A Badge Engineered XR8?

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by BENSFPV

Exactly Fords lack of wisdom of the market the most people excluding the brand loyalists will not buy cars that are not better than the opposition.

eg: Holden sportwagon fantastic looking wagon yep sure not much boot space but good looking car with different options Calais V6 V8 or SSV and they sell heaps of them.

Fords equivalent Mondeo yep more boot space and features but old grandma engines cant see young familes wanting to buy this and still feel cool. Then you have the Territory which is a SUV which to me is a different market all together.

Make cars that look good that people want at the right price its that simple and they will sell.

Ford werent suffering a lack of wisdom, theyre suffering a lack of exports and economy of scale. Holden arent out there in the market with thoroughly different LWB cars, sportswagons, $40K V8 sedans and sports utes because theyre smarter.

You cant say Ford had a lack of wisdom for the market by not developing

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Ford werent suffering a lack of wisdom, theyre suffering a lack of exports and economy of scale. Holden arent out there in the market with thoroughly different LWB cars, sportswagons, $40K V8 sedans and sports utes because theyre smarter.

You cant say Ford had a lack of wisdom for the market by not developing

This wouldn't be the Holden that lost huge amounts of money while Ford did not would it?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

I'm going to be controversial here

I'll start by saying Ford (Australia) should never have dropped the V8, however having dropped the V8, they should have never brought it back and stuck to the original plan of turbo-charging the six back in the EA/EB days!

It would have given Ford immediate performance bragging rights over Holden and its 5-litre V8 and blunted the V8-momentum built-up by the GENIII before it was even released - by then we would have had the best part of a decade of Falcon turbo sixes pummeling Holden V8s....and it may have discouraged a generation of performance enthusiasts from the cult-car of the 90's; the Subaru WRX!

The GT should have been left in the past and the XR8 never born.........OK flame suit on

Yep... and I would never have bought a Falcon...

I'm in the group for badge sooking! Because that is the most important thing to all of us. We are all FORD fans... isnt that just a badge as well?! Why is it for some that the FPV badge not really that precious while the Ford badge is? Why did Ford not allow the RS Focus be sold as an FPV?

These things are more than just a piece of plastic on a car...

[KuRT12]

Originally Posted by kypez

Yep... and I would never have bought a Falcon...

I'm in the group for badge sooking! Because that is the most important thing to all of us. We are all FORD fans... isnt that just a badge as well?! Why is it for some that the FPV badge not really that precious while the Ford badge is? Why did Ford not allow the RS Focus be sold as an FPV?

These things are more than just a piece of plastic on a car...

I think you're missing the point.

FPV & Ford are different companies.

It was FPV (NOT Ford) that developed the 5.0L

[kypez]

Originally Posted by KuRT12

I think you're missing the point.

FPV & Ford are different companies.

It was FPV (NOT Ford) that developed the 5.0L

I get that... hence why they probably had last say when the debate of XR8 or GS came up... FPV had more weight...

Doesnt mean I like the situation though... Afterall, Ford could say to FPV, fine, source your own doner cars then...

[FPV GTHO]

FPV and Ford are different, but only 51% different. Some are suggesting now that FPV wanted a change to GS at the last minute, if that suggests FPV have more say then maybe. The original suggestion though was Ford wanted XR8 back, leaving no credible option but for FPV to go with GS again. Everyone of course was first expecting an FPV XR8.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by flappist

This wouldn't be the Holden that lost huge amounts of money while Ford did not would it?

Yeap. It also allowed them to diversify their products and continue to manufacture a broad range of Commodore derivatives, with much more investment in technology inside the car. The same car that is still exported and looking at growing its export markets over the next couple of years, while Ford cut some models from the range, cut some more and delayed investment that has hurt Ford badly this year. As for exports nope. They will import the next Falcon. As Charlie would say Winning!

Holden aren't perfect and the GFC and their parents companies woes, knocked them around, but they are at least in there batting.

You do realise as production numbers are cut and then cut some more, there does come a tipping point. If Falcon and Terri sales don't bounce back then I think this year will see them gone. If they do ok, then three years will see them gone.

There is a pattern here.

Meanwhile Commodore is green lighted for another model cycle.

Falcon should be too, if it had the markets to justify it. Australian sales won't cut it and never would, the trend down in large car sales was apparent for years. Holden went and looked for new markets, Ford cost cutted.

Maybe Ford will make more money, but at the expense of Australian manufacturing. I don't think that is enviable.
Dan

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Yeap. It also allowed them to diversify their products and continue to manufacture a broad range of Commodore derivatives, with much more investment in technology inside the car. The same car that is still exported and looking at growing its export markets over the next couple of years, while Ford cut some models from the range, cut some more and delayed investment that has hurt Ford badly this year. As for exports nope. They will import the next Falcon. As Charlie would say Winning!

Holden aren't perfect and the GFC and their parents companies woes, knocked them around, but they are at least in there batting.

You do realise as production numbers are cut and then cut some more, there does come a tipping point. If Falcon and Terri sales don't bounce back then I think this year will see them gone. If they do ok, then three years will see them gone.

There is a pattern here.

Meanwhile Commodore is green lighted for another model cycle.

Falcon should be too, if it had the markets to justify it. Australian sales won't cut it and never would, the trend down in large car sales was apparent for years. Holden went and looked for new markets, Ford cost cutted.

Maybe Ford will make more money, but at the expense of Australian manufacturing. I don't think that is enviable.
Dan

in your opinion

[KuRT12]

Originally Posted by kypez

Afterall, Ford could say to FPV, fine, source your own doner cars then...

Kill off their sales over a small debate like that?

FPV makes profit for Ford too...?

[flappist]

And if FPV did not build on Falcon then there is a 120% chance that there would never ever be another V8 Falcon as despite all the dribble from the "true believers" the TOTAL number of V8s sold is far far less than any other platform and it would be smarter to sell less cars but make more money.

Ford sell NEW cars not 5 year old second hand cars and the only reason Falcon exists is to make a profit NOT to sell cars, NOT because of heritage and NOT to fight with holden or anyone else.

Every model or platform that dropped below profitability has been canned regardless of how many were being sold.
Example is the wagon, still selling but too expensive to move to the next platform.
Fairlane/LTD sufferd the same fate as did the V8 versions of everything in B series EXCEPT XR8 which, I suspect only continued because it used the same engine as the old GT.

So no FPV Falcon = no V8 Falcon ever again.

Are you sure that is really what you want them to do?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

Are you sure that is really what you want them to do?

i think a fair percentage just want to win the arguments down at the pub (or in the playground)

[kypez]

Originally Posted by flappist

So no FPV Falcon = no V8 Falcon ever again.

Are you sure that is really what you want them to do?

That could be a problem... I was merely saying that I'm sure Ford could put some pressure on FPV as they do on Ford... if thats is what happened...

As stated before, the GS seems like it has a foot in either camp. Give it the full FPV treatment or move it back to Ford. As we saw, the FPV GS isnt selling as well as the low selling Ford XR8...

[Luke Plaizier]

Well, I think there's a reasonable number of people happy with a Badge Engineered XR8. Others want it to be as cheap as it once was, or cheaper.

If Ford can't float the business case to develop an NA XR8 for FG2, then we know that attempting to release a shared GS/XR8 with none-to-minor cosmetic tweaks could at least net them a minor increase in sales with no major R&D outlay.

With the announcement today of the EcoLPI, and the fact that the 5.0 was originally developed for flex-fuel applications, if there WERE to be an SC XR8 - with LPG - I'd buy one. Definitely.

As it is, my current XR8 is up for renewal, and with there being no Ford V8, and the price of fuel still going up, I can't see me getting another V8 UNLESS it is LPG.

And if a die-hard Ford V8 guy like me, who WANTS to get another V8, and made it work before, but now can't, for that reason I can understand why there now may never be another Ford badged V8.


Lukeyson

[KuRT12]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

As it is, my current XR8 is up for renewal, and with there being no Ford V8, and the price of fuel still going up, I can't see me getting another V8 UNLESS it is LPG.

And if a die-hard Ford V8 guy like me, who WANTS to get another V8, and made it work before, but now can't, for that reason I can understand why there now may never be another Ford badged V8.

Lukeyson

Mate exactly same boat, eager for a V8 and love the new 5.0L... just hoping there is the ability to run on LPi / Ethanol like Holden.

I currently have a VE SIDI V6 & a new VE2 SS on e85 would probably be cheaper to run (fuel wise)

Probably will bite the bullet when FGII comes out anyway though.

[jixel 78]

I still dont get the argument that XR8 is so precious. XR6 is the winner for the coveted blue oval badge in Fords eyes, not XRlate. SS is the trophy winner for Holden, much of a muchness. XR8s never out sold XR6s. I`m not so sure about SS and SV6, but SS is the hero car for Holden. XR8 certainly cant hold a candle to XR6,and the hero in the blue corner? XR6 (T).

[flappist]

Originally Posted by KuRT12

Mate exactly same boat, eager for a V8 and love the new 5.0L... just hoping there is the ability to run on LPi / Ethanol like Holden.

I currently have a VE SIDI V6 & a new VE2 SS on e85 would probably be cheaper to run (fuel wise)

Probably will bite the bullet when FGII comes out anyway though.

This is the thing that really cracks me up.

You pay $50,000 for a car that 3 years later is worth only $25k but your purchase is dependent on you save a couple of thousand dollars in fuel regardless of any performance drop or restriction of travel.........

And your saving is based purely on the assumption that the only thing in Australia that is GUARANTEED to go up, indirect taxes, will not go up.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

FPV and Ford are different, but only 51% different. Some are suggesting now that FPV wanted a change to GS at the last minute, if that suggests FPV have more say then maybe. The original suggestion though was Ford wanted XR8 back, leaving no credible option but for FPV to go with GS again. Everyone of course was first expecting an FPV XR8.

Bingo. It was to be an FPV XR8 at the price were seeing now. Ford then thought they would bring out the XR8 so the GS name was brought out. But then sales died in a** for the Falcon with variants of the Petrol I6/I6T still not ready for sale. Now XR8 may not come out anyway cause of the situation going on in sales.

Originally Posted by jixel 78

I still dont get the argument that XR8 is so precious. XR6 is the winner for the coveted blue oval badge in Fords eyes, not XRlate. SS is the trophy winner for Holden

SS is such a good name for Holden that the SV8 was rebadged now as the SS (like Calais is really a Berlina). Remember the SV6 came about due to the Commodore S not selling all that well, but I don't think SV6 is as big a seller as the XR6 has been.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Brazen

having XR8 and GS priced similarly wouldnt be the end of the world

It would be stupid though. It needs to be similarly priced to the last XR8 (assuming similar equipment levels). Just swapping badges isnt going to sell more cars. Drop the price, and the GS immediately becomes overpriced.

The GS was a gamble by FPV that hasnt paid off. The brand simply hasnt the cred required (yet) to be able to sell on the basis of badge alone.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Their (Holdens) persistance and sticking with the V8 has got them (and HSV) where they are today.

Not just that... Holden arent in the habit of ditching models that are selling, then replacing them after a 6-12 month hiatus.

[KuRT12]

Originally Posted by flappist

This is the thing that really cracks me up.

You pay $50,000 for a car that 3 years later is worth only $25k but your purchase is dependent on you save a couple of thousand dollars in fuel regardless of any performance drop or restriction of travel.........

And your saving is based purely on the assumption that the only thing in Australia that is GUARANTEED to go up, indirect taxes, will not go up.

I Paid $40K and its worth 28-30K ATM.

An Ethanol / LPi V8 would (based on the SS-V figures & E85 Price) Would cost me less to run.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by KuRT12

I Paid $40K and its worth 28-30K ATM.

An Ethanol / LPi V8 would (based on the SS-V figures & E85 Price) Would cost me less to run.

So you bought it grossly discounted or ex demo and it is only a couple of years old.

But that is irrelevent as a NEW GS is $55k (and would be the same price with an XR8 badge) and like all falcons will lose about half its new value after 3 years.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by b0son

The GS was a gamble by FPV that hasnt paid off. The brand simply hasnt the cred required (yet) to be able to sell on the basis of badge alone.

Seeing as I've seen more GS (non Ford managers vehicles) then I have GT's I'd say its doing ok.

....

One question is what did HSV's low cost model come with?

[Luke Plaizier]

What point is being presented here with the depreciation?
"Depreciation is high so therefore LPG is a waste of time". Is that it?

Or is it yet another reason why people won't by a V8 Ford, and therefore Ford should not spend any money on R&D for an NA V8?

I see that as yet ANOTHER reason why Ford should consider XR8 badging the GS instead of developing a bespoke model.

We've seen a shift in public perception towards diesels in the last 2-4 years - because diesels are becoming smoooth, quiet and powerful as well as economical aka cheap to run. LPG is already smooth, quiet and cheap to run - add the 'powerful' and will the same happen there too?

Alas, Ford appear to have no money to develop either an LPi or NA XR8 so I guess the whole LPi point is moot anyway.


Lukeyson

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

This is the thing that really cracks me up.

You pay $50,000 for a car that 3 years later is worth only $25k but your purchase is dependent on you save a couple of thousand dollars in fuel regardless of any performance drop or restriction of travel.........

And your saving is based purely on the assumption that the only thing in Australia that is GUARANTEED to go up, indirect taxes, will not go up.

It's like balancing a hamburger and chips, the diet coke makes all the difference....

[Polyal]

I dont think its got anything to do with the badge, its the overall package and pricing.

The GS is a good car, just to expensive for what it is.

[winovin]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I dont think its got anything to do with the badge, its the overall package and pricing.

The GS is a good car, just to expensive for what it is.

It does have to do with the badge - as an FPV it bears FPV's marketing and other overhead costs, which are amortised over a lower volume, therefore each car gets a higher share of overhead, and is thus more expensive than it would be as a Ford.

That's why it is expensive for what it is.

[FPV GTHO]

Would the GS be a better package in most eyes if it simply had the FPV bodykit?

[KuRT12]

Originally Posted by flappist

So you bought it grossly discounted or ex demo and it is only a couple of years old.

But that is irrelevent as a NEW GS is $55k (and would be the same price with an XR8 badge) and like all falcons will lose about half its new value after 3 years.

When i purchased my Manual SV6 (Not SS, or SS-V...) they retailed for $36,990.

Less big dealer discount and a few extras like leather, sunroof & mags it came in at just over $40K?

I understand what you mean though, i have still taken a fairly large dive on price over the 1 year i have it. And i understand what you are saying about worried about fuel cost etc but i drive a hell of a lot, have done 36,000K's in just over a year, and the way i see it whether i buy a fuel efficient six or a thirsty 8 im going to lose that initial investment regardless.

Thats why the importance is placed upon running costs.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Would the GS be a better package in most eyes if it simply had the FPV bodykit?

It would be a step in the right direction to add value.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by winovin

That's why it is expensive for what it is.

Makes me wonder why they bothered. People simply dont aspire to own an FPV enough to fork out the premium for what is basically an overpriced XR8.

You cant sell on badge alone - people look at the total package. Its one reason why HSV continues to sell in the volumes it does, because HSV understands its buyers want more than just a drivetrain.

I'm surprised FPV didnt learn any lessons from Holden's SV8 - poor man's SS, but people didnt exactly rush out to get one.