All things Solar (merged threads)

[Benny D]

gday guys,
just wondering as you have said go big.. is there really any point in W.A.? as out FIT is 7c/kw.
would it be fairly similar if i just got a cheap, say 1.5 kw system just to cover the daytime hours? and would that be enough to cover the daytime hours? .

nothing too big runs durin the day, maybe a aircon when it gets installed but wont be often. as i work n stuff, when i get home at night i watch a bit of tv etc... and the FIT of 7c doesnt seem like it would be worth trying to cover the bill that way.

[poppa smurf]

to cover your daytime usage you would have to be at least equal to your use

I.E if you are paying $0.28c per kilowatt then you would need 4 times the $0.07c per kilowatt you would be paid

you would need to produce 4 kilowatt hours to equal the one kilowatt brought in

so assuming you use something like 10 kilowatts during the day then you would have to produce 40 kilowatts to cover it

given an average of 6 solar hours per day then you would need roughly a 6.5 kilowatt system

do your homework to make an informed decision

[mickyyyy]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

to cover your daytime usage you would have to be at least equal to your use

I.E if you are paying $0.28c per kilowatt then you would need 4 times the $0.07c per kilowatt you would be paid

you would need to produce 4 kilowatt hours to equal the one kilowatt brought in

so assuming you use something like 10 kilowatts during the day then you would have to produce 40 kilowatts to cover it

given an average of 6 solar hours per day then you would need roughly a 6.5 kilowatt system

do your homework to make an informed decision

Is this math to half the bill or to completely cover it with a 6.5kw unit?

[poppa smurf]

well that is where your homework comes into it

my maths were based on you using 10 kilowatts during your daylight hours (you asked how much to cover just your daytime use)

I made an assumption that you pay $0.28c per kilowatt for power that you import, (I have no idea as to what your tariff is at the moment but I just pulled a figure out of the air)

this gives $2.80 per day that you would need to cover

given that your feed in tariff is $0.07c per kilowatt that you generate then you would need to cover that $2.80 per day

the 6.5 kilowatt system should cover your daytime use.....6 hours x 6.5 kilowatts = 39 kilowatts per day.....39 kilowatts X $0.07c per kilowatt = $2.73

solar is not hard to understand but as I have been banging on about ad nauseam is that folks should get a minimal grasp on the workings of it

solar is not a magic pill that makes all power bills go away

if the sums are done correctly, and this is not hard to achieve, then the experience is a good one

get it wrong and it is an expensive exercise

ask lots of questions or read this thread right from the start

all info is in here

[prydey]

poppa - is that assuming a system where you sell all your produced energy to the grid and then buy it back? or is that the way they work in WA? i thought you used your own production and the excess went to the grid.

i'm assuming each state is different and i had heard they were looking to bring in those types of systems.


also read on another site that a system larger than 5kw is seen as a commercial fit out and different costs apply. again, not sure of which state this was. energex was mentioned so whichever state that is.... also, it was info off a forum (not that there is anything wrong with that) so all info i would suggest getting confirmed by your retailer and energy provider etc.

[poppa smurf]

ah! now here is a can of worms

when your immediate usage is low the power generated by your system will feed directly into your house, covering that load......usually lights, things on standby that type of thing

this is entirely dependant on the size of the system as to the load that can be drawn

basically the home systems are not designed to feed into the house but they will if the house load is low enough

a lot of power can actually be saved in this way

but assuming the load is higher than the generative power of the array then the power will be sold to grid and the higher draw must be purchased from grid

[Benny D]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

ah! now here is a can of worms

when your immediate usage is low the power generated by your system will feed directly into your house, covering that load......usually lights, things on standby that type of thing

this is entirely dependant on the size of the system as to the load that can be drawn

basically the home systems are not designed to feed into the house but they will if the house load is low enough

a lot of power can actually be saved in this way

but assuming the load is higher than the generative power of the array then the power will be sold to grid and the higher draw must be purchased from grid

thats sorta what i ment. would the 1.5kw system be enough to cover stuff on standby etc.. or would i be forced to "sell" it to the grid and at the same time buy it back at a higher rate?

if i am forced to sell it and re buy it at 4x the price then going solar is a retarded idea...

[mickyyyy]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

well that is where your homework comes into it

my maths were based on you using 10 kilowatts during your daylight hours (you asked how much to cover just your daytime use)

I made an assumption that you pay $0.28c per kilowatt for power that you import, (I have no idea as to what your tariff is at the moment but I just pulled a figure out of the air)

this gives $2.80 per day that you would need to cover

given that your feed in tariff is $0.07c per kilowatt that you generate then you would need to cover that $2.80 per day

the 6.5 kilowatt system should cover your daytime use.....6 hours x 6.5 kilowatts = 39 kilowatts per day.....39 kilowatts X $0.07c per kilowatt = $2.73

solar is not hard to understand but as I have been banging on about ad nauseam is that folks should get a minimal grasp on the workings of it

solar is not a magic pill that makes all power bills go away

if the sums are done correctly, and this is not hard to achieve, then the experience is a good one

get it wrong and it is an expensive exercise

ask lots of questions or read this thread right from the start

all info is in here

A 3 KW system will easily generate 10khw a day if position of roof is right and no shade to cover day time usage, so i dont see the point paying for a system that is double the capacity and double the outlay. The pay back period with a 6.5kw unit is about 11 years apposed to a 3kw which is half that time...

Benny D case is very much like mine as with 0.07 FIT but we use 7kw during the day so for both of us, the crappy FIT return is not worth us going a massive system to generate power to make money.

So with my math i dont see why going to a 6.5kw system as a general rule of thumb your paying $1500.00 for for each additional 1kw over a 3kw system.

Each state is different FIT and if the FIT is a good return then get a bigger system to make you money. If your FIT is low just like in NSW 0.07cents then not worth the extra outlay in my oppinion becuase, payback period is much longer and extra outlay upfront.

Imagine a couple years into your system and the government drop the FIT or reduce it so blows it out again... There are so many variables right now compared to when people bought there system 5 years ago...

[poppa smurf]

okay this is where my statement "can of worms" comes into it.......I'll try to keep it as simple as possible

I asked from the outset about immediate and daily usage......without knowing the total current draw of any appliances that are possibly on during the day I have to make assumptions

worst case scenario is that the current draw is greater than the 1.5 kilowatt system and that amount of power must be purchased in

first up lets dismiss a fallacy....a 3 kilowatt system will not generate 3 kilowatts ....

if the draw from the house exceeds the generative power of the system then the draw will be from the grid regardless of how much the system is producing at that moment in time

just producing a daily total of 10 kilowatts is not enough if your household draw exceeds the immediate productive power of the system

I must therefore assume all power is to be paid for......using the above math it is easily seen as being an expensive exercise......this was not the question

the question was "can I cover my daytime usage with a 1.5 kilowatt system" impossible to answer without ALL relevant information

I'll throw the question back......what is your daytime usage

what is your greatest single current draw item.....how often does it kick in, how long does it run.....what is your hourly current draw in watts

to answer this in a forum without any of the aforementioned knowledge is to fail

if a definitive answer is to be given then please supply us with all the above and THEN, and ONLY THEN can I give an answer that MAY be close

whether the expense is worthy or not is a decision for the purchaser.....not me

[mickyyyy]

I think a good math explanation should be put on the first post to aviod this coming up again.

I think it simply this; If your daily usage is 15kw a day based on your bill you then go read your meter 7am every morning and 6pm every night.

Do this for 7 days to get an average consumption for day use which is 7kw from 7am-6pm. Now you look for a system that produces what you need and go from there. If your FIT is a great return eg 0.40cents or more then consider a bigger system to make you some money...

Am i looking at this wrong? because all i can do is cover my day costs when the system is actually working and reduce my night costs by LED globes and what not.

[ute83]

Here guy's, have a read of this especially the part about net metering. http://www.sp-ausnet.com.au/?id=2301...25765C00802142

[xisled]

Originally Posted by ute83

Here guy's, have a read of this especially the part about net metering. http://www.sp-ausnet.com.au/?id=2301...25765C00802142

Net metering is when your house use the power first any excess goes into the grid and you get a FIT for putting it back into the grid. All houses in VIC are set on Net metering.

Gross metering is when your solar goes directly into the grid and you are paid a FIT for the power you have produced.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by mickyyyy

A 3 KW system will easily generate 10khw a day if position of roof is right and no shade to cover day time usage, so i dont see the point paying for a system that is double the capacity and double the outlay. The pay back period with a 6.5kw unit is about 11 years apposed to a 3kw which is half that time...

Benny D case is very much like mine as with 0.07 FIT but we use 7kw during the day so for both of us, the crappy FIT return is not worth us going a massive system to generate power to make money.

So with my math i dont see why going to a 6.5kw system as a general rule of thumb your paying $1500.00 for for each additional 1kw over a 3kw system.

Each state is different FIT and if the FIT is a good return then get a bigger system to make you money. If your FIT is low just like in NSW 0.07cents then not worth the extra outlay in my oppinion becuase, payback period is much longer and extra outlay upfront.

Imagine a couple years into your system and the government drop the FIT or reduce it so blows it out again... There are so many variables right now compared to when people bought there system 5 years ago...

The FIT in NSW is 0 cents. Only some retailers have a buy back.

http://www.myenergyoffers.nsw.gov.au...n-tariffs.aspx

[poppa smurf]

as i said....."can of worms"!

[ute83]

Originally Posted by xisled

Net metering is when your house use the power first any excess goes into the grid and you get a FIT for putting it back into the grid. All houses in VIC are set on Net metering.

Gross metering is when your solar goes directly into the grid and you are paid a FIT for the power you have produced.

Really...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by mickyyyy

I think a good math explanation should be put on the first post to aviod this coming up again.

I think it simply this; If your daily usage is 15kw a day based on your bill you then go read your meter 7am every morning and 6pm every night.

Do this for 7 days to get an average consumption for day use which is 7kw from 7am-6pm. Now you look for a system that produces what you need and go from there. If your FIT is a great return eg 0.40cents or more then consider a bigger system to make you some money...

Am i looking at this wrong? because all i can do is cover my day costs when the system is actually working and reduce my night costs by LED globes and what not.

i think what poppa smurf is also saying is, even if the system generates the required amount during the day, you will still be buying from the grid if at any particular moment in time you are using more than you are generating.

a 1.5kw system might well average up to 7kwh per day, but when you put the kettle on, for that minute or so that it is running, i guarantee you will be buying from the grid as the system probably won't be generating enough to cover it at that point in time, esp if it is early in morning.

this is where it gets confusing with 'daily averages' and actual usage patterns.

[prydey]

ok, just changing the subject slightly for a moment.

can panels be 'mixed and matched'?

i have the capacity to add 6 panels if i want to. i realise this is rarely done due to the price of the actual panels when sold separately.

disregarding price, if i did decide to add more, do i have to add more of the same type/brand/output etc? i have 190w panels currently. could i add 4 x 250, or 5 x 200 instead, or do i have to stick with 190w?

also, can brands be mixed and matched? or do i have to buy the same brand?

these are issues that i will likely never have to worry about but i'd just like to know all the same.

cheers

[mickyyyy]

Originally Posted by prydey

i think what poppa smurf is also saying is, even if the system generates the required amount during the day, you will still be buying from the grid if at any particular moment in time you are using more than you are generating.

a 1.5kw system might well average up to 7kwh per day, but when you put the kettle on, for that minute or so that it is running, i guarantee you will be buying from the grid as the system probably won't be generating enough to cover it at that point in time, esp if it is early in morning.

this is where it gets confusing with 'daily averages' and actual usage patterns.

That makes more sence to me now!!!

I need things explained to me as simple as possible

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by prydey

ok, just changing the subject slightly for a moment.

can panels be 'mixed and matched'?

i have the capacity to add 6 panels if i want to. i realise this is rarely done due to the price of the actual panels when sold separately.

disregarding price, if i did decide to add more, do i have to add more of the same type/brand/output etc? i have 190w panels currently. could i add 4 x 250, or 5 x 200 instead, or do i have to stick with 190w?

also, can brands be mixed and matched? or do i have to buy the same brand?

these are issues that i will likely never have to worry about but i'd just like to know all the same.

cheers

as far as I'm aware and from what experts have told me you must stay with panels of the same output.......I.E. 200 watt panels can be expanded but only with more 200 watt panels

brand I dont think matters that much......dont exceed the inverter too much though

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by xisled

The FIT in NSW is 0 cents. Only some retailers have a buy back.

http://www.myenergyoffers.nsw.gov.au...n-tariffs.aspx

And this may be changing in hte near future ... have heard from a few sources now that at least NSW will be changing so that FIT will equal what your energy supplier charges you to purchase from the grid ... so that means $0.28/kwh

Now to get some solid evidence on it.

This looks like it will be a uniform thing for all states as well from my understanding ... Govco is looking to standardise it across the board.

[poppa smurf]

at last a bit of common sense......I've always stated the export tariff should equal the import tariff

now if only they would apply a bit of that uncommon sense on "supply charge"...

[mickyyyy]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

And this may be changing in hte near future ... have heard from a few sources now that at least NSW will be changing so that FIT will equal what your energy supplier charges you to purchase from the grid ... so that means $0.28/kwh

Now to get some solid evidence on it.

This looks like it will be a uniform thing for all states as well from my understanding ... Govco is looking to standardise it across the board.

This sounds awesome!!!

So if anyone has a system already installed can they simply transfer to this FIT scheme???

[Mechan1k]

I think this is a case of everyone already with a system ... it will be an across the board uniformity change.

Unfortunately for those already on the 60+c rate ... they will be brought back into line with everyone else.

[Benny D]

so would it be wise to buy say a 4kw system now and hope this change happens?
and would the price of solar systems go back up it the FIT and useage charge be level?

[xisled]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

And this may be changing in hte near future ... have heard from a few sources now that at least NSW will be changing so that FIT will equal what your energy supplier charges you to purchase from the grid ... so that means $0.28/kwh

Now to get some solid evidence on it.

This looks like it will be a uniform thing for all states as well from my understanding ... Govco is looking to standardise it across the board.

Looking at past FIT I do not think the Govco will increase the FIT, no Govco so far has done this in any state, they are reducing this, every year.

Currently in Vic we have a SFIT scheme, this scheme is dollar for dollar. Example you pay 28 cents per KW you get 28 cents per kw back.
As of the 30th of Sep this year the Govco has put a cut off in place.

Basically any new systems that were eligible for the SFIT are not going to be able to get this.

As of 01/01/2013 in Vic the SFIT tariff is going to 8 cents. There will no longer be dollar for dollar buy back.

I am connected with all the Vic networks due to my work, and I can tell you I have been told or seen anything to support the above. I have also got some contact in the NSW market who said they have not been told about this, from when I worked for a retailer that was in the NSW market.

Also another reason why I do not think the Govco will increase the FIT, if we look at the Vic Gov figures for the PFIT tariff, the 66 cent buy back in Vic cost the Gov 22 million a year just for the buy back given to customers from retailers.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

And this may be changing in hte near future ... have heard from a few sources now that at least NSW will be changing so that FIT will equal what your energy supplier charges you to purchase from the grid ... so that means $0.28/kwh

NSW only just did a bi review that recommended 7-12c/kWh. I dont see them going back on that and giving us parity.

Of course, the review was flawed because it deferred to the power companies to provide the expert opinions on the infrastructure, whcih allowed them to claim their supply overheads as being relevant to domestic feed-in, which it largely is not (ie. why should my generated power attract the same overhead charge per kWh as the coal-fired power if mine is only going from my panels to my neighbour, not many kms).....

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by prydey

well done what size system?


on the subject of clouds and clear skies, during my reading around before getting solar, i read that having some clouds in the sky is actually the ideal as it helps disperse the suns rays... i spoke to my installers when they were putting it in and according to them, clear skies is best.

the thing is, the highest figures i have seen on my inverter has been on cloudy days where the sun isn't being impeded as such, not on clear sky days. today in adelaide its quite cloudy with the odd shower but when the sun pokes through, the inverter jumps up to 3500w+ (3.8kw of panels)

is there an absolute answer or does it depend on a range of factors? anyone know?

Rob, I've been watching my power generation with interest since you posed the question - I'm referring to the part of the quote about "cloudy days where the sun isn't impeded as such" here - I'm not talking about grey skies and overcast days, nor do I think are you.

My array faces NNW @ 30 degrees. I've noticed on some mornings prior to 10am that my system generates more power with "low fluffy clouds" (for want of a better term!) than on a blue sky day. I am only supposing here - but I'm thinking that the clouds reflect the sunshine back to the panels? Maybe that gives some creedence to what you've heard.

Cheers!

[prydey]

yes, its an interesting one.

in other news, my smart meter was installed thismoring. i was asleep (night shift) and forgot to tell the mrs to turn the solar back on. not that it would have mattered. pretty ordinary day here today so its not like it cost me anything.

my meter reading was 9kwh less than when the solar went on, but is still about 600kwh more than my previous bill, so i have one more bill to pay yet it would seem, but it should only be about half the norm.

[poppa smurf]

good news.....should now be able to see what it is doing in ernest

[prydey]

just thought i'd put this in here as well. FIT info for SA.

South Australia
The current South Australian Solar feed-in Scheme provides eligible net metered solar electricity customers with a FIT rate of 16cents/kWh. This scheme is open to new entrants until the 30th of September 2013.

In addition to the South Australia's Solar feed-in Scheme, the Essential Services Commission of South Australia (ESCOSA) has legislated that from the 27th of January 2012 eligible solar customers are also entitled to receive a Mandatory Retailer Payment from their electricity retailer.

The current Mandatory Retailer Payment is 9.8c/kWh (GST exclusive) and can be applied to both existing and new customers who join the South Australian Solar feed-in Scheme. The Mandatory Retailer Payment is determined until June 30th 2014 and increases each financial year to reflect the fair and reasonable value of exported electricity to electricity retailers.

this has probably already been posted before as well, but here's a sa gov link with all the rebate info.

http://www.sa.gov.au/subject/Water,+...feed-in+scheme


which reminds me i have to check with etsa (sa power network) what they put as my system capacity. hopefully it is recorded as a 5kw system so i can upgrade (unlikely but the option is there) without losing the FIT.