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07-05-2013, 02:00 PM | #121 | ||
Guess Who's Back?
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You've probably nailed it there, to remain relevant you've to to be seen as indispensable to an organisation. Falcon or Territory don't fit that mould, I saw a left hand drive Explorer on the road the other day, I guess that's our future locked away right there. I do believe things could have been different with different local management but I guess hindsight is a powerful thing.
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07-05-2013, 02:20 PM | #122 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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If every LHD seen coming out Ford was an indication of the future we'd have the full lineup here.
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08-05-2013, 02:47 PM | #123 | |||
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Quote:
I can see why they dropped the wagon, apart from sales it would have required a additional new chassis design when they moved to the FG. Now putting a hatch on to the existing FG would be minimal in cost in comparison. for people wanting more load space by the ute with a cannopy
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08-05-2013, 09:43 PM | #124 | |||
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Pretty sure it’s actually easier to build a wagon than a hatch back? Certainly no harder. NB: I don’t think anybody is actually supporting the proposition of the OP, we’re saying Ford should have BOTH. By it’s own admission, Ford got it wrong. They believed that ALL wagon buyers would move to the Terri, that did NOT happen.
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09-05-2013, 10:57 AM | #125 | |||
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Quote:
if im wrong the longer overhang would still require a different chassis anyway
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09-05-2013, 11:39 AM | #126 | ||
The 'Stihl' Man
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Yes, wagon was LWB/fairlane chassis; hence its demise as the numbers were not big enough to cover future investment.
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09-05-2013, 01:04 PM | #127 | ||
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I reckon the wagon probably shared more with the ute than it ever did with the Fairlane, at least since XE when the sedans wheat coil sprung and the wagon/ute retained leaf springs. I'm not even convinced the AU wagon was significantly updated over the EL wagon in the rear bodywork, the silhouette is near identical and by that time the ute, wagon and Fairlane almost had as many differences as similarities.
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09-05-2013, 01:50 PM | #128 | ||
The 'Stihl' Man
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Cosmetics was a mjor issue as well, a huge cost, hence BF3 being what most people would percieve to be an AU1 wagon with a touch up! Fairlane suffered the same fate really, not enough sales to make it look newer.
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09-05-2013, 04:23 PM | #129 | |||
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Quote:
WHY would they need to build an FG wagon on a different platform or wheel base? The FG is longer anyway. And who wants a "longer overhang"? We're talking about a wagon variant of the FG.
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09-05-2013, 10:12 PM | #130 | |||
Oo\===/oO
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Quote:
This allows for more room, simples. Hence no FG wagon, because it would have blown the FG development to near (or over) the 1 billion mark. If Ford had of done this, the money would have been a large waste...given that LWB development is shared with the Fairlane as well...another model that was lacking in numbers and was trimmed. Remember, the wagon wouldn't just add sales, it would draw sales away from both the Territory and Falcon...in the end you would have had 3 models with roughly the same sales as we have now...and that causes money problems... Notice how there is no Crewmen, Monaro, or 1 tonne commodore? And the sports wagon doesn't meet the space requirements for some fleets...
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09-05-2013, 10:24 PM | #131 | ||
Pity the fool
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Longer that what?? The Falcon wagon was always built on the LWB variant of the Falcon's platform and used the rear pressings from the ute
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica | 1970 XW Falcon | 1971 XY Fairmont | 1973 ZG Fairlane | 1986 XF Falcon panel van | 1987 XFII Falcon S-Pack | 1988 XF Falcon GLS ute | 1993 EBII Fairmont V8 | 1996 XG Falcon ute | 2000 AU Falcon wagon | 2004 BA Falcon XT | 2012 SZ Territory Titanium AWD Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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10-05-2013, 09:08 AM | #132 | ||
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Discussion shows there are many niches even within wagon buyers - some want sporty euro sports wagon in the same mould as commodore sports wagon and some would like a load lugger like old Falcon wagon was.
Not sure if local Ford can explore those niches and how much of that is due to parent company restrictions on what can be developed and produced locally. Holden came up with Monaro ,Sportswagon - it seems to have more flexibility allowed by a parent company. |
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10-05-2013, 09:37 AM | #133 | ||
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I don't see it? as far as i can tell the customer that buys Territory class cars does not consider Station Wagons But honestly the price transition from wagon to terri has become more affordable so, exit the wagon!
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10-05-2013, 09:49 AM | #134 | ||
Pity the fool
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Well we went from a wagon to a Territory, so I can speak from experience of owning both, the Territory makes much more sense as a "whole package". When we were looking at a new car we didn't consider station wagons at all.
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica | 1970 XW Falcon | 1971 XY Fairmont | 1973 ZG Fairlane | 1986 XF Falcon panel van | 1987 XFII Falcon S-Pack | 1988 XF Falcon GLS ute | 1993 EBII Fairmont V8 | 1996 XG Falcon ute | 2000 AU Falcon wagon | 2004 BA Falcon XT | 2012 SZ Territory Titanium AWD Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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10-05-2013, 11:08 AM | #135 | |||
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if it’s no longer LWB and longer overhand then it’s not the wagon anymore. Same wheelbase and overhang with a rear door (with pivot point closed to where Falcons existing roofline ends is going to be a hatch. If you look at the pivot point of Holden’s sports wagon it pretty much behaves as a hatch. Albeit a big one This enables the door to be opened in minimal space, which was one of their chief selling points
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10-05-2013, 11:12 AM | #136 | ||
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I dont know for sure, but im picking sports wagon has same wheelbase and Chassis as Commodore??
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10-05-2013, 11:26 PM | #137 | ||||
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Nope, historically Flacon wagons were built on the longer wheel base to enable the back seat to fold down flat. Now days most cars acahive that by first flipping the squab forward. Quote:
Right, well problem solved then. We just get rid of the Territory, G6, XR6, Mondeos, and Focus; everybody will by XT Falcons and everything will be sweet.
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10-05-2013, 11:43 PM | #138 | |||
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My son is going to be devastated to learn that his Nissan Patrol is really a hatchback. So if we took an FG Falcon, and put a WAGON back on it, that would be what exactly? And who the heck said anything about pivoting the back door near the end of the sedan roofline??? Let me briefly explain HOW you make a wagon. The roof is extended all the way to back, as is the windowline, the sides are filled with glass windows, and a vertical door is fitted at the back. Then tidy it up so it doesn’t look completely butt ugly. In the recent past Ford have gone with a slightly raised roofline, although the current fashion seems to be to drop it ever so slightly towards the rear.
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10-05-2013, 11:55 PM | #139 | |||
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Obviously, you know more about cars then FoMoCo! Obviously the market analysts and product research departments, (that have access to pages of sales data, profit margins, projected costs, projected sales, development costs) and engineers (people who take the pretty pictures and build things out of, who work out where internal structures can be redesigned, where new joins are made, test suspension function etc) have got it all wrong! Can you please tell us how to build a V10 coupe as well?
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12-05-2013, 05:51 PM | #140 | |||
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This is why it IS totally possible to have a spacious wagon based off the sedan wheelbase... like a new 'top hat' without so much money in development cost. Oh well. |
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12-05-2013, 05:54 PM | #141 | ||
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No, it wasn't. Also pretty sure it had its own rear pressings, especially since AU utes onward and their separate rear 'tub'. I think even the tailgates were unique?
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12-05-2013, 06:45 PM | #142 | ||
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While I am at it, a little history with specifications:
XK Falcon sedan, wagon, utility, panelvan: wheelbase 2781mm/109.5 inches. Ford US also had a 'ute' with a longer rear overhang, based on the Falcon platform. Ford of Australia developed the ute and panelvan variants here with a shorter rear overhang as they felt the US design would scrape its rear in Australian conditions. XL Falcon sedan, wagon, utility, panelvan: wheelbase 2781mm/109.5 inches XM Falcon sedan, wagon, utility, panelvan and hardtop: wheelbase 2781mm/109.5 inches XP Falcon sedan, wagon, utility, panelvan and hardtop: wheelbase 2781mm/109.5 inches Notice how they are springing multiple variants off one simple wheelbase? XR Falcon sedan, wagon, utility, panel van: wheelbase 2819mm/111 inches. XT Falcon sedan, wagon, utility, panel van: wheelbase 2819mm/111 inches. XW Falcon sedan, wagon, utility, panel van: wheelbase 2819mm/111 inches. XY Falcon sedan, wagon, utility, panel van: wheelbase 2819mm/111 inches. Not sure if XY 4x4 ute got a different wheelbase (by a tiny amount) with the different underside setup. Shortly after the XR, the ZA Fairlane was introduced, with the idea of producing a smaller locally sourced replacement for the Galaxy with as many Falcon parts as possible. This got a 116 inch wheelbase, but the wagon did not. One way to look for this is to compare the rear doors and dog leg of an XR-Y sedan, wagon, and the Fairlane. You will see a much larger dog leg on the Fairlane. For XA, Ford put the wagon on the Fairlane wheelbase, and it was that way until the demise of both. It was still 116 inches and that's before the 121 inches of the P4 LTD! Brochures reveal the van (and presumably ute) at 116 inches, so this was shared with the wagon/Fairlane. |
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12-05-2013, 07:04 PM | #143 | |||
Rob
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Quote:
i'm confused. also, i can fit more in the boot of my FG sedan than a commodore owner could put in the back of his sportwagon without a cargo barrier. even with one, how often do they get filled that high. with the increase in popularity of suv's, many families went down that path, as its much much easier to load kids in at that level than to bend down and in to do up seat buckles etc. apart from a short honeymoon period that nearly all new models enjoy, the sportwagon largely cannibalised sedan sales, so much so that ford started claiming victory over the 6cyl sedan large car sales. |
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12-05-2013, 09:36 PM | #144 | |||
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In comparison, the Commodore sportswagon was a stroke of genius. |
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12-05-2013, 10:53 PM | #145 | |||
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Now, that was either due to former Commodore wagon owners buying sedans as an intirem measure while Holden developed the new Wagon or the new Sportwagon effectively split existing Commodre sales in two.. Just a thought but had Territory been built on a longer wheelbase like the S/W and slightly more rear over hang too, several things become possible: - As a three row SUV, the Territory becomes far more usable - Increased cargo space with 2nd and 3rd seats down becomes very impressive - It becomes a genuine Stationwagon replacement in every practical way. - The overall length of a LWB Territory would become no worse than a CX-9 and much more usable. Last edited by jpd80; 12-05-2013 at 11:01 PM. |
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21-05-2013, 09:25 AM | #146 | ||||
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Quote:
Its irrelevant to the post but if you can design one without changing the current subframe I would love to see your drawings.
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