E49 Chargers

[Kingsley]

Originally Posted by castellan

One has to read all about the why we got the holden V8 over the chev V8 and that rubbish chev 6 cyl junk.
The holden V8 was more advanced than the chev V8 for our conditions it was lighter as well. the chev V8 has the number one cyl on the wrong side for aussie car. the cost involved in making chev engines hear came into it as well and we got the 351 Cleveland in aus because it was finished in the USA.

6 cyl Cortina were rubbish handling because the motor was to far forward and had nothing on the holden 6 as a race motor.

McKinnon blocks mean nothing, only the casting of some blocks are stronger due to metal type regardless of where they were made. and i do not believe the last batch of HG 350 were anything much better than the early HG or HT 350. if anything it would be due to the cam that would make it a faster engine but i have not come across anyone who can confirm that as a fact.

As I said, why would Holden spend a dime on a already obsolete motor surplus to their needs when they were deeply committed to developing their own?

I agree with the 6cyl Cortina, but I was referring to Firth's efforts in successfully developing the 4cyl Cortina GT in the early to mid '60's as opposed to the Falcon of the same era.

[Blem]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Probably another six-cylinder, the F6 :-)
Which is also the only other Aussie muscle car to have an Australian produced engine from the block up. I don't count any of the Holden 308s as muscle cars as they were all so dog slow in standard form that it is downright embarrassing.

Couldn't agree more.
Also Bassxr8 my point was more to your post #99 & following one.
I would say the E49 is a great car & this is a good thread respecting it.
Living in Adelaiade & having mates & their fathers who worked at Chryslers may sway my opinion but not so much that I can't be a Ford man who appreciates other quality Australian made units

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by BluFGXR6

Don't know what 'gung ho' managers have to do with it. Holden committed themselves to the same ****ing contest as Ford and Chrysler. They were all actively chasing the same performance image for the rewards it bought. And like Holden, Ford or Chrysler didn't have open cheque books either. Don't bring a spoon to a gun fight...

I doubt Holden ever considered developing the small block Chev engine locally. The only reason we got the Chev in the first place was as a stop gap measure due to the development of the new Holden V8 being way behind schedule and not available for the launch of the HK series. So why would Holden even want to spend money it supposedly didn't have on developing a very short term, stop gap engine, already obsolete to their future needs even before it was introduced? Particularly when they were devolving their own small block. Besides, it was a moot point by the time the HG arrived.

The decision by Firth to develop the 6cyl Torana over the V8 Monaro for racing would've been greatly influenced in part by the knowledge Holden gained from decades of developing the popular 6 banger from not only themselves, but from the many racers and high performance aftermarket tuners around at the time. Particularly when it's put in a light weight shell like the Torana, which also had better handling and braking than the Monaro. Much like he did with the Cortina over the early Falcon.

With all that in mind, until AMCM finds a time machine or factory fresh, unmolested XW GTHO's and RT/E49's to dyno tune running on cleaner fuel, then go out and re-run the quarter like they did the Monaro 40 years later, the results are debatable, regardless how good the McKinnon blocks were.

Ford had those yank managers, like Al Turner who came from a racing background, and the total performance image.
Holden had JP Felice,, who didn't want to spend the money and saw that the cars were just getting faster and unsafe.

You are forgetting that the Holden V8 wasn't supposed to be developed, the holden engineers who designed it went against their bosses orders.
After all why build it when they could use Chevrolet engines....

The only really not great chev is the 307, was cast too soft, not good for hi performance applications.

Everything is debatable from the muscle car era, that's what makes it interesting.

[CyberWasp]

Hey Charger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZdp9Eavi5g

[Sorted]

I still got mine

[Kingsley]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Ford had those yank managers, like Al Turner who came from a racing background, and the total performance image.
Holden had JP Felice,, who didn't want to spend the money and saw that the cars were just getting faster and unsafe.

You are forgetting that the Holden V8 wasn't supposed to be developed, the holden engineers who designed it went against their bosses orders.
After all why build it when they could use Chevrolet engines....

The only really not great chev is the 307, was cast too soft, not good for hi performance applications.

Everything is debatable from the muscle car era, that's what makes it interesting.

The first of the 'performance' yanks didn't get here til '65 in Bill Bourke. Bourke came after the '64 EH-S4 which AMCM claim started the muscle car fad here.
Harry Firth had the first two GT's Falcon's on the road and working on the XW GTHO before Al Turner ever set foot here in late '68. By then Holden already had already released the 327 GTS Monaro. Debatable on who was first...Depends on your slant on history.

We all know why Holden were desperate to produce their own V8 over importing the Chev. Even back then they feared that someday idiots were going to put Chev badges on Holden's!!! Unfortunately, they failed....

Yup!!

[castellan]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Ford had those yank managers, like Al Turner who came from a racing background, and the total performance image.
Holden had JP Felice,, who didn't want to spend the money and saw that the cars were just getting faster and unsafe.

You are forgetting that the Holden V8 wasn't supposed to be developed, the holden engineers who designed it went against their bosses orders.
After all why build it when they could use Chevrolet engines....

The only really not great chev is the 307, was cast too soft, not good for hi performance applications.

Everything is debatable from the muscle car era, that's what makes it interesting.

The casting of the 307 is fine it's just the small bore that does not cut it with the 327 or 302 for high performance.
Casting metal of the 307 is the same as most chev's as only some blocks are made of a stronger type of cast metals added. holden and ford are the same and only some cleveland blocks are stronger like XE194025 and holden HP race blocks in 308 and 202.

Holden never went against GM orders but pushed for the development of it's own because of what they perceved best for an aussie car and we did not have big cars like in the USA.
Germany was the same with GM Opel as they made the car for there own needs not the USA.

All this rubbish about chev engines being better is hogwash in std form they are gutless as any other holden or ford.

What is the best high performance block of the 5.0L be it holden ford or chev = the windsor 302 in fact.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by BluFGXR6

The first of the 'performance' yanks didn't get here til '65 in Bill Bourke. Bourke came after the '64 EH-S4 which AMCM claim started the muscle car fad here.
Harry Firth had the first two GT's Falcon's on the road and working on the XW GTHO before Al Turner ever set foot here in late '68. By then Holden already had already released the 327 GTS Monaro. Debatable on who was first...Depends on your slant on history.

We all know why Holden were desperate to produce their own V8 over importing the Chev. Even back then they feared that someday idiots were going to put Chev badges on Holden's!!! Unfortunately, they failed....

Yup!!

EH s4


Now HD X2 well perfomance type sort of

No the XR GT 289 was the start of a aussie performance car, end of story.

True mucle car ? The HK-T-G 327 or 350 Monaro could not be consedered a real high perfomance car as in the likes of a XW-Y GT-HO P2 or P3
Never did holden have a worked V8 engine as such for sale publicly from the factory.
The only worked engine holden had was a 6 cyl called XU-1.

Valiant had only the 265 hemi types for what one would call a worked a HP engine.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by castellan

EH s4

Old Norm Beechey did all right in the S4, even if it did mean shifting the cogs on the column......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXR_6_5BKtc

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by BluFGXR6

The first of the 'performance' yanks didn't get here til '65 in Bill Bourke. Bourke came after the '64 EH-S4 which AMCM claim started the muscle car fad here.
Harry Firth had the first two GT's Falcon's on the road and working on the XW GTHO before Al Turner ever set foot here in late '68. By then Holden already had already released the 327 GTS Monaro. Debatable on who was first...Depends on your slant on history.

We all know why Holden were desperate to produce their own V8 over importing the Chev. Even back then they feared that someday idiots were going to put Chev badges on Holden's!!! Unfortunately, they failed....

Yup!!

Like Ford aus failed?

Yup !!

Nice diversion...

[Blue Roo]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Like Ford aus failed?

Yup !!

Nice diversion...

Let me guess MethodX. You have a P.O.S. V6 Dunnydore with Chevy stickers/ badges on it. And you think its faster than a Brocky Special on wet nite, because you can spin the wheels in the rain with the extra 100hp from the wet roads.
What a W***er you are!

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

Let me guess MethodX. You have a P.O.S. V6 Dunnydore with Chevy stickers/ badges on it. And you think its faster than a Brocky Special on wet nite, because you can spin the wheels in the rain with the extra 100hp from the wet roads.
What a W***er you are!

Glass houses cobber.

And I drive a ford actually.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

Let me guess MethodX. You have a P.O.S. V6 Dunnydore with Chevy stickers/ badges on it. And you think its faster than a Brocky Special on wet nite, because you can spin the wheels in the rain with the extra 100hp from the wet roads.
What a W***er you are!

Could you try conversing without resorting to personal insults please ?

[Blue Roo]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Could you try conversing without resorting to personal insults please ?

Ok! Sorry GasOLane.

[pottery beige]

Hey Charger! found these pics lying around workshop today, unknown details



and just because we like old pics



groovy

[Kingsley]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Like Ford aus failed?

Yup !!

Nice diversion...

Huh?? Ford Aus failed where??? Both XW GTHO PH II and early HG GTS 350 were released around the same time...actually a month apart.

But I'll leave it to you. Show me where Ford Aus 'failed' with the XW GTHO PH II against the all conquering and later released McKinnon blocked, HG GTS Monaro 350 'secret weapon' that AMCM are ****ing themselves over?? Find me one factory stock McKinnon blocked HG GTS 350 that's quicker than the Phase II GTHO or mighty R/T Charger E 49 over the 1/4 mile even with the benefit of dyno tuning 42 years later. Where did the 'Macka' blocked HG Munro 'special' ever beat either one on track, including Bathurst???.....I'll give you a hint....it never happened!!!
So you can if, but, maybe and theorize all you like. At the the end of the day the HG GTS 350 is a nice looking stop gap model until the HQ. In fact, I'd love to own one over a HT GTS 350!! But it ain't in the same category as a R/T Charger or XW GTHO PHII regardless of what myths AMCM want to purport ...Like they say in the 'Commodore' coupe ad's....game over.

Yup indeed. But they still did it!!! Still do....

Sorry, no diversion here champ....backed with facts... But there's a time where you need to put the shovel down, especially when you hit rock bottom....here's your chance... Thanks for playing!!!

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by BluFGXR6

Huh?? Ford Aus failed where??? Both XW GTHO PH II and early HG GTS 350 were released around the same time...actually a month apart.

But I'll leave it to you. Show me where Ford Aus 'failed' with the XW GTHO PH II against the all conquering and later released McKinnon blocked, HG GTS Monaro 350 'secret weapon' that AMCM are ****ing themselves over?? Find me one factory stock McKinnon blocked HG GTS 350 that's quicker than the Phase II GTHO or mighty R/T Charger E 49 over the 1/4 mile even with the benefit of dyno tuning 42 years later. Where did the 'Macka' blocked HG Munro 'special' ever beat either one on track, including Bathurst???.....I'll give you a hint....it never happened!!!
So you can if, but, maybe and theorize all you like. At the the end of the day the HG GTS 350 is a nice looking stop gap model until the HQ. In fact, I'd love to own one over a HT GTS 350!! But it ain't in the same category as a R/T Charger or XW GTHO PHII regardless of what myths AMCM want to purport ...Like they say in the 'Commodore' coupe ad's....game over.

Yup indeed. But they still did it!!! Still do....

Sorry, no diversion here champ....backed with facts... But there's a time where you need to put the shovel down, especially when you hit rock bottom....here's your chance... Thanks for playing!!!

Ford Aus has failed... as a company.
Closing in 2016 innit?

Im not disputing the fact that the phase 2 and phase 3 were faster.
I was simply highlighting the untapped potential the 350 Monaro had, and a pity GM decided not to pursue it.

Personally I would like a phase 1, a Windsor ho.

No need to go off on a tangent like a yank neocon.

All the old muscle cars are in the same category and should be revered.
from all 3 companies, well 4 if you include AMC.

[Kingsley]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Ford Aus has failed... as a company.
Closing in 2016 innit?

Im not disputing the fact that the phase 2 and phase 3 were faster.
I was simply highlighting the untapped potential the 350 Monaro had, and a pity GM decided not to pursue it.

Personally I would like a phase 1, a Windsor ho.

No need to go off on a tangent like a yank neocon.

All the old muscle cars are in the same category and should be revered.
from all 3 companies, well 4 if you include AMC.

Yep and Holden, as a company, who are also closing production here too in 2017 must have failed as well?? Put's them and Ford in the same category as Chrysler. But whats that got to do with a HG Monaro allegedly cracking a 14 second quarter mile, or a R/T Charger which the threads about? Besides, last I read both will still be here once local production ceases. Much like Chrysler.

Like the HG Munro, there's potential in ALL muscle cars. Particularly when dyno tuned and tested 42 years later. The point is ???????

Off on a tangent 'like a yank neocon'?? Funny. All I'm doing is providing facts to the claims you make in your posts. You put 'em in there, not me.

Maybe and not quite. But anywho, I'm done here.

[flooded one]

Holden never had a remotely fast car in the 70's if you really think about it.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by wildrider

Holden never had a remotely fast car in the 70's if you really think about it.

you know how I know you talk **** and have never driven anything from the 70s

[flooded one]

considering I used play around with Toranas, a Monaro and hae owned a few kingswood I am one to talk. name a fast car Holden had in the 1970's I cant can you??

[flooded one]

how many Holdens in the 70's pushed 14 second quarters??

[LoudPipes]

All the quick Holden’s I knew back in the ‘70s were modified or to use the term of the day ‘worked’.
Factory stock cars were slow, my SLR5000 disappointed me out of the box.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

All the quick Holden’s I knew back in the ‘70s were modified or to use the term of the day ‘worked’.
Factory stock cars were slow, my SLR5000 disappointed me out of the box.

yes they where. Pottery beige is just upset because I spoke the truth. I hope he realises that I actually like the old Holden's up to the VL Commodore. after that I've never really liked them too much.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by wildrider

yes they where. Pottery beige is just upset because I spoke the truth. I hope he realises that I actually like the old Holden's up to the VL Commodore. after that I've never really liked them too much.

you ain't spoke jack ****, now other than internertz bs please list below from back in the day you've driven

waiting

........

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

you ain't spoke jack ****, now other than internertz bs please list below from back in the day you've driven

waiting

........

probably because I've got better **** to do then going around trolling people. and that's it. I spoke nothing because I wanted to find out peoples opinion about Chargers and I don't have to go back in the day as most of the old **** heaps like your that XA in your profile pic where cheap back 15 years ago. these where the cars I played around with and how I learnt about cars. I'm younger then you but i'm in my 30's. so yes I could get my hands on these cars back in the day when they quite cheap. I've never driven a Charger the closest I got was a Valiant Regal Coupe I was thinking of buying of a mate 14 years ago. My uncle had 351 powered XA coupe. besides having a nice note and looked tough. it was a bucket of ****. I've driven a few Toranas V8 and 6 cylinder. I even driven a gutless sunbird and a UC. the V8 Toranas weren't really all the quick as people like you make out. so I'm waiting for you to tell me all these Holdens that Holden made that ran 14 second quarter miles times??

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by wildrider

probably because I've got better **** to do then going around trolling people. and that's it. I spoke nothing because I wanted to find out peoples opinion about Chargers and I don't have to go back in the day as most of the old **** heaps like your that XA in your profile pic where cheap back 15 years ago. these where the cars I played around with and how I learnt about cars. I'm younger then you but i'm in my 30's. so yes I could get my hands on these cars back in the day when they quite cheap. I've never driven a Charger the closest I got was a Valiant Regal Coupe I was thinking of buying of a mate 14 years ago. My uncle had 351 powered XA coupe. besides having a nice note and looked tough. it was a bucket of ****. I've driven a few Toranas V8 and 6 cylinder. I even driven a gutless sunbird and a UC. the V8 Toranas weren't really all the quick as people like you make out. so I'm waiting for you to tell me all these Holdens that Holden made that ran 14 second quarter miles times??

yo funny bro

srs

[ford man xf]

Which E49 could do 140mph+? According to this article the blueprinted race track versions they could add an extra 1000rpm and get to 130mph which is quick, but you can't match the top end of a V8, even the article acknowledges the Phase 3's


It's a good read: http://www.chargerclubofwa.asn.au/me...asp?iMediaID=7

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Which E49 could do 140mph+? According to this article the blueprinted race track versions they could add an extra 1000rpm and get to 130mph which is quick, but you can't match the top end of a V8, even the article acknowledges the Phase 3's


It's a good read: http://www.chargerclubofwa.asn.au/me...asp?iMediaID=7

a very good article!! I wish i'd read more like that!!

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by wildrider

a very good article!! I wish i'd read more like that!!

I thought so too!
The Chargers were and are a beautiful car but it didn't reflect this on the race track. Most Ford fanatics know Ford at the time of the HO's were underquoting both power and acceleration times (as they still do now) and the Phase 3's were way quicker than what was on paper.