High Performance Cars And P Platers

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by Chronicle

Studies show that you are in fact youi are affected by alochol at 0.05%, well, you must be or everyone would be allowed to drive at that level. So what the Governments is doing is laying down for the drunks in our society, and letting some drive drunk, but not others. 0.00% for everyone, I say!!

That is something I'm gonna agree with here. Especially this point...

Originally Posted by Chronicle

...youi are affected by alochol at 0.05%, well, you must be or everyone would be allowed to drive at that level...

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Chronicle

So what you are saying is that a pedestrian is going to bounce off you car and survive at 100k's the sames as at 40k's Oh' for christ sake give me a break!!!
Firstly you don't get booked for 103, you get booked for 104 or greater.

Secondly most cars have a 5-10% error built into their speedo, this is the maximum requirement under ADR's.

And most speedo read lower than the actual limit.

So lets look at an example of a car with a 10% error.

At 100k's on their speedo, they are "really" doing 91k's, by the radar - True??

So for the radar to pick them up at 104, then they would have to be doing about 114 by the cars speedo - True???

My Fairmont Ghia has about a 4% error, so I set my speed by the trip meter, so when I am doing about 104 by the speedo, I am "really" doing 100k's, so for me to get booked at 104, then I would have to be doing 109 by the speedo, then I deserve to get booked.

If I was a general lay-person, then I wouldn't know that my cars speedo was inaccurate so as far I am concerned I am doing 109.

Sorry, but I totally disagree there. Getting booked at 109 km/h, you say you deserve it? Is that on a relatively safe 3-lane road like the W Ring Rd, or a windy road out in the bush or the Great Ocean Rd? I tell you what, if I did anywhere near 100km/h on some sections of road as the posted limit, I wouldn't be posting this message right now.

Modern cars are quite capable of travelling at over 130km/h SAFELY on some of our roads . In fact, at that speed on the Hume Hwy in 6th gear is an absolute dawdle. The limit should be increase to 130km/h there so that overtaking of trucks that drive over 110km/h could be negotiated safely.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Sorry, but I totally disagree there. Getting booked at 109 km/h, you say you deserve it? Is that on a relatively safe 3-lane road like the W Ring Rd, or a windy road out in the bush or the Great Ocean Rd? I tell you what, if I did anywhere near 100km/h on some sections of road as the posted limit, I wouldn't be posting this message right now.

I am NOT discussing the quality of the roads, you are right in that reagrd, I am however talking about breaches of the law, whether you like them or not. LAws are there for everyone, otherwise our society's would be like some lawless countries around the world.

Our cars and some of our roads are quite capable of travelling at over 130km/h SAFELY. In fact, at that speed on the Hume Hwy in 6th gear is an absolute dawdle. The limit should be increase to 130km/h there so that overtaking of trucks that drive over 110km/h could be negotiated safely.

If the limit is 110 WHY in **** would you be overtaking them???????

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Chronicle

I am NOT discussing the quality of the roads, you are right in that reagrd, I am however talking about breaches of the law, whether you like them or not. LAws are there for everyone, otherwise our society's would be like some lawless countries around the world.

If the limit is 110 WHY in **** would you be overtaking them???????

Because I can do so SAFELY. I wouldn't want to be hovering in the lane next to them particularly as they slow rapidly on inclines nor would I want to be tailgated by them on downhill sections. That's the system for ya! Bugger the posted limits, I'm more interested in self preservation!

[TheSneakiness]

Right, this is going too far now.

Yes, we have speed limits, who actually obeys them religiously? Hell, Bruce Highway, QLD, the only cars not going 110km/h (Limit) are family cars towing caravans, body trucks with huge amounts of crap on them and tourists who don't know the area.

Everyone else is going quicker than 110km/h. I sit on 115, which is cruising speed in the ute, and still get overtaken by everything else. Don't tell me that they aren't exceeding the limit by at least 20km/h.

EDIT - I'm gonna keep going here. Do these guys get pulled over for doing 130km/h in a 110 zone? Hell no. You can't believe everything the government spits out about road safety, most of it is garbage.

If the government actually cared about the safety of its people, it would pour money into fixing the f*ckin roads, not pouring money into trying to scaremonger the average Australian by making ads that show people dying in accidents for going over the speed limit.

[xdc351]

Originally Posted by Chronicle

Firstly you don't get booked for 103, you get booked for 104 or greater.

Secondly most cars have a 5-10% error built into their speedo, this is the maximum requirement under ADR's.

And most speedo read lower than the actual limit.

So lets look at an example of a car with a 10% error.

At 100k's on their speedo, they are "really" doing 91k's, by the radar - True??

So for the radar to pick them up at 104, then they would have to be doing about 114 by the cars speedo - True???

My Fairmont Ghia has about a 4% error, so I set my speed by the trip meter, so when I am doing about 104 by the speedo, I am "really" doing 100k's, so for me to get booked at 104, then I would have to be doing 109 by the speedo, then I deserve to get booked.

If I was a general lay-person, then I wouldn't know that my cars speedo was inaccurate so as far I am concerned I am doing 109.

You are right and wrong there. There is a 10% +/- allowance in the ADR's, so you can be going 110 and your speedo can show 100, hell even if your speedo is 5% out you still get fined.

Thats assuming your game enough to spend 100% of your time watching a variable device instead of watching the bloody road in front of you.

And I don't think Fairmiont99 is refering to doing 100kmh through a school zone, but it has been proven that lower speed limits do NOT save lives.

About time you woke up to the wool the government is pulling over your eyes. I've seen the research that backs their 'wipe of 5' campain and it wouldn't hold honey, let alone water.

[xdc351]

Originally Posted by Chronicle

And while I am on my high horse, what about 0.05% BAC, why do people who have had their licences be allowed to drive drunk, when P & L Platers, Truck & Bus drivers are not allowed to.

Studies show that you are in fact youi are affected by alochol at 0.05%, well, you must be or everyone would be allowed to drive at that level. So what the Governments is doing is laying down for the drunks in our society, and letting some drive drunk, but not others. 0.00% for everyone, I say!!

At .05 in Victoria you are fined. The maximum leagal BAC is .049.

Is it that hard to research from up there on that high horse?

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Supa R00

One thing i wanna know is How the hell can all u guys afford these cars at 19,20 years old!?!?! BA GT's, XR8's, XR6 & T's... im 18 and could barely afford to pay for my ed xr6 working p/t and going to uni...... sheesh some ppl have too much money!!

agreed here aswell dunno how u guys afford these cars i want an EL XR and im doin my sums to afford 1 and a NA BA XR6 is double the price of wat i want

[Feathers]

Originally Posted by TuffEDXR

agreed here aswell dunno how u guys afford these cars i want an EL XR and im doin my sums to afford 1 and a NA BA XR6 is double the price of wat i want

Quite simply, I worked my butt off for four and a half years.
I still managed to go out with friends, run and maintain the XD, as well as pay the bills I needed to, but most of what I earned I saved.

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

There are too many complications and billions of dollars to lose. There goes the entire performance and import/export vehicle market.

No one ever stated exported cars had to have speed limiters. Australia can make it a australian spec. and still have them manufactered without for the overseas market.

[donno]

Originally Posted by Chronicle

Great statement of fact, and I agree with the sentiment of the statement, however why has the homicide rate by gun dropped by 60% since the introduction of the gun laws. Mind you that law was introduced Nationally as the result of ONE persons stupidity, and his name was Martin Bryant.

Bit OT, but it was more like 10%, and it was a trend started back in about 1989, whilst armed robbery and other viotlent crimes rised by about 30% after 1994. Criminals are criminals because they break the law, what makes you think they'd obey this one? But you're right regarding Martyn Bryant, it was only one person (plus the firearms he used were once registered as going through a government buyback scheme!).

Back on topic, I totally agree with 0.00 for BAC. Even after a light beer most people alter their behavior.

As to what AUII_XLS_Ute, I remember driving on the Bruce just out of gympie doing 110 (100 zone), and a big line up of cars behind me flashing their lights trying to get me to speed up.

Also everytime I have a close shave with a flash for cash, the thing is always sitting at the bottom of a long hill, on a stretch that is wide, multilaned and pretty much desert of obstacles or notable dangers (side turnings, houses etc). My **** it improves safety, moreso the government's pockets. How is charging some poor bugger on the way to work doing 67 for about 4 seconds going to save lives?

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by donno

Amen!

I would rather be shot with A 22 THAN A 303
That is the argument here.
Less likley damage will be bad as the 303!

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by AUII_XLS_Ute

Right, this is going too far now.

Yes, we have speed limits, who actually obeys them religiously? Hell, Bruce Highway, QLD, the only cars not going 110km/h (Limit) are family cars towing caravans, body trucks with huge amounts of crap on them and tourists who don't know the area.

Everyone else is going quicker than 110km/h. I sit on 115, which is cruising speed in the ute, and still get overtaken by everything else. Don't tell me that they aren't exceeding the limit by at least 20km/h.

EDIT - I'm gonna keep going here. Do these guys get pulled over for doing 130km/h in a 110 zone? Hell no. You can't believe everything the government spits out about road safety, most of it is garbage.

If the government actually cared about the safety of its people, it would pour money into fixing the f*ckin roads, not pouring money into trying to scaremonger the average Australian by making ads that show people dying in accidents for going over the speed limit.

Well for starters I would be one that sits on the speed limit on the bruce highway. as for not enforcing it what are you talking about, OFTEN you will see them sit under the bridges with speed traps. Revenue raising? Perhaps, but if you don't speed you don't get caught!!!!!!

[Psycho Chicken]

I know I'm going off topic, but if you can gobble up one set of statistics the government **** over to make themselves feel good, you can gobble up the rest.

Originally Posted by Chronicle

Great statement of fact, and I agree with the sentiment of the statement, however why has the homicide rate by gun dropped by 60% since the introduction of the gun laws. Mind you that law was introduced Nationally as the result of ONE persons stupidity, and his name was Martin Bryant.

Homocide by firearm 1996 was at 99 cases. In 2001 you have 49. Sure that's a 50% drop, but you have to take into account the 35 people at Port Arthur, which hasn't happened since. 99 - 35 is 64, which is about average.

Murder rate has remained the same, give or take. Want to check up on armed robbery figures while you're at it? Firearm assualt figures?

More to the point the weapons he used were illegal at the time anyway.

[donno]

Originally Posted by Yaw

I would rather be shot with A 22 THAN A 303
That is the argument here.
Less likley damage will be bad as the 303!

Actually, I'd rather someone shooting at me with the 303. 99% of people I know who own them us old Ex army ammo, which is extremely innacurate, and prone to misfires. Also nearly all of the ones left only have open sights, there are alot more accurate rifles to put a scope on, its just a waste of money. The majority of .22's I've seen with a decent marksman behind it can put 5 shots in the size of a 20c piece at 100m, a 303 you'd lucky to get it within 6 inches. A .22 is also a lot lighter rifle, hence its easier to sight up a moving target compared to a full wood 303 which is a heavy bugger to swing around. How do I know all this? I've been hunting and target shooting since I was 12. This brings me to a point. People immediately assume because somethings bigger and more powerfull, its more dangerous. This is not a fact. Politicians think they are smarter then the average citizen, but really don't know squat. Maybe if they listened to the people who knew the facts before they acted, we wouldn't have alot of problems society has today.

Well this applies to both cars and firearms (will be last post on the topic, we're going off the thread's purpse. If you want to keep debating feel free to start a new one, I'll be there). You're not going to be shot by a law abiding citizen. Law abiding citizens abide by the law, criminals don't. Criminals use firearms against people, law abiding citizens don't. If you create a law making it illegal to have certain types of firearms, law abiding citizens follow them, criminals don't. Law abiding citizens do by the law, they give up their sport and hobbies, criminals keep their guns and keep causing crime. In the end nothing is achieved, except medicare loosing out on $500 million, which would have saved 10 times the people supposedly saved by these laws. To top it off there is more firearms in the country now then before 1996.

Same can be said for Hi Po cars. Law abiding citizens will drive safely and curteosly. A criminal who doesn't obey the law doesn't give a stuff, he just keeps breaking it. He'll keep his Hi Po car and tear up the streets and other people. A law abiding citizen drives sensibly and enjoys his passion without risking others.

Problem is when you ban something, you turn law normally law abiding citizens away from the law in order to keep their passion. What was once controllable, now isn't. You could have offered drag strips, motorkhanas(spelling?), track days, and kept that sort of business off the streets, but instead you have forced it underground, away from the boundaries of the law and safety.

There's an old saying from back in the days of American prohibition: "The only thing prohibition creates is a black market". Its allready happened. People in this very thread have admitted that they drive cars outside of power to weight restrictions etc. Maybe if the law was say you can drive Hi Po cars, but first you must do a series of advanced driving courses addressing skills and attitudes. Its just an example, not a solution so don't flame me for it, but people wouldn't be forced into illegal dangerous ways to enjoy their passions, but they instead do it in a manner where it is controlled within the limits of the law. Unfortunately the politicians way of solving a problem is ban it, not cure the source of the problem, and alot of smart people unfortunately have the same attitude.

Do I believe that you should have a firearms licence before you can purchase a firearm? Hell yes. You go through safety course etc, that prepare you for such a responsibility, much like an advanced driving course for a car. Should we just keep tightening laws that restrict our hobbies? No, because it turns people away from responsibility and the law.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by donno

Do I believe that you should have a firearms licence before you can purchase a firearm? Hell yes. You go through safety course etc, that prepare you for such a responsibility, much like an advanced driving course for a car. Should we just keep tightening laws that restrict our hobbies? No, because it turns people away from responsibility and the law.

Think about it, cars cause more death than firearms yet it's a million times harder to get a firearms licence.

So why aren't driver's licences as tightly restricted? Probably due to the fact half the people applying for them would give up.

[XRQTOR]

[QUOTE=[b]Supa R00[/b]]

One thing i wanna know is How the hell can all u guys afford these cars at 19,20 years old!?!?! BA GT's, XR8's, XR6 & T's... im 18 and could barely afford to pay for my ed xr6 working p/t and going to uni...... sheesh some ppl have too much money!!
QUOTE]The black market, i import people who make drugs. I can make twice as much as drug and people smuggler's.


Work mate, i work 55-6o hours a week monday to friday only. Only on $17 an hour so nothing fancy.

[Yaw]

You guys are missing the entire point of the annalogy.
Yes we all know smaller less powerful cars can go fast and they too can be involved in accidents, no one is debating that.

I remember the very first V8 I ever drove, I was test driving a HT Broughm with a 308, stock standard. I was not even trying to spin the wheels around the corner, it just happened when I took off. That kind of power is what makes high performace vehicles unpredictable in P platers hands., Ok I don't want all the retaliation that "I've been driving one and never had an accident"
Well, I am glad that is the case. However Having said that when I first got into my POS MK1 Cortina for me to spin the wheels I actually had to work for it to happen. I personally think 3 years experience driving a lower powered car is the best form of experience before jumping into a car that can do things without trying. You by that stage have more respect for the power than the average teenage P Plater. I would even go further and suggest rather than a restriced car list perhaps an "allowed car list"would be of more use. Less loop holes.
I know that aint gunna be popular but its my opinion.

[donno]

Originally Posted by Yaw

You guys are missing the entire point of the annalogy.
Yes we all know smaller less powerful cars can go fast and they too can be involved in accidents, no one is debating that.

I remember the very first V8 I ever drove, I was test driving a HT Broughm with a 308, stock standard. I was not even trying to spin the wheels around the corner, it just happened when I took off. That kind of power is what makes high performace vehicles unpredictable in P platers hands., Ok I don't want all the retaliation that "I've been driving one and never had an accident"
Well, I am glad that is the case. However Having said that when I first got into my POS MK1 Cortina for me to spin the wheels I actually had to work for it to happen. I personally think 3 years experience driving a lower powered car is the best form of experience before jumping into a car that can do things without trying. You by that stage have more respect for the power than the average teenage P Plater. I would even go further and suggest rather than a restriced car list perhaps an "allowed car list"would be of more use. Less loop holes.
I know that aint gunna be popular but its my opinion.

I understand where you're going, but the thing is as I said, even with power restrictions, people are ignoring them and still driving the powerfull cars. Laws banning things only work in ideal worlds where everyone obeys the law, which is never going to happen. I wish the world was that easy, but it aint. You are never going to stop people from breaking the law, so why not make constructive, controlled alternatives?

There's also another saying I'd like to bring out at this time: "Make something idiot proof, you in turn build a bigger idiot". If you just keep banning stuff because its dangerous, people become increasingly complacent, and think that being on the right side of the law makes everything safe. People will think my 4 cylinder is legal to drive, therfore I can drive like a tool and be safe because its within the law. Heck look at all the tools in lancers and excells. If you keep taking away the need for someone to be responsible in their own right, the more irresponsible a person they become. In turn new harsher laws are created. Then we'll be driving 2 cylinder soapboxes, and the cycle begins again.

BTW: Sorry about going out on a tangent with the firearms, its a very passionate topic to me

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by donno

I understand where you're going, but the thing is as I said, even with power restrictions, people are ignoring them and still driving the powerfull cars. Laws banning things only work in ideal worlds where everyone obeys the law, which is never going to happen. I wish the world was that easy, but it aint. You are never going to stop people from breaking the law, so why not make constructive, controlled alternatives?

There's also another saying I'd like to bring out at this time: "Make something idiot proof, you in turn build a bigger idiot". If you just keep banning stuff because its dangerous, people become increasingly complacent, and think that being on the right side of the law makes everything safe. People will think my 4 cylinder is legal to drive, therfore I can drive like a tool and be safe because its within the law. Heck look at all the tools in lancers and excells. If you keep taking away the need for someone to be responsible in their own right, the more irresponsible a person they become. In turn new harsher laws are created. Then we'll be driving 2 cylinder soapboxes, and the cycle begins again.

BTW: Sorry about going out on a tangent with the firearms, its a very passionate topic to me

*ROFL*

So sorry, it did not take long for someone to bite.
Who said MY list had more than Nikki's or Suzuki Ridiculos Boys on it, well maybe one more
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=7033

Ok thats funny, but in all seriousness. Maybe 100 kw is enough for a p plater.

[Psycho Chicken]

So what, they can drive around in a FWD 100 kw thing for 3 years then jump into a 5 litre plus RWD V8 and have no idea what to do the moment the rear wheels break traction around a corner?

[Sprint_ED]

to be honnest at the moment i think the laws are ok of 125kw per tonne or 3.5 litres per ton, i think the only problem is there is no enforcement of the law cos like yeah u get 2 tone trucks with a bog stock 302 or yeah a gt or wumthing worked etc u jaut cant say ban v8s or turbos etc if the law was enforced, then the current problems wouldnt be happening

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by xdc351

At .05 in Victoria you are fined. The maximum leagal BAC is .049.

Is it that hard to research from up there on that high horse?

Is there need for personal attacks????

Personal attacks only inform the reader of the authors lower than normal IQ, are you one of these authors?

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

So what, they can drive around in a FWD 100 kw thing for 3 years then jump into a 5 litre plus RWD V8 and have no idea what to do the moment the rear wheels break traction around a corner?

Well the P plater thing is what the vic roads is going with, I think more under 25 year olds, but I KNOW thats just never gunna happen. Phsyco, I really gotta say this, I love the mature arguments backed with facts that you bring up all the time.
But its not just the fact of a p plater. I have no factual evedence to back this but lets for argument sake say the majority of P Platers are 17-19 year olds. which I imagine is about right. I mean no offense to anyone here on the forums but there is a measure of maturity a 20-25 year old has over a 17-19 year old that feels invincible. Thats where a big difference lies I think mate.

[XRQTOR]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

So what, they can drive around in a FWD 100 kw thing for 3 years then jump into a 5 litre plus RWD V8 and have no idea what to do the moment the rear wheels break traction around a corner?

Play with the throttle, clutch in & bang second and let the ride start all over again. Hence why they should drive Ba's they have T/c.

[Sprint_ED]

Originally Posted by Yaw

Well the P plater thing is what the vic roads is going with, I think more under 25 year olds, but I KNOW thats just never gunna happen. Phsyco, I really gotta say this, I love the mature arguments backed with facts that you bring up all the time.
But its not just the fact of a p plater. I have no factual evedence to back this but lets for argument sake say the majority of P Platers are 17-19 year olds. which I imagine is about right. I mean no offense to anyone here on the forums but there is a measure of maturity a 20-25 year old has over a 17-19 year old that feels invincible. Thats where a big difference lies I think mate.

i agree with you there i had the ea falcon thought it was a pro stock and was always out to prove something now i own a sprint, which i got at age 20 i drive slot slower, dont dart in and out of traffic tailgate etc even though i have a v8 and a car with twice the power

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by Yaw

But its not just the fact of a p plater. I have no factual evedence to back this but lets for argument sake say the majority of P Platers are 17-19 year olds. which I imagine is about right. I mean no offense to anyone here on the forums but there is a measure of maturity a 20-25 year old has over a 17-19 year old that feels invincible. Thats where a big difference lies I think mate.

Yeah you're right. I'd put it down to seeing mates end up in hospital, seeing mates go flat broke after stacking a car, seeing them pour time, effort and money into a car only to wrap it round a pole, seeing them suffer with no licence, etc, etc.

You can't be taught maturity, you have to learn it. Perhaps showing p-platers around the TAC recovery centre will help, who knows.

But on the same hand I don't think putting all p-platers into 1.5 litre FWD hatchbacks will solve the problem. Sure it will slow heaps of them down and save a few lives, but it's only a matter of time before the dickheads discover macca's trays and the handbrake.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the 125kw per tonne thing, it's just hard to enforce. Sure you can calculate things from factory, but you can't factor in mods, wear on the engine, etc, etc. Face it, a hell of a lot of the cars involved in these accidents are modded to hell and back.

There has to be something that can be done in reguards to training, I couldn't believe how easy getting my p's was. Got my L's barely 10 months before. Had formal lessons in a manual for maybe 4 months, drove an auto the rest of the time Passed the test a week after getting out of army basic training, where I hadn't driven for 7 weeks. I had one formal lesson in the 2 months before I got my licence and drove for maybe 2 hours.

Phsyco, I really gotta say this, I love the mature arguments backed with facts that you bring up all the time.

haha seriously? I used to get into firearms debates all the time and thought lack of facts and stats was my weak point.

[xdc351]

Originally Posted by Chronicle

Is there need for personal attacks????

Personal attacks only inform the reader of the authors lower than normal IQ, are you one of these authors?

Woah, relax there buddy. You felt it nessesary to point out every perceved flaw in any of my arguments and even called my a arguments a '****' earlier.

Can't take as good as you give?

[Trevor 57]

We are all getting closer to agreeing here, that is a bit scary.

I posted here or in another thread about my beliefs on 18yo's and risk taking, I still stick by it.

I used to work in OH&S full time, and I did some research into "why" people go out of their way to hurt themselves, it applies in the workplace as much as it applies on the road.

[donno]

Yes younger males are more immature, I cannot deny the fact. But this adds to my point, being young, wreckless and rebelous, they don't obey such laws. That's why a compromised should be offered. You can drive a Hi Po car, providing you get the training. Say its a weekend course in driver training and getting the right attitude behind the wheel. So instead of young people just disobeying they law with no training, you have educated drivers with a good attitude.