HSV VF GTS performance figures.

[mr_xlr8]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

Actually, As a GT owner you should be disgusted your more powerful (at the wheels) ford gets its butt handed to it by a less powerful and butt ugly commodore. In every way, shape and form.. If it was still stock of course.

Take this from a guy on his 2nd 335 GTP.
THE GTS IS NOT QUICKER FROM A SET OF LIGHTS AT ALL.
My mate flogged one around a race track too with a tune. Great package no doubt. However mate I would not take it over a GT on performance alone no way.

[sexyxe]

Originally Posted by mr_xlr8

Take this from a guy on his 2nd 335 GTP.
THE GTS IS NOT QUICKER FROM A SET OF LIGHTS AT ALL.
My mate flogged one around a race track too with a tune. Great package no doubt. However mate I would not take it over a GT on performance alone no way.

I don't see how when two drivers factor into an equation a fair comparison can be made. When I used to track my R6, I would regularly/often beat he 750 and 1000cc crowd on newer and more expensive rides purely based on *ahem* my awesome skill.

I'm sure a lot of these drag times and track times could go both ways if you swapped the crews over.

[mr_xlr8]

Probably should be noted these LSA engines are W2A intercooled. FPV are not.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by mr_xlr8

Take this from a guy on his 2nd 335 GTP.
THE GTS IS NOT QUICKER FROM A SET OF LIGHTS AT ALL.
My mate flogged one around a race track too with a tune. Great package no doubt. However mate I would not take it over a GT on performance alone no way.

Regardless of which car is fastest, I think the following is worth considering:-

Lets say 2 identical GTP's (car 1 and car 2) with exactly the same performance make absolutely identical perfect launches, and car 1's driver starts just a fractional 3 tenths of a second earlier than car 2.
Then with that situation expect car 1 to be around 1 car length ahead at 60 km/h, about 1.7 lengths in front at 100 km/h, and at the 1/4 mile point about 15 metres ahead. At least 3 car lengths.

On top of that allow for different launch techniques, one lane having more grip than another, different loads in cars, different tyre condition, and a host of other variables, and I think it's reasonable to say that traffic light drags often tell very little.

But they can tell a policeman to chase and pull the cars over to be impounded for a while.

[mr_xlr8]

OK then...let me say it another way, on a particular day, a bloke turned up with a tuned GTS auto and ran 12.8 down the strip, on that same night dl86 went 12.4 in a stock auto, i ran 13 flat in a manual GTP couple this with 2 instances where drivers.of the GTS feel the need to ask "thats not stock ??" At the next lights. My point in all this is the GTS is not quicker then a GT IN real life situations that I have been exposed to.
add the fact that it gets decimated on the dyno makes me want to tell people who are happy to listen that the GTS is not a wow power machine of the showroom floor, certainly not a hell of alot more then the GT Falcons.

[arronm]

The difference is the GTS has the goods to up the power. Do the same on a GT and bits start breaking.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by mr_xlr8

OK then...let me say it another way, on a particular day, a bloke turned up with a tuned GTS auto and ran 12.8 down the strip, on that same night dl86 went 12.4 in a stock auto, i ran 13 flat in a manual GTP couple this with 2 instances where drivers.of the GTS feel the need to ask "thats not stock ??" At the next lights. My point in all this is the GTS is not quicker then a GT IN real life situations that I have been exposed to.
add the fact that it gets decimated on the dyno makes me want to tell people who are happy to listen that the GTS is not a wow power machine of the showroom floor, certainly not a hell of alot more then the GT Falcons.

In making my last post I was just trying to get across the message about how useless traffic light drags can often be, but to be honest I think the HSV is probably the slightly quicker car, with higher average power across it's usable rev range.

I'm neutral, I've got an FG XR6T Auto and I like both the Ford and HSV forced induction V8's.

I think probably the most definitive, transparent, and accurate GTS vs MIAMI test has been done by Jesse Taylor, the editor of EVO AUSTRALIA MAGAZINE and it can be found on the website. Just google HSV v FPV stripped bare.

He compared a manual GTS against a manual GTF (4.34/12.53 sec 0-100/400 metre times for GTS, and 4.46/12.66 GTF).

Nowhere for either side to hide on this test I'd say. Exceptional detail in the article and his driving skills certainly can't be criticised. As far as I know, he got the fastest magazine test time out of a manual RSPEC when he was the Deputy editor of WHEELS.

One point to note is that GPS measured 400 metre test times (that the Magazines publish) can commonly be about 3 tenths slower than Drag Strip 1/4 mile time slips. That's because of the rollout that you can get at a dragstrip. EG my stock FG XR6 T got a 12.731 timeslip at WSID with a second gear launch, but the Racelogic GPS measured 400 metre time on the run was 12.97 seconds. On the next run I used Drive (1st gear) with lower stall revs and got a 12.509 second timeslip, but the GPS measured time was a slower 12.84 seconds.

A lot of people don't take that into account.

[HULK_I6T]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

IMO mongrel is exactly that 70s thing you described, a car that's hard to control, a car that you would be scared to let your dear old gran drive. The amg you described is just a put your foot down and let the electronics take care of the rest type car, its a modern refined car that gets its power down well, handles well and if any mongrel tries to rear its ugly head its electronic trickery shuts it down.

Thats what you pay for with AMG.... mongrel that gets to the road, not up in smoke..

Fpv/hsv cars have always had great performance, not that far behind AMGs or m-series bmws, but they always struggled to get it to the ground. Fpv gets decent performance at strip but its always with tyres, lightened etc.. the AMG gets its power down every minute of the day in real world conditions.. thats what you pay for.

The new hsv gts is australias best ever effort to build a powerful street car that gets its power down properly to the ground AMG style..

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by HULK_I6T

Thats what you pay for with AMG.... mongrel that gets to the road, not up in smoke..

Fpv/hsv cars have always had great performance, not that far behind AMGs or m-series bmws, but they always struggled to get it to the ground. ..

I generally agree what you are saying about AMG C63 and the ability to get power down, whereas in the FGX XR8 it is a more tenuous affair.

But, in terms of FGX XR8 not that far behind say BMW, I know my FGX XR8 (only mods being BMC air filter and 2 oil separators) has much more punch and grunt than the BMW M3 4 litre v8 with sports exhaust.

Another thing that goes against the AMG is the auto- just not the same as snapping the FGX Xr8 manual in gear with clutch and direct connection, no torque converter and all that slight disconnect you get through an auto transmission. Just feels so connected between the accelerator/engine/rear wheels in terms of power being direct.

Now need to work on bushes and suspension to tie down the rear end of the FGX XR8. But what a great package to work from- for $60,000 on the road-insane value.

[GTMOND]

Hmm time to move on from this thread I think, for me. It's just never ending. Both good Australian cars, one built on a very tight budget, the other a bit more freedom with cash.
For me I like the GT but each to their own.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Another thing that goes against the AMG is the auto- just not the same as snapping the FGX Xr8 manual in gear with clutch and direct connection, no torque converter and all that slight disconnect you get through an auto transmission. Just feels so connected between the accelerator/engine/rear wheels in terms of power being direct.

So you're saying the naturally aspirated outgoing model of the C63 which does a lazy 4.4 seconds to 100 on skinny 18x255 rear tyres with its seven speed mutli-clutch transmission with comfort, sports, sports + and manual modes upshifting at full throttle in 100 milliseconds is just not the same as snapping the FGX XR8 manual in gear with clutch and direct connection, no torque convertor and all that slight disconnect you get through an auto transmission?

You must say the same of almost all serious performance cars on the market as manuals are all but dead in the world of fast cars and you don’t hear reviewers talking of any disconnection or complaints from the owners of disconnected auto XR8's

I can only imagine how mongrel the new twin turbo C63 is going to be with its disconnected auto.

[pottery beige]

thread needs more benches raced

[2242100]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

So you're saying the naturally aspirated outgoing model of the C63 which does a lazy 4.4 seconds to 100 on skinny 18x255 rear tyres with its seven speed mutli-clutch transmission with comfort, sports, sports + and manual modes upshifting at full throttle in 100 milliseconds is just not the same as snapping the FGX XR8 manual in gear with clutch and direct connection, no torque convertor and all that slight disconnect you get through an auto transmission?

You must say the same of almost all serious performance cars on the market as manuals are all but dead in the world of fast cars and you don’t hear reviewers talking of any disconnection or complaints from the owners of disconnected auto XR8's

I can only imagine how mongrel the new twin turbo C63 is going to be with its disconnected auto.

The latest multi clutch and Auto transmission cars are just so hard to beat because of their almost seamless gear changes.

As cars have got faster the ability of drivers to slam the gear stick through hasn't got faster, so I guess the time lost in changing gears is now a pretty significant handicap.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

So you're saying the naturally aspirated outgoing model of the C63 which does a lazy 4.4 seconds to 100 on skinny 18x255 rear tyres with its seven speed mutli-clutch transmission with comfort, sports, sports + and manual modes upshifting at full throttle in 100 milliseconds is just not the same as snapping the FGX XR8 manual in gear with clutch and direct connection, no torque convertor and all that slight disconnect you get through an auto transmission?

You must say the same of almost all serious performance cars on the market as manuals are all but dead in the world of fast cars and you don’t hear reviewers talking of any disconnection or complaints from the owners of disconnected auto XR8's

I can only imagine how mongrel the new twin turbo C63 is going to be with its disconnected auto.

Have you driven an FGX XR8 in auto and compared to manual? Seriously-have you?

Have you driven a naturally aspirated C63 with sports pack? Seriously-have you? Have you changed gears-in sports mode-downshifted and had that pause and delay before there is a response, as you are coming into a corner?

I agree the C63 with auto in super + sports mode is quick on upchanges, faster than a manual, but there is more to things than just that.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by 2242100

The latest multi clutch and Auto transmission cars are just so hard to beat because of their almost seamless gear changes.

As cars have got faster the ability of drivers to slam the gear stick through hasn't got faster, so I guess the time lost in changing gears is now a pretty significant handicap.

Yes- I agree that if you have an auto system involving multi clutch system, assuming the software rev matches revs and listens and obeys to the driver pulling paddles to downshift, and holds the gear no matter what- will outperform a manual.

But to get such a system working properly (and this is not achieved in a C63 or a FGX XR8 auto as those are not automated clutch systems) what is the money we are talking for such exotic gearboxes ....

[2242100]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Yes- I agree that if you have an auto system involving multi clutch system, assuming the software rev matches revs and listens and obeys to the driver pulling paddles to downshift, and holds the gear no matter what- will outperform a manual.

But to get such a system working properly (and this is not achieved in a C63 or a FGX XR8 auto as those are not automated clutch systems) what is the money we are talking for such exotic gearboxes ....

I haven't been able to look through GPS gear change data on any multi clutch systems, but my XR6 T Auto transmission clearly only loses from 1 to 3 hundredths of a second in a gear change and it appears to get 1 hundredth of a second back with a slight surge (that I can't feel) just after the change. I've been able to determine that by looking through my GPS measured acceleration times (kilometre by kilometre) around the speed that the gear change must have taken place on a run (my last car was similar too. It was a 4 speed Auto LS1 Commodore).
It's not easy to find the change point.

It's difficult to get some manuals through a change under 3 tenths and there is even a fractional speed loss during a gear change (say around .2 of a kilometre).

Not knocking manuals though, no problems with unwanted gear changes in the middle of a corner and of course there is a slight power loss in Autos.

[HULK_I6T]

One thing going for the fpv cars.. they are undertyred and let go earlier than need be. They sort of give good drivers some sort of chance to show their skill to correct the situation at moderate speeds. (All whilst the c63/hsv gts is motoring away).

When the c63 lets go its due to way too much speed for the available traction, consequences are devastating... good driver or not, no chance to correct at the speeds it lets go.

[Express]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Have you driven an FGX XR8 in auto and compared to manual? Seriously-have you?

Have you driven a naturally aspirated C63 with sports pack? Seriously-have you? Have you changed gears-in sports mode-downshifted and had that pause and delay before there is a response, as you are coming into a corner?

I agree the C63 with auto in super + sports mode is quick on upchanges, faster than a manual, but there is more to things than just that.

I’ve not driven the new XR8 but I have driven the FPV FG Mk2 GT in manual and the C63 in auto and I’d agree with Loudpipes given that all he is really saying is that modern autos perform well and don’t necessary disconnect you from the driving experience and it is a fact, manuals are dying out as the preferred choice for modern performance cars.

Personally I’m a manual man through and through and if it isn’t the wife’s car and there is a manual variant, a manual it will be.

I had a VE Calais and the down and up shifts in manual mode were so slow you had time to duck out and watch a movie, I wouldn’t say the same of a C63.

I’ve never noticed that delay you’re talking about when down shifting coming into a corner and I’ve driven a few difference year models of the outgoing C63 model.

I have had them refuse to downshift when the entry speed into the corner was too high for the lower gear I was trying to engage and caused a delay as the software over rides to protect the engine in much the same way as it does when it kills power if you hit the rev limiter without changing up.

But that problem is driver error or bad driver timing, not the fault of the vehicle.

Also maybe the C63 you were driving wasn’t operating at its best.

In any case Loudpipes opinion is valid, autos today aren't necessarily disconnected from the drive and are a lot of fun if you're in a rush.

Manuals and autos have their for and against, some are also well designed and some not so good and drivers will always have their preferences.

Only when they start releasing new cars with an auto trans that can be switch to manual mode which then also requires the use of a foot clutch and gear stick will the argument be put to rest.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by b0son

You're not seriously going to argue a GTF is better designed/built are you? Its better bang for buck, no question, possibly the best bang for buck car ever released in Aus. But the GTS is comprehensively better engineered, from the chassis/platform (VE/VF chassis has had so much more put into its development than FG its not worth arguing), right thru to engine/driveline. Does the GTS have to restrict its engine such that the full output is only available some of the time? That's as close to an admission as you'll get from Ford that its car is not quite up to the task. That doesn't make its performance credentials any less. Its akin to the Nissan GTR, you cant get the sorts of 0-100 times it does anything approaching consistency, but that doesn't make it any less a hero car.

He claims that it is the best built aussie car...EVER...not just comparing it to a GTF.

Big statement to say best car ever built.

We will see in about two years what issues it has had.

It won't win it on build quality, it's a commodore FFS.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Express

I’ve not driven the new XR8 but I have driven the FPV FG Mk2 GT in manual and the C63 in auto and I’d agree with Loudpipes given that all he is really saying is that modern autos perform well and don’t necessary disconnect you from the driving experience and it is a fact, manuals are dying out as the preferred choice for modern performance cars.

I’ve never noticed that delay you’re talking about when down shifting coming into a corner and I’ve driven a few difference year models of the outgoing C63 model.

I have had them refuse to downshift when the entry speed into the corner was too high for the lower gear I was trying to engage and caused a delay as the software over rides to protect the engine in much the same way as it does when it kills power if you hit the rev limiter without changing up.

But that problem is driver error or bad driver timing, not the fault of the vehicle.

Also maybe the C63 you were driving wasn’t operating at its best.

.

To be clear, I have driven a few naturally aspirated C63's. One basically brand new, another with 9,000 on it with sports pack. Both cars basically like new.

I drove both very hard, one extensively over 12 hours, with everything between very high speed runs on curving uphill bends, to a 5 minutes blast through a section of road with lots of corners with no other cars there.

In my use, there was still on occasion the gremlin delay in downshift and it not following specific instructions on spirited driving.

If you also look at countless reviews of the last atmo C63 there have been numerous reviewers talking about the delay on downshift, which therefore is in line with my experience.

And look-we are talking a matter of degree, I have some footage with me driving going round a right bend at speed, and I paddle down the C63, and it downshifted immediately with power in causing the left rear to flick out left at high speed...but there is the odd occasion IME the gremlin popped up.

In terms of the FGX XR8, I have driven both the manual and auto very hard and I stand by my comments expressed already.

And the autos in the C63/FGX Xr8 are really good, but being a car geek being technical, there is a difference,.

And to me its like the difference between sex with condom and without condom

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Have you driven an FGX XR8 in auto and compared to manual? Seriously-have you?

Have you driven a naturally aspirated C63 with sports pack? Seriously-have you? Have you changed gears-in sports mode-downshifted and had that pause and delay before there is a response, as you are coming into a corner?

I agree the C63 with auto in super + sports mode is quick on upchanges, faster than a manual, but there is more to things than just that.

I don’t know why you feel the need to take such an aggressive tone, I must have struck a nerve for you to feel so threatened by the fast autos.

Seriously, seriously, seriously my post wasn’t about which cars or transmissions are better, it was about the fact an auto equipped performance car can be very engaging and the trend is moving very quickly away from manuals.

I think it was Ferrari who said they were no longer offering manuals because their customers no longer bought them.

Anyway to answer your questions, no I’ve never driven a new XR8 in manual or auto but I don’t need to as my comment wasn’t about the need to drive every model of car to know todays autos do a good job.

Yes I have driven a C63, the first time was when I was trading in my E63 and the dealer gave me one to take home for two days to see what I thought of it. I decided not to go with it and bought another E63 instead. The second time was at an AMG drive day where I got to experience it and a few other AMGs including the SLS on a track and also to see how they handle in the hands of professionals.

I’ve had 4 AMG’s amongst other cars and I sold the last E63 when I moved back to Australia from the US.

I now have a more sedate C280 for daily duties and a XYGT for fun.

The XY is a manual so I get manuals but I also get why performance cars with auto and dual clutch transmissions are also popular.

I don’t feel the need to haemorrhage over someone liking one over the other.

[fgpsi]

Originally Posted by mr_xlr8

OK then...let me say it another way, on a particular day, a bloke turned up with a tuned GTS auto and ran 12.8 down the strip, on that same night dl86 went 12.4 in a stock auto, i ran 13 flat in a manual GTP couple this with 2 instances where drivers.of the GTS feel the need to ask "thats not stock ??" At the next lights. My point in all this is the GTS is not quicker then a GT IN real life situations that I have been exposed to.
add the fact that it gets decimated on the dyno makes me want to tell people who are happy to listen that the GTS is not a wow power machine of the showroom floor, certainly not a hell of alot more then the GT Falcons.

FG F6 is much faster than all of em in real life situations

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

Seriously, seriously, seriously my post wasn’t about which cars or transmissions are better, it was about the fact an auto equipped performance car can be very engaging and the trend is moving very quickly away from manuals.

.

Hey-did not mean to be rude-just thought you were attacking me about my experiences with AMG C63 being wrong due to either driver error or the cars not working correctly, and so I was responding to those comments by you, and given there was an element of personal in what you posited, I had to respond likewise in my reply.

As I also said, good autos are pretty cool, the AMG C63 is a monster, and the FGX XR8 in auto is also a weapon -I just do not gel with them, and this stems probably truthfully from my initial motoring experiences.

And that's not surprising given as a 17 year old I took the old mans kingswood (auto on the column) tried to hoon, first to red line, FAST into "second" on a corner, shifted into reverse, locked up going 60/70, hit kerb, flipped car on roof, me sans seatbelt fallen onto roof which was sliding along road/gutter and through a small brick wall at 60kph.

So never had an auto since then cause I like to have the clutch pedal to disengage....so take what I say on the subject with a pinch of salt.....

[nz13boy]

Originally Posted by mr_xlr8

Take this from a guy on his 2nd 335 GTP.
THE GTS IS NOT QUICKER FROM A SET OF LIGHTS AT ALL.
My mate flogged one around a race track too with a tune. Great package no doubt. However mate I would not take it over a GT on performance alone no way.

A traffic light "race" is hardly a comparable comparison. Way to many variables with differing driver skill levels, driver intentions, driver reactions etc to name just a few.

Same goes for the race track flooging. Put the same driver in two different cars, as Motoring mags etc do, compare the two, and in 100% of reviews I've read, the Gts comes out on top. Numero uno, Number one. No traffic light duels or race track floggings with two (skill level) unknown drivers needed.

Take it from someone who's driven a Vf GTS (a benefit of owning a R35 GTR is everyone wants to "swap") and once owned a 355 gtp and sold it because (in stock form at least) it wasnt as quick as my f6, handled just as crappily as my F6 (although for a Grand tourer, its pretty good, but as a "perfomance sedan" its ordinary in my opinion) and wasnt being used as I genuine thought a supercharged Gt should of been quicker.

Virtually EVERYONE whos compared the GT/Gtf have concluded the the Gts is FASTER, CORNERS BETTER, BRAKES BETTER and obviously better specced. And all this done with less Rear Wheel Kw then the ford.

[wicksy]

blah blah blah blah blah

[zilo]

Both cars easily get absolutely flogged by the Tesla Model S.

(515kW and 930Nm of torque)

Less rattles from the dashboard and trim too....

That goes for the C63 and F6 as well....


http://www.caradvice.com.au/318983/t...for-australia/



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