and Designed here (WIth exception of the 220kW Ghia V8 I think) for Falcons. Why Focus, and Volvo needed to be brought into this I will never know.

Anyways, don't ya'll have your own Commodore forums to go to?

Yes and that the Iosis concept was using the RX-8 to yes yes. I'm not dum thank you. Not that you said i was just wanted to point that out.
American truck engine with Mustang heads, Guess it's a delivery assemble motor?. Holden could do that to
I bet you were the kid that played cricket and took the ball and bat home in the ****'s

Originally Posted by kinksta

i dont get why so many holden fans go through ford forums just to argue crap. go back to your sites and whinge there. this is a ford forums and we will discuss it from our point of veiw. personally i like the VE, but if i didnt i wouldn't go over to the great site ls1.com and argue everything that i dont agree with...

Seems like when other have views other then there own it's the old go back to where you came from. That really works now a days in our multicultural country.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

American truck engine with Mustang heads, Guess it's a delivery assemble motor?. Holden could do that to:

And yes they do do just that. WIth the Smelloytec 3.6's :

The original concept and first Boss 290 test motors were all built here regardless of where the components came from (Its like me saying the commo is Jap and Korean becasue thats where many of the parts came from). My point is BOSS 290 is unique to australia. was designed here, Its built here, and used only here in its current form. Don't get me started on the 4.0 Litre, Thats even more a proud aussie achievement.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Yep just like Chev owns Holden. How is it any different?

I don't get why so many people get up Holden's a**, for using Chev engines, when Chev owns Holden anyway.

Actually, GM owns Holden, who also owns Chev, etc.. etc...

Anyways, back on topic... a high performance V8 diesel would be a good response to the VE...

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by au3 chaser

Actually, GM owns Holden, who also owns Chev, etc.. etc...

I always thought that Chev brought Holden, years ago????

Anyway yeah, it's nothing important.

Carry on... ;)

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

American truck engine with Mustang heads, Guess it's a delivery assemble motor?.

5.4L F Series Truck Block... Yep
Mustang Heads... Nope as far as i know these heads hadn't been used on any Engine untill the Boss Series V8 was released although they do have a very similar design to the Cobra R heads.

Delivery to Assemble motor... Nope far from it, a huge number of locally sourced componants are inside the Boss Engines.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

5.4L F Series Truck Block... Yep
Mustang Heads... Nope as far as i know these heads hadn't been used on any Engine untill the Boss Series V8 was released although they do have a very similar design to the Cobra R heads.

Delivery to Assemble motor... Nope far from it, a huge number of locally sourced componants are inside the Boss Engines.

What I thought, but didn't wanna say until I was Backed up by someone else. And AU yes you are right, GM owns Holden.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Control Blade better then BMW? Is this the Ford Focus Control blade we are talking about here?.

VZ Already had state of the art brakes (ABS, BA, EBA, EBD, ESP, CBC). VE now has ESP on all Sedan models standard.
Theme design interiors? Are we going anywhere with that? If we are talking about the colour inserts in the interior then you should know this was a feature way back in many commodore models including HSV.
Power upgrades 5 kw isn't a reaction 10-15kw is a reaction. But if we are talking open about reactions, Do you believe the magic number of the BF 190 was a reaction to Alloytech 190?. (You would say no).
DSC = Already on VZ.. (ABS, BA, EBA, EBD, ESP, CBC)
How about Holden introduces 5 speed auto, Ford Reacts with a 6 speed auto.
Holden introduces a 6 speed manual, Takes ford oh god how many years to respond?.
What makes you think holden needs to react to the I6T? Holden had a real performance Coupe, Ford yet to react, (And it will return).
Lost DNA? For the first time it's Holden's own DNA in this car. Not a rebuilt model of anything else.
ICC? TFT? Took Ford years to ad Trip computer dash it goes on and never ends.

But all this **** aside it's still how it drives will be the main focus, It's build quality is second to none now. It's on a new level now it's not the old VT here.

I don't see the here there your talking about. I find it if it being nit picked at it's being brought down to make it less of a jump ahead of the BF. Time will really tell on this.

And thats my opinion :eclipsee_

What I have said is that Ford have done very well over the years to bridge the gap to the point where VE isn't bringing a hell of a lot to the party that is a huge step from where Falcon is now. Now according to my email you didn't want to turn this into Holden V Ford thing, which is fair enough by me as most around here know I do give Ford a hard time and I give credit where it is due to Holden. Did you lose your 20cents?

Some of the points you seem to not understand. Ford introduced two dash designs in the AU. It has nothing to do with two tone interiors. Have you not read Holden speak on interior themes yet? One upmarket for the luxury cars and one for the basic cars. Holden have found an innovative way to provide multiple theme, cost effectively.

The Falcon found its way to Europe in the form of a XR6T and then later to the USA. While it was in Europe several of the car magazines compared and reviewed the car. One publication of whom the name escapes me at the moment, tests cars in a particular manner. When it came to suspensions the XR6 surpassed either a 5 or 3 series BMW which they regarded as the benchmark at the time. 65 to 67 rings a bell but don't ask me to explain what those numbers mean as its a few years ago now. While Holden and their supporters make claims the Falcon has been around long enough to have actually backed them up and on technical merit does rather well. Out of interests the areas it didn't do well in were quality of plastics and fitment.

None of this is to be taken as derogatory against the new comer as it will and should be good, very good, but to actually get a step above the competition is not going to be easy from this point on. To do so will require massive investment that this market will have a hard time justifying. Design is going to be critical and on this front the VE is presenting confused DNA.

The issue I was talking about has been Ford gradual positioning of the CURRENT Falcon. We, I in particular, at times have been very critical of where Ford have been with product development and the rate at which upgrades or content are improved. Its time to reflect and think about in real terms how a continuous improvement has truly bridged the gap to what could have been a very dominate position for the long time market leader. It still might end up being that way but I suspect Ford might just be breathing a bit easier right now. The point being made is not so much how long either side has taken; it is that Holden have actually raised the VE to ground where the Falcon already sits in many areas, at least on paper. Remember the point being what has to be done from the Ford side, specifically FPV to respond to VE. Part of FPV’s response is what Ford give them to start with. In this early stage the products that FPV have influence over are the XR6T XR8 and the dedicated FPV cars. Ford gets credit for their continuous upgrades that have (on paper) positioned the product favourably. There doesn’t seem to be too much innovation that Ford haven’t got covered and that is a positive start to any response.

[steen]

Originally Posted by HSE2

...it is that Holden have actually raised the VE to ground where the Falcon already sits in many areas, at least on paper.

God I hope not. VE better be a hellavalot better than BF. Something tells me it is... I agree with most other sentiments, but Ford Australia have unique constraints. Along with FPV, they've executed particularly well given the current landscape.