It's official - 6.0L Holden Commodores

[eb2fairmont]

Well I'm sure if they replcaed the spindly stock conrods with something that will allow the BOSS to rev it'd be no problem.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

*NOBODY* would by such a big wasteful engine these days would they? ;)

Except us old blokes, with beer enhanced memories of cars from the 70's

[fast66]

Originally Posted by Iphido

Other wise I predict the 300c and the new Holdens coupled with several reinvigorated japanese entries will spell the death of the Fairlane (and LWB) and heavily impact Ghia sales hard. Mean while VE is just around the corner and will seal the fate of the struggling models.

Watch this space! _

[DJM83]

Significantly, it is not the same 6.0-litre engine fitted to the HSV range. Holden's performance-car division has the 6.0-litre V8 that's used in the latest Corvette. The Holden 6.0-litre (the L76) is an engine primarily designed for truck use, according to Drive sources.[/B]

Do i remember Holden ppl sayin that the 4L I6 is nothing more then a truck engine and that the boss engine is also a truck engine?

[slipper]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I thought the 308 was basically a modified small block Chev, similar in design. Holden just took the basic design and changed it to suit their needs. I remember reading that in a History of the Holden V8 that was in Motor mag a few years ago.

The 253/308 do share many key dimensions with the SBC but it was a new design - if it ain't broke don't fix it and all that. Remember that that SBC was almost 13 years old when the 253 came out (circa 1968) and the Aussies used then-new casting techniques (among others) to make the 308 smaller and lighter than the Chev.

[chevypower]

Wasnt the Holden V8 based on the Pontiac V8 which has a wider V angle than the Chevy motor?

[henry 351]

I don't know about a wider V angle, (assuming all V8's are 90 degrees), probably the deck height or something else. I believe the 253/308 was originally engineered to be built as a 350 as well, It's a shame it never happened. Imagine a 350 L34 or A9X...

[jspec_sti]

Hopefully this will snap Ford out of their lethargy. Three years without a power upgrade in a performance car? You think they would have learnt in the '90's (remember when the Windsor landed with 165kW - 170kW EB - EF).

Then the Gen III arrived. The rest is history.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by bladexr8

Hopefully this will snap Ford out of their lethargy. Three years without a power upgrade in a performance car? You think they would have learnt in the '90's (remember when the Windsor landed with 165kW - 170kW EB - EF).

Then the Gen III arrived. The rest is history.

Really? hmm, you've got a short memory then.
From 1973 Ford (and Holden) went backwards in V8 power output for nearly 30 years!! from around 300HP/220KW till it bottomed in the early 90's with the return of the EB series 5.0L at around 145kw?
Then over the next 9 years they slowly climbed back to 1973 power outputs till 2001 with the AU2 XR8 with 220KW and from there went to 250KW with T3 then in 2003 went 260KW with BAXR8 and 290KW with the BAGT,
So they've jumped 70KW in 5 years...
Don't be too quick to throw mud without looking at the whole story...

[Perana]

EB V8 had 165kw...

BTW you cant really compare power outputs from the 70's to ones now... Measuring Standards are a lot different.

Oh and the 253/308 Holden V8 was basically a Mirror image of the 307 Chev motor, Id say there were quite a few differences between them though.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

EB V8 had 165kw...

BTW you cant really compare power outputs from the 70's to ones now... Measuring Standards are a lot different.

Ive read that too but the engine dyno's dont seem to agree, ive seen a reco'd stock std XAGT motor on a modern engine dyno make 310 HP or 225KW and thats almost exactly what it was claimed to have in 1972.
The same engine dyno measured a 2005 SS 5.7l Gen 3 with after market headers @ 255KW... so nothing much has really changed.

[KEV EB XR8]

[QUOTE=Perana XR8]EB V8 had 165kw...

BTW you cant really compare power outputs from the 70's to ones now... Measuring Standards are a lot different.

Fair comment, the cars back then had none or little pollution control to compete with, moving forward to present day they have all these emission controls before they even contemplate power/economy

[4Vman]

There is absolutely nothing common or similar between a Chev and Holden V8 other than the fact they share a 4" bore, same bore spacing, siamesed centre exhaust ports and siamessed inlet ports, the rest is totally different and unique.

[Perana]

They are still more closely related than an XK 144ci is to even an EA OHC I6 let alone the BA I6.... Which have similarities we are constantly reminded about...

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Really? hmm, you've got a short memory then.
From 1973 Ford (and Holden) went backwards in V8 power output for nearly 30 years!! from around 300HP/220KW till it bottomed in the early 90's with the return of the EB series 5.0L at around 145kw?
Then over the next 9 years they slowly climbed back to 1973 power outputs till 2001 with the AU2 XR8 with 220KW and from there went to 250KW with T3 then in 2003 went 260KW with BAXR8 and 290KW with the BAGT,
So they've jumped 70KW in 5 years...
Don't be too quick to throw mud without looking at the whole story...

The old 300hp measurement in gross figures turns out to be 217hp (162kW) using the newer measuring standard. That would make the EB V8 (165kW) more powerful then the old 351 GT's (HO's aside).

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The old 300hp measurement in gross figures turns out to be 217hp (162kW) using the newer measuring standard. That would make the EB V8 (165kW) more powerful then the old 351 GT's (HO's aside).

Steffo,
do yourself a big favour, gain some practical experience before relying on theoreticals, ive seen new and old motors on engine dyno's and i can guarentee you a std 4V cleveland form 1973 makes 225kw in todays money....

[Perana]

And of course your typical engine dyno is ABSOLUTELY accurate....

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

And of course your typical engine dyno is ABSOLUTELY accurate....

Well the same engine dyno had a 2005 GEN 3 SS motor with extractors on it and it showed 255 fwkw, and prior to that it ran in 2 Current V8 supercar engines which were around 450kw so i think ill back my engine builder's dyno as ok....

[MADDER]

Now everybody has had their two-bob to say about the L76...

why hasn't anybody gotten excited by the 6-SPEED AUTO they'll be putting behind it?????

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Steffo,
do yourself a big favour, gain some practical experience before relying on theoreticals, ive seen new and old motors on engine dyno's and i can guarentee you a std 4V cleveland form 1973 makes 225kw in todays money....

Was going by Ford's claims. The 217hp Cobra engine and 300hp XB GT engine being one and the same, measured differently.

PS - Did they make any post ADR27A XB GT's???

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Was going by Ford's claims. The 217hp Cobra engine and 300hp XB GT engine being one and the same, measured differently.

PS - Did they make any post ADR27A XB GT's???

Steffo,
drive both and you'll see, ADR27a was cruel to the cleveland.. I do believe the 351 cobra would be 217HP, they wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding.
The Pre ADR27a XBGT cleveland had different settings for ignition, carb and camshaft compared to the ADR27a XC cleveland.
Most XBGT's had 2V heads and had to comply with ADR27 which was far less restrictive than ADR27a.
Pre 1974 ADR26 4V clevelands were also rated at 300hp, and i can guarantee you 100% its concervative.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by MADDER

Now everybody has had their two-bob to say about the L76...

why hasn't anybody gotten excited by the 6-SPEED AUTO they'll be putting behind it?????

I don't think that will show to VE. There hasn't been any mention of a 6 speed auto for VZ yet.

[jspec_sti]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Really? hmm, you've got a short memory then.
From 1973 Ford (and Holden) went backwards in V8 power output for nearly 30 years!! from around 300HP/220KW till it bottomed in the early 90's with the return of the EB series 5.0L at around 145kw?
Then over the next 9 years they slowly climbed back to 1973 power outputs till 2001 with the AU2 XR8 with 220KW and from there went to 250KW with T3 then in 2003 went 260KW with BAXR8 and 290KW with the BAGT,
So they've jumped 70KW in 5 years...
Don't be too quick to throw mud without looking at the whole story...

Thanks for the history lesson, the 1970's were a bad time for a whole host of reasons. Four cylinder Mustangs?????

My point was that even though V8 power gains were made from 2001 by Ford, they were reactive to Holden and the Gen III. Yes, Ford edged ahead with the release of the BA, but once again they have stopped, while Holden have moved on, first with the LS2, and now with the proposed 6.0 litre Commodore engine.

So, as others have said, Ford have missed 2 golden opportunities (with BA Mk II and now BF) to gradually increase power with each iteration of the model to keep ahead of Holden. Once again Ford find themselves behind in the power numbers which whether we agree or not, have a huge impact in the performance market.

No doubt as overall packages the V8 performance Falcons are far superior to Holden, but sometimes it helps to take the blinkers off and look at things objectively. Holden have progressed while Ford have stayed still, and they have a much slicker marketing machine, make of that what you will.

And please, no more history lessons, I supported Ford through the 1980's when Ford had no V8. I'm grateful for any V8 whatsoever. Fuel injected 6 cylinders just never cut it even against the old 308 Holden V8. Enough said.

[anakha]

Originally Posted by bladexr8

So, as others have said, Ford have missed 2 golden opportunities (with BA Mk II and now BF) to gradually increase power with each iteration of the model to keep ahead of Holden. Once again Ford find themselves behind in the power numbers which whether we agree or not, have a huge impact in the performance market.

No doubt as overall packages the V8 performance Falcons are far superior to Holden, but sometimes it helps to take the blinkers off and look at things objectively. Holden have progressed while Ford have stayed still, and they have a much slicker marketing machine, make of that what you will.

This progression you speak of of has little to do with Holden and much to do with GM. It is unfortunate that Ford USA has been persisting with the mod motor platform for so long but it has been improving.

Ford Australia hasn't been standing still with the I6 either. The XR6 turbo and F6 are about the most attractive Ford models going at the moment.

Give me a great chassis with a decent motor anyday over a crap chassis with a good engine.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by anakha

This progression you speak of of has little to do with Holden and much to do with GM. It is unfortunate that Ford USA has been persisting with the mod motor platform for so long but it has been improving.

Ford Australia hasn't been standing still with the I6 either. The XR6 turbo and F6 are about the most attractive Ford models going at the moment.

Give me a great chassis with a decent motor anyday over a crap chassis with a good engine.

Ford USA has been improving the modular engine though. They bit the bullet and made it a ripper in late 2002, with the 291kW 4.6 Supercharged engine in the 03/04 Cobra's. Made it accelerate faster then the 302kW LS6 powered C5 Z06.

Now the base model Mustang GT's engine gets 3v heads like the Barra230, and has 300hp to the old engine's 260hp. The next Cobra will have a 450hp 450ftlbs blown 5.4.

Nothing wrong with sticking to a paticular engine platform. The problems arise when you don't improve on it. Ford's still doing ok here with their engines, lets just hope we don't have another era like the late 1990s... 185kW XR8s and 220kW SS's.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Ford USA has been improving the modular engine though. They bit the bullet and made it a ripper in late 2002, with the 291kW 4.6 Supercharged engine in the 03/04 Cobra's. Made it accelerate faster then the 302kW LS6 powered C5 Z06.

Yeah, but 291KW from a supercharged 4.6L high-tech DOHC(?) V8? Doesn't seem all that impressive to me. Sure, its an improvement over a Boss 260. But its still pretty ordinary compared to a Jaguar 4.2R at 298KW - more power and less cubes. Let's see it match a BMW 550i with 270KW from a n/a 4.8, then I'll be impressed.

[Skulks back to the mighty 175KW 5.0L Windsor]

[Perana]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Yeah, but 291KW from a supercharged 4.6L high-tech DOHC(?) V8? Doesn't seem all that impressive to me. Sure, its an improvement over a Boss 260. But its still pretty ordinary compared to a Jaguar 4.2R at 298KW - more power and less cubes. Let's see it match a BMW 550i with 270KW from a n/a 4.8, then I'll be impressed.

[Skulks back to the mighty 175KW 5.0L Windsor]

On paper its not impressive... what was impressive is when they started running around 290 Rwkw bog stock. The figures quoted were well below what they were actually getting.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Yeah, but 291KW from a supercharged 4.6L high-tech DOHC(?) V8? Doesn't seem all that impressive to me. Sure, its an improvement over a Boss 260. But its still pretty ordinary compared to a Jaguar 4.2R at 298KW - more power and less cubes. Let's see it match a BMW 550i with 270KW from a n/a 4.8, then I'll be impressed.

[Skulks back to the mighty 175KW 5.0L Windsor]

There's nothing really extra special or high-tech about the Cobra's engine. It's just a 281 cube supercharged V8... which is claimed to produce 291kW 528Nm, but then puts that power to the wheels on a dyno.

Real figures would be somewhere in the 330kW 600Nm range.

The 410kW Ford GT (5.4 S/C DOHC 32v dry-sump alloy V8) has put down like 390rwkW or 400rwkW on dyno's. People are guesstimating the thing really has over 600hp (448kW). Ford USA tends to bs a bit about the power their cars put out, and I like it. Be nice if Ford AU followed the trend... 260kW Boss260 that puts 255 down on the dyno :evil3:

[SB076]

Just read in Goauto news that Holden will be using the L76 at the end of this year. The engine is said to have 5% more power and 7% greater fuel economy, plus it has displacement on demand. Apparently Holden are able to use the Gen III until the end of this year and cars must be badged as 05, but anything badged 06 will have the new engine.

[macca_779]

Gee dude where the hell have you been. Thats what this thread is about.