Twilight for the traditional ICE automobile

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Wretched

I guess they would have to with the Daimler Freightliner eCascadia and Volvo range coming out too. Both Daimler and Volvo are also working together on a hydrogen solution for the long term.

Yeah, they need to adapt to the euro changes I guess but also with CARB banning older trucks from California now they can see the writing on the wall.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Alternatives for ICE - E85, ethanol, algal ethanol, biodiesel, algal diesel, fishnchip oil etc etc
For eg, you can get a chip for the good ol Ford inline 6 and run on E85, can be done right now. Makes a difference, Aussie crops/sugar cane, Aussie farmers and Ethanol plants

There's also current development here for Hydrogen as well.
its still a way off ... but it is being worked on feverishly right now.
So that's your future alternative being looking into over the abovementioned other alternatives.

[roddy1960]

I think we all know it's inevitable that the old fossil fuel internal combustions will phase down in the next period of time . For those of us who have never known any different to FF ICE's it's hard to imagine I guess but like everything else change will be gradual so over time we'll just transition as will the car makers that keep building their products .

Kind of happening now .. As each car model is released it's becoming more autonomous right in front of us . Fair enough the engines are largely still IC in 2020/21 but most manufacturers are introducing battery and or hybrid alternatives or suggesting so. Also and the driver aids and features just keep adding in at the same time even with the fully ICE versions . Then as already mentioned there is possible alternate fuel types in the wind.

Makes you wonder how Joe Bloggs will be getting around in 2120 or so though doesn't it ?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Alternatives for ICE - E85, ethanol, algal ethanol, biodiesel, algal diesel, fishnchip oil etc etc
For eg, you can get a chip for the good ol Ford inline 6 and run on E85, can be done right now. Makes a difference, Aussie crops/sugar cane, Aussie farmers and Ethanol plants

Remember when E85 was 20-30cpl cheaper than 98?

Now it's consistently $1.85/L - 20-30cpl higher than 98.

Given you use 30% more by volume unless the availability increases and manufacturers started supporting flex fuel applications by government legislation then it's banished to enthusiast performance application only.

The moment Caltex pulled out of it, United jacked the price up massively.

Remember when we had an industry around LPG?

[kypez]

Couldn't agree with this more. Who gets excited by a Camry engine?!

https://youtu.be/DGjFwZZpxS8

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by kypez

Couldn't agree with this more. Who gets excited by a Camry engine?!

Well, I know someone. As long as it's a V6


I think he made a pretty good point about making all the normal cars electric but still having a few performance vehicles around. I'm sure there will be places where ice cars can drive around for several decades to come. Even if it's just race tracks and other dedicated hobby locations

[kypez]

The Twilight is starting early. I don't understand this car anymore. Its heavier, slower and the extra complexity. Why bother with it?!

https://www.caradvice.com.au/920269/...0kw-and-800nm/

2022 Mercedes-AMG C63: Four-cylinder hybrid to develop 410kW and 800Nm – report

he next-generation 2022 Mercedes-AMG C63 could extract over 400kW from its turbocharged four-cylinder hybrid system.

According to a report in the February 2021 issue of the UK's Car magazine, the next-gen C63 will produce a total of 410kW of power and 800Nm of torque, thanks to the smaller A45 S's 310kW/500Nm 2.0-litre engine and three electrified elements: a 150kW rear electric motor (operated independently of the gearbox), a starter-generator mild-hybrid system and an electrically-driven turbocharger.

Those outputs are 35kW and 100Nm up over the outgoing C63 S – despite half the cylinders, a move dictated by strict new European CO2 emissions rules – and a staggering 35kW/200Nm over the Mercedes-AMG's closest German rival, the new, six-cylinder BMW M3 Competition.

It's unclear whether those outputs will be produced by the 'base' C63, or a higher-performance S model.

However, the electrified power boost comes at the cost of weight, with the hybrid system reportedly adding 250kg of mass, taking the new C63's kerb weight to a hefty 2000kg – over 400kg more than the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, another of the C63's class and performance rivals.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by kypez

The Twilight is starting early. I don't understand this car anymore. Its heavier, slower and the extra complexity. Why bother with it?!

https://www.caradvice.com.au/920269/...0kw-and-800nm/

2022 Mercedes-AMG C63: Four-cylinder hybrid to develop 410kW and 800Nm – report

he next-generation 2022 Mercedes-AMG C63 could extract over 400kW from its turbocharged four-cylinder hybrid system.

According to a report in the February 2021 issue of the UK's Car magazine, the next-gen C63 will produce a total of 410kW of power and 800Nm of torque, thanks to the smaller A45 S's 310kW/500Nm 2.0-litre engine and three electrified elements: a 150kW rear electric motor (operated independently of the gearbox), a starter-generator mild-hybrid system and an electrically-driven turbocharger.

Those outputs are 35kW and 100Nm up over the outgoing C63 S – despite half the cylinders, a move dictated by strict new European CO2 emissions rules – and a staggering 35kW/200Nm over the Mercedes-AMG's closest German rival, the new, six-cylinder BMW M3 Competition.

It's unclear whether those outputs will be produced by the 'base' C63, or a higher-performance S model.

However, the electrified power boost comes at the cost of weight, with the hybrid system reportedly adding 250kg of mass, taking the new C63's kerb weight to a hefty 2000kg – over 400kg more than the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, another of the C63's class and performance rivals.

The Germans are losing the plot, its just becoming to complex. For performance cars just make a choice and stick with one system.

I get hybrids for dailies etc.

Its bad enough maintaining "simple" cars, its going to be costly down the path and IMO humanity has lost sight of longer term ownership of goods in general. This flys in the face of any sustainability BS they boast from corporate.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The Germans are losing the plot, its just becoming to complex. For performance cars just make a choice and stick with one system.

I get hybrids for dailies etc.

Its bad enough maintaining "simple" cars, its going to be costly down the path and IMO humanity has lost sight of longer term ownership of goods in general. This flys in the face of any sustainability BS they boast from corporate.

I don't mind how the hybrids plug the gap in torque on certain performance cars but the C63s is more a GT car than a Sports car. It makes little sense to me especially when the average user would only do a few laps of a track day at best.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The Germans are losing the plot, its just becoming to complex. For performance cars just make a choice and stick with one system.

There is an expectation that the engine be desirable. A 4-cylinder isnt. So they add hybrid tech to crank the power as a marketing compromise.

It's completely logical they would do this. Nobodys going to pay $150k for a 300kW 4-cyl C63.

[Falcon SXR8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

IMO humanity has lost sight of longer term ownership of goods in general. This flys in the face of any sustainability BS they boast from corporate.

This 100%, the amount of waste from people wanting the latest and greatest, the whole shift to a throw away society just makes me shake my head. Most people harping on about electric vehicles couldn't give a stuff about the environment, they just want a shiny new toy.

[Bossxr8]

The next C63 has just completely lost it's appeal. People buy it cause it's a loud, brash, V8 powered thug.

Who the hell wants a 4 cylinder hybrid version? Way to completely avoid what the buyer wants.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The next C63 has just completely lost it's appeal. People buy it cause it's a loud, brash, V8 powered thug.

Who the hell wants a 4 cylinder hybrid version? Way to completely avoid what the buyer wants.

Teslaites

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Teslaites

Why would they want a Hybrid?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[kmav23]

Hybrids have a limited market time frame until max 2025.

After that the fall in EV prices, technology improvements with range increasing and widely available charging stations will make hybrids pointless.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by kmav23

Hybrids have a limited market time frame until max 2025.

After that the fall in EV prices, technology improvements with range increasing and widely available charging stations will make hybrids pointless.

Not in Australia. We don’t have the infrastructure and won’t have it by 2025 to support EV’s. I’m hoping I’m wrong as my fiancé wants a Mustang Mach E when/ if they land here.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The next C63 has just completely lost it's appeal. People buy it cause it's a loud, brash, V8 powered thug.

Who the hell wants a 4 cylinder hybrid version? Way to completely avoid what the buyer wants.

The average AMG C63 driver has one continuous eyebrow, wears Adidas and has a taxable income consisting of Jobseeker payments.

They won't be buying no 4 cylinder C63

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The next C63 has just completely lost it's appeal. People buy it cause it's a loud, brash, V8 powered thug.

Who the hell wants a 4 cylinder hybrid version? Way to completely avoid what the buyer wants.

Did they really have a choice? The ever increasing regulation around CO2 emissions drives a lot of these choices.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I'm the least convinced person to be praising EV's but I can not see why the mining industry would be any different to say the building industry trialling this.
New houses (and estates) are built all the time away from grid connection at first, all the local trades either have portable generator power, powering their tools or sun power, charging their battery packs.

On a grand scale......

I can see large sun tracking solar arrays set up to charge the fleets of onsite utes simply driving into a charger parking cradle while they swap between fully charged vehicles and depleted charge vehicles.
Won't happen now but as large companies are given incentives to go EV why wouldn't they.
I mean they are saving money cutting jobs with fully automated equipment this would be just another step beyond that especially as most of them would probably like to claim carbon credits.

Using EVs underground would be beneficial, until you consider that behind collapse and flooding, the biggest danger underground is fire, and the majority of fires are electrical.

There's also the matter of inertia. We have to provide Utes, often for a single supervisor to drive short distances as very low speed. I've often pontificated that something similar to a golf buggy would be more than adequate.

A majority of LVs are used on dayshift only, so they could charge overnight, but the reality is that they are literally not even a drop in the bucket.
Until such time as battery powered haul-trucks become viable, there's no real point.

Furthermore a lot of mines are powered by diesel power.

I worked on the project to build what was then the largest off-grid solar power installation in Australia...
And it was a complete disaster, talk about your White-Elephants.
I can only assume that our domestic grid is much more tolerant of dirty power? Or that the amounts being fed in are relatively small? Any time we tried to take the solar farm above about 30% output, it tripped the whole grid.
Needless to say they also wasted millions on sea-container battery-packs, that were complete duds. Last I heard they had given up on those.
We ended up having to expand the Diesel powerhouse to cover, and pay a premium for nighttime power.

[Sprintey]

The C63, wow, that's going to make the current V8 ones collector muscle almost instantly.

Might as well go full electric for performance now if not done beforehand.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The next C63 has just completely lost it's appeal. People buy it cause it's a loud, brash, V8 powered thug.

Who the hell wants a 4 cylinder hybrid version? Way to completely avoid what the buyer wants.

If they made it a V8 hybrid I could accept it. 4 cylinder is just not right. Something like an AMG needs more than just power.

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

This 100%, the amount of waste from people wanting the latest and greatest, the whole shift to a throw away society just makes me shake my head. Most people harping on about electric vehicles couldn't give a stuff about the environment, they just want a shiny new toy.

You can't consume your way out of environmental issues. Some will try to tell you that you can.
Sure electric cars are better for the environment. But so is not buying a new cars every 5 years. When I was a kid hardly anyone in my family or close family friends bought new cars. Now everyone has one.

[jpd80]

We're not going to cure all the ills of our society by a shift to electric vehicles but
maybe it will serve as the first step in people realising that we don't have to do /buy
the same things our parents and grand parents did.

Wer'e actually at a crossroads where many people now question the need to be part of
the daily grind of commuting to the centre of our cities just to do office work - that's insane.
the whole reason for having a central business district was to position most businesses in
close proximity to make inter office mail, communications and face to face meetings easier.
A lot of that is not required anymore, hasn't been for a while now but the bug has shown
many that working from home is more efficient and actually does everyone else's favor.

Sorry, got off track there but a lot of common wisdom is being challenged with new ways
to do things, it won't suit everyone's needs but may actually add clarity to who needs to
change and who just needs to keep with systems that needs to say, there's no uniform
answer in a country as vast and diverse as Australia.

Electric vehicles are the answer for carmakers drought proofing themselves against
zero emission regulations caused by operation of their products, the green groups
want vehicle owners to get on board and stop polluting the place, governments are
on board because it makes them look good but, there's one group that will wind up
paying for all of this and that's us, the people that can't avoid paying more for everything.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Wer'e actually at a crossroads where many people now question the need to be part of
the daily grind of commuting to the centre of our cities just to do office work - that's insane.

WFH is still frowned upon in many sectors, I know our management team is 100% against it, you're coming into the office or you're finding another job.

I'm really keen on Nissan's EV - their ePower range, it has a small 3 cylinder engine that acts only as a generator to charge a tiny battery to power an electric motor.

1300km range, 5 minutes to 'recharge' and the cars are around $30K, they're just not offered in Australia.

Nissan Note e-Power

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

WFH is still frowned upon in many sectors, I know our management team is 100% against it, you're coming into the office or you're finding another job.

There's a vested interest in keeping things as they are in terms of maintaining direct control of subordinates, it's a rusted on culture that's hard to shift but for those who do the rewards are great.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Did they really have a choice? The ever increasing regulation around CO2 emissions drives a lot of these choices.

Without knowing what their average emissions targets are, and where they sit with them, then I can't answer that. They are bringing a lot of EV's to market, and hybrids though.

But yes, these average emissions targets are going to kill off a lot of good performance vehicles. The Focus RS has already been killed, and the Renault Sport models are heading the same way.

Kind of sucks really. They should provide an exemption for the top performance model in the range, that it's emissions aren't counted against the cap. But that's just my opinion.

[jpd80]

We’re dealing with a world wide agenda of governments wanting to put ICE vehicles in the mirror as soon as possible, I reckon that all of us will pay for that every which way we turn.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

We’re dealing with a world wide agenda of governments wanting to put ICE vehicles in the mirror as soon as possible, I reckon that all of us will pay for that every which way we turn.

It's really going to bite manufacturers in the bum too. ICE vehicles are way more profitable. And it will take many years for that balance to change.

Ford is investing something like $22 billion dollars into EV's. Just think how many new ICE's they could develop with that sort of money. At least 20.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Without knowing what their average emissions targets are, and where they sit with them, then I can't answer that. They are bringing a lot of EV's to market, and hybrids though.

But yes, these average emissions targets are going to kill off a lot of good performance vehicles. The Focus RS has already been killed, and the Renault Sport models are heading the same way.

Kind of sucks really. They should provide an exemption for the top performance model in the range, that it's emissions aren't counted against the cap. But that's just my opinion.

The other question would be, is AMG treated as a separate manufacturer to Mercedes themselves? I know that Mercedes has bought them out but are they treated as a separate entity and therefore the average emissions?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Wretched

The other question would be, is AMG treated as a separate manufacturer to Mercedes themselves? I know that Mercedes has bought them out but are they treated as a separate entity and therefore the average emissions?

Doubt it. Lamborghini comes under the VW banner for example. Otherwise they probably would have been killed off already under average emissions rules.

They would surely have to be under the Mercedes banner. They are Mercedes AMG after all.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Doubt it. Lamborghini comes under the VW banner for example. Otherwise they probably would have been killed off already under average emissions rules.



They would surely have to be under the Mercedes banner. They are Mercedes AMG after all.

Though Aston didn't and released that Toyota Aston

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk