Ford plans to have a four-cylinder engine available on every car it sells by 2013. - Page 5

chevypower · 23-02-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bd737

I can't understand it - full sized sedans and station wagons did a great job as family vehicles before SUV's came about,...

As did the horse and cart. We should all be grateful for the Corolla. Sensible, practical, reliable. It's all anyone could ever need.

. Let's get this back on topic shall we?

Gobes32 · 23-02-2009, 07:58 PM

Anyone that has owned a territory will attest to the amount of space the car has, and how it comes in handy when you have a pram, baby seats, sports gear, toys and god knows what else in it. Why do we choose an SUV? Because it suits our needs. If i were 18 and single I would drive an XR6 Ute, plenty of room for a girlfriend and the motorbike goes in the back......

The problem Ford OZ faces (and other large rwd manufacturers) is that peoples mindsets are changing, how else do you explain Hilux constantly in the top 5 sales per month? There is now a large range of cars that will easily do what a large sedan will do, and in the case of territory and Hilux, it will do what the sedan does and then a lot more. When a consumers mindset changes, the manufacturers need to change with it or face extinction. If that means turbo 4 falcons, then so be it. You will not be forced to buy one.

I have said it before and I will say it again, It's all well and good to and moan about Ford considering scrapping the Falcon or putting a smaller motor in it, but not enough people buy it to keep going the way we are. And funnily enough, the people who whinge the most still drive an E- Series.........

mrbaxr6t · 23-02-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

That is ridiculous, people should be allowed to drive whatever the hell they like. You could be a nuisance to a Smart ForTwo. I drive a Silverado, it stops quickly, accelerates quickly, has very little body roll because the suspension is set up for payload. SUVs can be made the same way, doesn't stop quickly enough? Beef up the brakes. The reality is, none of these are the real reasons you don't like SUVs - it's the whole image thing, like you said at the start. Sorry, but I hate people dictating what everyone else should and shouldn't drive.

I am not dictating what people should and shouldn't drive I was expressing that the development of sedans IS NOT irrelevant, I have had a nissan patrol in the family (real 4wd) diesel intercooled turbo one - and despite being a fantastic car in the bush, in the city it was so impractical it wasn't funny, harder to park, harder to turn, very heavy clutch DRUNK the fuel and being a short wheelbase the cargo carrying capacity isn't much above that of a sedan. Lets not mention the cost of tyres for the effing thing and the fact it took a mother load of engine oil when it needed changing. Also this particular car had no ABS and buried the nose into the tar and locked up all four wheels flatspotting the expensive tyres if you ever need to stop in a hurry to avoid an obstacle. Bodyroll was tragic turning an off camber corner was scary. I am sorry but these vehicles belong in the bush not on the tarmac. An average sedan out brakes, out manoevers and kills them in the economy stakes. Part of the reasoning behind downsizing the aussie car is to make it more economical, sorry but SUV's just generally are not economical. - and the ride is quite harsh in a REAL offroader.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bd737

I can't understand it - full sized sedans and station wagons did a great job as family vehicles before SUV's came about, yet everyone now claims anything less than an SUV won't do. What's more demanding about a 21st century family lifestyle than one from the 60s/70s/80s/most of 90s?

Women only love SUV's because they're fashionable.

I am with you why do we need these things? wagons can carry just as much if that is your reasoning.

Also the SUVs that women seem to go for (in my area at least) are little more than trumped up front wheel drive hatchback type things (hyundai tucson springs to mind) what are these things really? if you break them down to their components they are basically a hyundai excel jacked up off the deck - people lower cars as it improves handling why would you jack one up? and sacrifice handling

:

Sorry but I think we will never agree. So lets agree to disagree. ok.

vanman_75 · 23-02-2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

I am with you why do we need these things? wagons can carry just as much if that is your reasoning. Also the SUVs that women seem to go for (in my area at least) are little more than trumped up front wheel drive hatchback type things (hyundai tucson springs to mind) what are these things really? if you break them down to their components they are basically a hyundai excel jacked up off the deck - people lower cars as it improves handling why would you jack one up? and sacrifice handling

for my mid sixty in laws,who couldn't get down in their pulsar anymore. they have the Tucson and 1 of its major points for nan was easy to park, great vis ,and ease of entry, doesn't have to bend down to put grandson into car seat, . don't drive fast enough to need handling ,and it will never need to do many ks so they wont care if it doesn't have Toyota reliability . not for me but my reasons for buying a particular vehicle will widely differ from you and anyone else its choice ,try a turbo 4 by all means but, laying the future on it being the only engine choice would be the end of the falcon imho

zetec · 23-02-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I have said it before and I will say it again, It's all well and good to and moan about Ford considering scrapping the Falcon or putting a smaller motor in it, but not enough people buy it to keep going the way we are. And funnily enough, the people who whinge the most still drive an E- Series.........

You my friend are a prophet. You nailed that last point.

**Fordman1** · 23-02-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetec

You my friend are a prophet. You nailed that last point.

Not a prophecy.............it's the truth.

The people who actually DO buy new cars are voting NOW with their chequebooks, and buying other cars... NOT a Falcon.

chevypower · 24-02-2009, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

Sorry but I think we will never agree. So lets agree to disagree. ok.

That's about the only thing you said that I can easily agree on. That is also why we all drive different cars, because we all have different needs and tastes. Wouldn't it be tragic if there was a law preventing you from driving what you like, because someone else thought it wasn't necessary? Or it didn't handle as well as the car they like to drive?

Daymoe · 24-02-2009, 07:39 AM

If they dump the NA 6 like some people where suggesting and just keep the I4T/I6T, wouldn't that get rid of another market, P platers?

mrbaxr6t · 24-02-2009, 11:44 AM

what an awesome point about the ones whining hardest driving Eseries cars astute observation that one!

and chevypower : we agree to disagree - I can agree with that

:

Gobes32 · 24-02-2009, 02:30 PM

The fact is, ever since we entered the global market in a true sense, i.e, tariffs dropped etc, Holden and Ford have slowly suffered a drop in market share and now, all of a sudden, the market share has gone into free fall. Ford can keep producing 17ookg cars with 4.0ltr motors BUT NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE BUY THEM!!!!!!!!!!! We are now the minority and the way things are going, a niche market. Holden and Ford are not big enough companies to sustain niche models.

How many people on this forum are in the market for a brand new FG? And how many are waiting for the inevitable crappy resale that will see them in a 2 year old Falcon for half it's initial price? You can bet your bottom dollar there are more people hanging out for the resale bargains.

I personally feel that Falcon is on it's last legs, if Focus is a huge success, and it should be, then that is the inevitable last nail in Falcon's coffin. Ford would much rather manufacture the Focus and Territory and send them around the world. It's the only way Ford Oz can survive........

Daymoe · 24-02-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

The fact is, ever since we entered the global market in a true sense, i.e, tariffs dropped etc, Holden and Ford have slowly suffered a drop in market share and now, all of a sudden, the market share has gone into free fall. Ford can keep producing 17ookg cars with 4.0ltr motors BUT NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE BUY THEM!!!!!!!!!!! We are now the minority and the way things are going, a niche market. Holden and Ford are not big enough companies to sustain niche models.

How many people on this forum are in the market for a brand new FG? And how many are waiting for the inevitable crappy resale that will see them in a 2 year old Falcon for half it's initial price? You can bet your bottom dollar there are more people hanging out for the resale bargains.

I personally feel that Falcon is on it's last legs, if Focus is a huge success, and it should be, then that is the inevitable last nail in Falcon's coffin. Ford would much rather manufacture the Focus and Territory and send them around the world. It's the only way Ford Oz can survive........

I'd buy one if I had the $39K for a manual FG XR6, the problem isn't the car for me, its the money haha.

Ohio XB · 24-02-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR_Strider_GuY

Hi mate,
You sound like you know your stuff and have some credible resources. I guess with the credit crunch people are focusing on fuel economy just like the early 80's.

However thinking realistically and more forecasting here just like 1986 when Ford introduced the 5.0L Windsor HO, when the economy pics up and people want real luxury and more power there is no reason why they cannot apply the eco-boost technology to a V8 if petroleum combustion still rules the roost. And also if people are prepared to pay for the petrol.

Thanks for the compliment. I do work for Ford here in Ohio and I have access to a LOT of company communications and publications as well as industry news. I also ask questions of the top brass (Fields, Kuzac, Kapp) from time to time and they always write me back, if they can comment on my inquiries. Sometimes I even get info that is ahead of being released, shall we say. As long as I stay "mum" on the subjects I am supposed to I keep their trust and get to hear more. ;) So that's why I am pretty vague sometimes.

Also, I am 44 so I have been around for a while and got to see how this went the first time.

Steve

chevypower · 24-02-2009, 06:21 PM

Ohio, do you know if mainstream F150 models (XLT, Lariat) will get the 6.2, 5.0, 3.5 EcoBoost... also do you know if Ford intends to keep the Expedition?

Gobes32 · 24-02-2009, 07:14 PM

Sort of related to this thread, over in the Territory forum there is a thread about diesel territorys spotted in testing.

Bossxr8 · 24-02-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daymoe

If they dump the NA 6 like some people where suggesting and just keep the I4T/I6T, wouldn't that get rid of another market, P platers?

If they dump the NA6 then the I6T will go with it, because the T is built in small numbers.

Ohio XB · 25-02-2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Ohio, do you know if mainstream F150 models (XLT, Lariat) will get the 6.2, 5.0, 3.5 EcoBoost... also do you know if Ford intends to keep the Expedition?

I don't know anyting about the 6.2 or the 5.0 and the F-150. I can't imagine the EcoBoost V6 NOT being in the mainstream F-150's.

Now, in the line of fuel efficiency for someone that wants an F-150 for occasionally hauling something, and for the appearance of a truck, and the command seating position, but only really just needs to get around town, but wants to be able to accelerate up to highway speed without taking all day, and to be able to pull out into traffic and get up to speed well............

....you will need to "rethink" what it takes to move a truck.

Ford has done away with the V6 for the 2009 truck because now they have a V8 with comparable fuel mileage, and Americans love our V8's in a truck. This satisfies the psychological aspect of most truck buyer's needs as far as power train goes.

Ok, so now we are getting V8's with the fuel mileage of a V6. Hhhmmm. The power of the V8 is just a little more than the V6, but not much. The 4.6, though it is a 3V head now, is a design that has been around for a while now. In this day and age of technology and the speed at which it accelerates it could be considered "outdated".

Likewise the methods for improving the economy of the V8 is also being utilized on the V6, improving it to, say the economy of a 4 cylinder?

The thing now is lots of power with small engines.......that can stand up over time. The amount of money you can save in material in building a larger engine can be used for building a more stout smaller engine for durability.

Looking at it this way, as Ford is, they are looking to see just how far the envelope can be pushed. I suspect a good part of the reason Ford is doing this now is because Derrick Kuzac took the reins off of the Engineers a few years ago, and since then Ford has been accelerating in innovation at break-neck speed.

I was given a few hypotheticals to "imagine" by Dan Kapp. I can't tell you what those were, but as I said, you will have to rethink how we picture truck powertrains. As I was reading this my jaw hit my keyboard.

When I had my friend build my first computer in 1995 it had a 1.6 GB hard drive, and I could save stuff on floppy disks that could hold 1.44 MB.

Right now I have a jump drive in my pocket that holds 4 GB.

Something like that.

Steve

chevypower · 25-02-2009, 11:25 AM

Thanks Ohio. I found this on Pickuptrucks.com regarding the Silverado. The next hybrid version could be a plug-in series hybrid. http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/02...d-pickups.html I think we could be looking at 50mpg+ on something like that.
In the near future for Ford though (in the F-series), could the EcoBoost technology have a 2.0L 4cyl replace the 4.2L V6 in the F150, with the 3.5 EB replacing the 5.4 - and even a 5.0 EcoBoost doing the job of the 6.8L V10 in the SuperDuty? Perhaps these engines can keep the Econoline alive also?

Walt Kowalski · 25-02-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

You guys are missing the point, Not enough people want large rwd sedans for them to be a viable manufacturing option anymore. We can scream as much as we want but at the end of the day we aren't buying enough of them. We are the minority and the majority always wins.........

Unfortunately you are probably right.

I just have nightmares about following 4 cyl Commodores in the 80's

I cannot see myself buying one but then again I went into a dealer in 05 to buy an XR8 and the dealer suggested i try the XR6T as well.

I got converted from the V8 so who knows.

Not me.

But the nightmares comtinue!

:

RPO83 · 25-02-2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

Thanks for the compliment. I do work for Ford here in Ohio and I have access to a LOT of company communications and publications as well as industry news. I also ask questions of the top brass (Fields, Kuzac, Kapp) from time to time and they always write me back, if they can comment on my inquiries. Sometimes I even get info that is ahead of being released, shall we say. As long as I stay "mum" on the subjects I am supposed to I keep their trust and get to hear more. ;) So that's why I am pretty vague sometimes.

Also, I am 44 so I have been around for a while and got to see how this went the first time.

Steve

Derrick is a great guy, I knew him from his work at FoE with the C/D and Focus work he did. What is Kapp doing now at Ford?

Tles · 26-02-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Anyone that has owned a territory will attest to the amount of space the car has, and how it comes in handy when you have a pram, baby seats, sports gear, toys and god knows what else in it. Why do we choose an SUV? Because it suits our needs. If i were 18 and single I would drive an XR6 Ute, plenty of room for a girlfriend and the motorbike goes in the back......

The problem Ford OZ faces (and other large rwd manufacturers) is that peoples mindsets are changing, how else do you explain Hilux constantly in the top 5 sales per month? There is now a large range of cars that will easily do what a large sedan will do, and in the case of territory and Hilux, it will do what the sedan does and then a lot more. When a consumers mindset changes, the manufacturers need to change with it or face extinction. If that means turbo 4 falcons, then so be it. You will not be forced to buy one.

I have said it before and I will say it again, It's all well and good to and moan about Ford considering scrapping the Falcon or putting a smaller motor in it, but not enough people buy it to keep going the way we are. And funnily enough, the people who whinge the most still drive an E- Series.........

The explanation for all this comes down to the way vehicles are purchased now versus even 3 years ago. New vehicle purchase is now mainly done through a fleet or company deal, and while you have more choice now, Falcon and Commodore are not fleet darlings anymore, excepting those fleets actually needing a Falcon wagon. Even private purchasers have moved to Territory, Prado or kluger at their expense. Hilux is a proven tradie special and needs zero explanation down the site or pub/tapas bar. Doesn't really matter how it's financed, unless you bought it with your own cash for private non tax deductible purpose only, then you make and accept the compromises to a point and drive it like you rent it, because you do, for 1-3 years until the next dip. A 4 cylinder Falcon would have a lot to do with getting under the enviro radar of some 20-30 something ladder climbing fleet managers than anything else.

New Cars are now considered by the majority of the general public to be just part of the 'package', usable and disposable. Until they are 2-7 years old and your looking for a good second hander that you really want to own, then all of a sudden you are wading past all the basic fllet spec crap to find the car or SUV you wish the company let you have in the first place.

Maybe Ford should just turn the new car showrooms into set term fully maintained vehicle rental shops and concentrate on building and speccing vehicles for the best ex rental sale price after 18, 24, 36 months etc. Probably make better money on claiming depreciation anyway.

Ohio XB · 27-02-2009, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Thanks Ohio. I found this on Pickuptrucks.com regarding the Silverado. The next hybrid version could be a plug-in series hybrid. http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/02...d-pickups.html I think we could be looking at 50mpg+ on something like that.
In the near future for Ford though (in the F-series), could the EcoBoost technology have a 2.0L 4cyl replace the 4.2L V6 in the F150, with the 3.5 EB replacing the 5.4 - and even a 5.0 EcoBoost doing the job of the 6.8L V10 in the SuperDuty? Perhaps these engines can keep the Econoline alive also?

Exactly how it will be done I don't fully know, though I do know the direction. Ford is looking to reduce it's carbon footprint emmensely as well as increase fuel mileage, and doing both without inconveniencing the driver.

Your thoughts are in the right direction though and it will be better than you expect.

Steve

Ohio XB · 27-02-2009, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPO83

Derrick is a great guy, I knew him from his work at FoE with the C/D and Focus work he did. What is Kapp doing now at Ford?

I know Derrick was involved in the Euro Focus of that day. I sent him some pictures of X series Falcons to suggest a few body lines for US cars. A couple pictures were of an orange XB and he pointed out that is his favorite color and that was why he introduced the Euro Focus he was involved with in that color. I haven't met him personally but what I see in video and in email exchanges he is a really nice guy.

What was the cause for your interaction with Derrick if I may ask? Or PM me if you prefer.

I don't remember his title off hand but Dan Kapp is the man that oversees engine development, I believe. He certainly has some hand in that because he is the one Derrick referred me to with questions I have about the stoutness of the EcoBoost V6. Dan was able to answer my questions in depth. Sounds like he has a staff of real engine nuts when I was told of things they've done to test the engine.

Steve

Ohio XB · 27-02-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Thanks Ohio. I found this on Pickuptrucks.com regarding the Silverado. The next hybrid version could be a plug-in series hybrid. http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/02...d-pickups.html I think we could be looking at 50mpg+ on something like that.
In the near future for Ford though (in the F-series), could the EcoBoost technology have a 2.0L 4cyl replace the 4.2L V6 in the F150, with the 3.5 EB replacing the 5.4 - and even a 5.0 EcoBoost doing the job of the 6.8L V10 in the SuperDuty? Perhaps these engines can keep the Econoline alive also?

I forgot to mention, the Econoline will not be able to meet rollover standards for 2012, that's one reason why it is going away.

Steve

chevypower · 28-02-2009, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

I forgot to mention, the Econoline will not be able to meet rollover standards for 2012, that's one reason why it is going away.

Steve

Not good! I think it's a lot cooler than the Transit, but it definitely needed an interior upgrade to bring it inline with the new F-series trucks.

Ohio XB · 28-02-2009, 09:29 AM

The interior was upgraded for the 2009 model year, even including a glovebox. You will notice it cannot compare to an F-150 though.

The Transit gets much better fuel mileage and from what I hear it rides nicer than an Econoline too. Economy of scale will come into play when the Transit replaces the Econoline helping with cost of all Transits.

Transit in Europe is now cheaper than in 1995, comparably equipped/ adjusted for inflation.

The base Econoline is heavier duty than a lot of businesses need, so they are paying extra for vehicle capability they cannot use.

UPS has been begging Ford to make the Transit available in the US for years.

Econoline is made in two models, base and extended (Not counting the myriad of configurations with windows, without windows, sliding door, dual side doors, etc.). Transit is made in 5 or 6.

The Econoline cut-a-ways for upfitting and bare chassis for RV's will still be made.

Steve

XR Martin · 28-02-2009, 10:15 AM

I remember hearing there is over 1million possible variations of the Transit. They drive good for what they are, the diesels go quite well (a bit too well in the wet) and are good on fuel (ave 10L/100km in my experience)
They arnt known for their reliability though, I think the newer ones are better. But from speaking to people reliability isnt a strong point of most Euro vans.